I'm officially done with Rocco

[USAFChief]

Today's managerial misconduct (PHing Vazquez) moved me over the edge.

Just simply can't stand him routinely getting outmanaged. And today was freaking ridiculously bad.

[notoriousgod71]

Welcome to the party.

[Craig Arko]

 

[mnfireman]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Today's managerial misconduct (PHing Vazquez) moved me over the edge.

Just simply can't stand him routinely getting outmanaged. And today was freaking ridiculously bad.

I'm more concerned about the BP mismanagement. Twice this week the team lost games that were tied going into the 9th by not using their best BP option against the top of the other teams line-up.

[Mike Sixel]

I've been unhappy about this for weeks. Welcome to the club. 

[Nine of twelve]

Goodbye, everyone. We’ll miss you.

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Today's managerial misconduct (PHing Vazquez) moved me over the edge.

Just simply can't stand him routinely getting outmanaged. And today was freaking ridiculously bad.

I’m with you on the question of pinch hitting Vazquez but I can’t go there with being out managed.  He got what he wanted there.  If we can demonstrate that he was surprised at the pitching change I’m all ears.  Julien is objectively horrible against lefties so leaving him in could also be framed as managerial misconduct. 

Correa was obviously not available so he chose the slightly less worse option. Julien .452 OPS against lefties and Vazquez .545 OPS against righties but a lot more familiar.

I get that it’s the straw that broke the proverbial back but it’s not a hill worth dying on.  There will be a ton of odd lineup calls down the stretch so it’s probably best not to get wound up about them.  

[Rod Carews Birthday]

And if he gets a hit, Rocco's a genius.  Watching baseball (and managing baseball) is like the stock market.  You can't jump off a cliff at the end a bad day because tomorrow's another day (and another game) and that one might turn out as far to the good as the previous one to the bad.  I'm certain there isn't a manager that any of us would agree with on every call, but he did get them this far and that is a lot more than nothing.  Did I love the call?  Nope, but do we really know what Rocco was trying to find out/do by doing it?  Also no.  It's a marathon.  Not a sprint. 

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, Rod Carews Birthday said:

And if he gets a hit, Rocco's a genius.  Watching baseball (and managing baseball) is like the stock market.  You can't jump off a cliff at the end a bad day because tomorrow's another day (and another game) and that one might turn out as far to the good as the previous one to the bad.  I'm certain there isn't a manager that any of us would agree with on every call, but he did get them this far and that is a lot more than nothing.  Did I love the call?  Nope, but do we really know what Rocco was trying to find out/do by doing it?  Also no.  It's a marathon.  Not a sprint. 

We're in sprint mode at this point. He learned nothing about Julien.... So I'm not sure your point?

[Rod Carews Birthday]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

We're in sprint mode at this point. He learned nothing about Julien.... So I'm not sure your point?

Sprint mode happens when the playoffs start.  Since it doesn't look like there is any way that the Guardians or the Tigers overtake us, right now we are just positioning ourselves for the playoffs.  The end of the world isn't coming.  In fact, I'm pretty sure there is going to be a lot of subpar baseball played over the course of the rest of the regular season.  People are going to be rested.  Things are going to be tried.  Who knows? 

Having a veteran bat that is capable of pinch hitting in a situation like that could be useful down the road.  My guess is that is what he was after.  We can certainly debate whether that pinch hit was going to come from the backup catcher, but YMMV.  As for Julien -- terrific player,  I really like him -- he's a rookie.  He's not that delicate.  If he was offended in some way, maybe he uses it as motivation.  Again, I probably wouldn't have made the call, but at some point I think I let the manager manage on his own, since he isn't calling me in the near future. 

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, Jocko87 said:

I’m with you on the question of pinch hitting Vazquez but I can’t go there with being out managed.  He got what he wanted there.  

Yeah, I don't think so. 

But if true, I'd say that's maybe worse. 

There is no world in which I think Vazquez is a better option than Julien. And I'm a guy who strongly believes in the platoon advantage. 

For me, it IS the straw that broke the camel's back. 

Others may disagree. 

[SwainZag]

If that's the hill you want to do on, then go for it.  Neither were good options. FWIW, I would have hit Julien, but wouldn't have expected much.

 

 

[PseudoSABR]

LoL. "Officially."

[rwilfong86]

Let's start an official club with t shirts and everything. 😁

[stringer bell]

28 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Yeah, I don't think so. 

But if true, I'd say that's maybe worse. 

There is no world in which I think Vazquez is a better option than Julien. And I'm a guy who strongly believes in the platoon advantage. 

For me, it IS the straw that broke the camel's back. 

Others may disagree. 

I think it was the wrong move and said so at the time. Is it managerial malfeasance— I’m not at that point. The better move was to let Julien face the lefty, but it was a choice of two low-percentage options. 

[D.C Twins]

I've been done for 2 years-ish now with Rocco. 

No team out there covets Rocco as a manager. They secretly root for us to keep him as long as possible. 

[stringer bell]

This follows Rocco’s trend, which started on Opening Day, of pinch hitting with the platoon advantage, as soon as the third or fourth inning. It has worked sometimes, but I always feel that emptying the bench early is a net disadvantage unless runs are produced, especially if the defense is weakened. 

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

We're in sprint mode at this point. He learned nothing about Julien.... So I'm not sure your point?

And never going to learn anything about Julian when he continually pulls him at the sighting of a lefty.  Also cant be good for a rookies confidence to get PH for in a crucial situation in favor of a sub par hitter like Vasquez.

[tony&rodney]

50 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Yeah, I don't think so. 

But if true, I'd say that's maybe worse. 

There is no world in which I think Vazquez is a better option than Julien. And I'm a guy who strongly believes in the platoon advantage. 

For me, it IS the straw that broke the camel's back. 

Others may disagree. 

I believe others do disagree, including Baldelli. Baseball has a long drawn out season that includes numerous substitutions and player usages that seem at odds with what makes sense to one person or another. A guy like Paul Molitor has forgotten more about baseball than the entire collective understanding of the game of Twins Daily readers, which naturally includes me as well.  We are actually likely to know more about running a Fortune 500 company than how to manage an MLB team.

Sometimes it seems that some baseball fans are more attuned to football and the immediacy of wins each week than the slog of a long season. I don't follow football at all so maybe that is a bad comparison and I don't mean to offend anyone at all. Baseball is different in how a team (manager/front office) needs to view the larger picture. MLB is totally different than the minors, college, or amateur ball. Heck college is more like town ball than professional baseball. Despite playing and managing hundreds of games I can confidently say that I am in no position to suggest what a MLB manager should or should not do in any given situation. Of course I have my opinions but these are just for entertainment purposes. Nobody is going to pay me millions to make a decision on managing a MLB team. It is best to just enjoy the competition and entertainment.

Arozarena hit a monster home run and Tampa Bay won. The Twins had their chances. Tampa Bay had their chances. Each team made a few mistakes too. It was a competitive game. There is another game tomorrow. The Twins really should put their feet down on the White Sox.

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Yeah, I don't think so. 

But if true, I'd say that's maybe worse. 

There is no world in which I think Vazquez is a better option than Julien. And I'm a guy who strongly believes in the platoon advantage. 

For me, it IS the straw that broke the camel's back. 

Others may disagree. 

I'm open to the discussion if it is worse or not but I am quite certain he expected a pitching change based on his move. To say that he wasn't flies in the face of everything basic baseball and if so, that would be miles worse than making the actual move.  Had there not been a pitching change in response he's a lucky genius.

As it was, he made the choice that Vazquez against a righty is better than Julien against a lefty. By the numbers, and my eye test, he's correct. I also wouldn't have been upset had he stayed with Julien there.

In a game that matters, Correa (that bench guy, whomever he is) is available.

[Blyleven2011]

6 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Today's managerial misconduct (PHing Vazquez) moved me over the edge.

Just simply can't stand him routinely getting outmanaged. And today was freaking ridiculously bad.

What took you so long , 2019 playoffs moved me way over the edge and yes  He seems to be always out managed  ...

No real answer  , we are stuck with him until FO is relieved  with a pink slip  ...

 

I have never been a fan of Rocco  ...

[JD-TWINS]

5 hours ago, mnfireman said:

I'm more concerned about the BP mismanagement. Twice this week the team lost games that were tied going into the 9th by not using their best BP option against the top of the other teams line-up.

That’s hindsight IMO……Griffin Jax looks like Mariano Riviera most outings. didn’t give up a run for 3 months at one point.

Jax has tremendous stuff & needs to pitch better!

[Seth Stohs]

This @TwinsData twitter chart explains this completely... I get it. I want young guys to be given the opportunity to show they can hit lefties, but to this point, they haven't, and they haven't to some really, really bad numbers. 

Definitely not even close to a fire-able offense... 

 

[insagt1]

43 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

That’s hindsight IMO……Griffin Jax looks like Mariano Riviera most outings. didn’t give up a run for 3 months at one point.

Jax has tremendous stuff & needs to pitch better!

Jax gave up no ER's for one month ...between May 22 and June 23. His ERA is 4.20. He has allowed 13 ER's in his last 15 outings. Mariano Rivera he is not. He HAD real good stuff at one time, but now he has terrible location and that kinda nullifies his 'stuff'.

[Twodogs]

If you look up the Atlanta Braves stats on baseball reference, you'll notice that they have 9 guys with 400 or more plate appearances.  Then they have a guy on the bench with like 260 plate appearances and he's the backup catcher then you have pillar with 160 plate appearances who's like the 4th Ofer.  After that pretty much nothing.  I wonder how many times Rocco would sit Matt Olson down because a tough lefty is on the mound if he were managing the Braves???   

[bighat]

6 hours ago, insagt1 said:

Jax gave up no ER's for one month ...between May 22 and June 23. His ERA is 4.20. He has allowed 13 ER's in his last 15 outings. Mariano Rivera he is not. He HAD real good stuff at one time, but now he has terrible location and that kinda nullifies his 'stuff'.

The fact that he was good early in the year is because teams hadn't figured him out yet. The book on Jax is out and everyone has it. He has to adjust or say goodbye to MLB, simple as that. 

[TwinsDr2021]

11 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

Let's start an official club with t shirts and everything. 😁

You don't have your shirt? I have been making them since mid way though the 2019 season.

[TwinsDr2021]

9 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

That’s hindsight IMO……Griffin Jax looks like Mariano Riviera most outings. didn’t give up a run for 3 months at one point.

Jax has tremendous stuff & needs to pitch better!

I hate to be that guy and it is weird a Twins writer liked your comment but the only month in Jax's whole career he didn't give up a run was June this year and that was 10 innings. He did go 20 outings in a row from 5/22 to 7/15 in 19 innings with no earned runs.  He did go 11 games from 8/13 to 9/4 last year in 10 2/3 innings with no earned runs. Other than that he pretty consistently gives up a run every 3 to 4 games. And comparing Jax to the HOF Riviera is a disgrace to Riveria.

I like Jax, but he isn't a great relief pitcher but he is good.

[mike8791]

While I'm usually in agreement with Chief, I can't be on this post.  Instead, the real reasons for this loss and losing 3 of 4 are the following:

1. Using Jax in critical situations.  As his 10 losses indicate, I don't care how much "stuff" he has, this old stat brings his ineffectiveness into sharp relief.  Last year he allowed 40% of IRS - a terrible % - and this year, while not knowing his IRS%, the 10 losses are all I need to see to want to restrict his use to non-critical situations, especially in the playoffs.  Duran, Thielbar and Pagan have been far superior, Varland, too(in SSS), If Stewart is ready, and even Paddack, Jax should be at the end of the list.

2. What most seem to miss is in the last 4 games, this offensive juggernaut has a grand total of 21 hits!!  They were lucky to win even one game with this paltry total.  This offense continues to be all or nothing, with a few explosions sprinkled into a very few games.  It's pretty obvious, this offense will be the worst among the 6 playoff contenders, unless the hot and cold rooks blow hot again.  Obviously, it's too much to expect Correa/Buxton to carry the team, and the remainder of the lineup is average at best.  They badly needed a jolt from the FO by Aug. 1st, but we all know what happened then.

In summary, yes, they will make the playoffs(mainly due to Cleveland's collapse) and yes, with Gray and Lopez starting, their chances to break the dreaded streak look better than in years,  but this is still a flawed team that blew the chance to add much needed pen help in FA and the trade deadline and way over-estimated the contribution of their "super stars".  Hope I'm wrong, and the team surprises in October, but the odds are heavily against it.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Rocco honestly seems like a great guy. However, the Twins PR people didn’t even want to have a press conference to announce that he had been extended. Instead, it was a leak. Even Gardy had press conferences.