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Posted

The Twins front office is looking to trade hitters for pitchers this offseason. But do they really have a hitting surplus? If not, and if trades are made, their competitive window could close quicker than one might think.

Image courtesy of © Jesse Johnson-USA TODAY Sports

Good teams are hard to sustain in baseball. The Padres, for instance, got to the NLCS in 2022 and added Xander Bogaerts, got Fernando Tatis Jr. back from suspension, and missed the playoffs entirely in 2023. You just never know what a new season will bring.

The Twins were one of the best teams in the American League in the second half of 2023, and actually did a little something in the playoffs. They have an ace, a lineup star and a fearsome closer.

Well, so did the Padres. Having the three biggest boxes of a contending team's checklist filled doesn’t guarantee success, especially if some items further down the list are neglected. With little payroll flexibility (given the Twins' uncertain TV rights situation), the front office has indicated that they will try to beef up the roster via trading position players for pitching. They would sit at roughly $120 million in payroll if the season started today, leaving them with a maximum of $20 million in space for upgrades--and a minimum of zilch.

There is a reason that payroll levels correlate strongly to year-over-year winning: free agents only cost money, not prospect capital. The Dodgers adding Shohei Ohtani is pure added value for a team with an already-strong farm system. They'll give up a couple of non-premium draft picks and the right to spend some money in the international free-agent market, but those are negligible losses compared to the gain of Ohtani. Teams like the Guardians and Twins (at least this year) need to "win" trades in order to improve without spending money on free agents.

The Twins could, like last year with Gio Urshela, trade an expensive player for a low-minors prospect. That appears to be the goal with Christian Vazquez and Kyle Farmer. But if one or both of those players are traded, and a $15-million-per-year pitcher is signed on a one-year deal, that pitcher has to equal the 2-3 WAR lost by subtracting those veterans, which is no easy feat at that price point. For instance, former Cardinals starter Jack Flaherty has accumulated 1.4 bWAR total over the last four years, and just signed for $14 million with the Tigers.

A reclamation project like Frankie Montas or Hyun-Jin Ryu might be the only other worthwhile options within the Twins' budget, and even they (projected to get $12-18 million or so on a one-year deal) could stretch the payroll to its limit.

While I would be inclined to make a bid for one of those former stars, historically, one would expect the Twins to trade some of their hitters for pitching; it's what they do. But trading hitters for pitchers is nothing like the inverse. Trading starting pitching means you are down a starter. You either replace him, or live with the consequences. Trading from the position player pool means assuming greater risk. The Twins don’t have superstars up and down the lineup; many of their guys are platoon or mix-and-match options. In order for the lineup to click, the group has to work as a unit and truly buy in to whatever hitting philosophy the team chooses to use.

It’s like trading for James Harden in basketball. He might be a Hall of Famer given his ability to score, but if he doesn’t gel with Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, Joel Embiid, Paul George, et al, your team got worse, in addition to losing the young players and draft picks it took to acquire him.

Further, let’s be clear: In order to take another step forward next year, the lineup needs to get better, not just hold their level. And if you’re talking about non-tangible value, trading one or both of Max Kepler and Jorge Polanco certainly seems like a risky bet, given their tenure and respect in the clubhouse.

On the other hand, perhaps trading one or both of them allows for greater lineup flexibility while one of Brooks Lee and Austin Martin bursts onto the scene and takes the lineup to another level themselves. Maybe José Miranda or Trevor Larnach takes advantage of an opportunity that wouldn’t have been there, had the vets stayed in Minnesota.

Still, if they are going to trade position players, they have to get this right, even if it is impossible to know which players it is best to buy or sell high on from an analytical or scouting perspective. Tyler Mahle, for instance, was an excellent target, given his track record and untapped potential pitching in Great American Ballpark. But that trade was a disaster, and so was the Jorge López one.

Imagine the trade capital the Twins would have to work with this offseason, if Cade Povich could be a rotation option in 2024, or if Spencer Steer and Christian Encarnacion-Strand were in position to compete with Lee and Martin for playing time behind Royce Lewis, Edouard Julien and Alex Kirilloff. They would almost have to make a trade just to give some guys an opportunity.

A team is always two injuries away from having to lean heavily on depth. We saw with Cleveland last year what can happen when a team goes from the 99th percentile in the injury luck department to the 50th.

If Lee and Kepler are flipped to the Mariners for one of their young starters, for instance, think about how tenuous the situation could be if Polanco, Lewis or Julien miss time. Martin or Nick Gordon are playing everyday at second base, Miranda is at third, and you’re praying a Yunior Severino/Kirilloff platoon is working out at first base.

In this scenario, you’re also relying on an outfield of Matt Wallner, Larnach and Byron Buxton/Willi Castro. Do we know yet whether Wallner can hit quality pitching? Was 2023 a career year for Castro? Will Larnach improve against offspeed pitches? Will Buxton (fill in the blank)? I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but the outfield cupboard is pretty bare beyond those guys, unless Emmanuel Rodriguez really forces the issue and solves all of his contact issues in Double A.

If Michael Helman and DaShawn Keirsey Jr. are getting meaningful at-bats in a pennant chase, you may really regret trading Kepler.

We were spoiled as fans last year, because for every injury sustained, there was a high-ceiling prospect ready to take over (Lewis, Julien, Wallner). That likely will not be the case in 2024 if the team makes a trade for a playoff-caliber starter. Things can flip quickly in baseball.

Consider the 2022 White Sox, coming off an easy division win and with every position on the diamond (except second base) occupied by stars. They didn’t even know Dylan Cease would break out that year. Yet, over 2,000 plate appearances ended up going to Josh Harrison, Gavin Sheets, Leury García, Adam Engel, Seby Zavala, Elvis Andrus, Romy González, Danny Mendick and Lenyn Sosa. That was enough to torpedo their season.

Something needs to be done on the pitching side, too. Pitchers get injured, and once you pass Louie Varland down the starter pecking order, you get the mid-rotation upside of David Festa and then a lot of guys with underwhelming stuff.

There is a misconception that this team just opened its competitive window. They didn’t. It opened in 2019. They've just had a couple unlucky and/or poorly planned years during that period, and are, arguably, approaching the closing of that window as their arbitration guys get more expensive and the talent at the top of the minor-league system dries up. The Twins front office likely takes a different view, seeing Rodríguez, Festa, Marco Raya and Walker Jenkins as the next wave of impact prospects to supplement a contending core.

I'm not so sure. Bad trades like the Mahle and López ones can be shrugged off with the success of 2023, but those chickens will come home to roost at some point. Perhaps Chris Paddack, a healthy Carlos Correa and someone like Severino can paper over some of that, but if the front office thinks they can thread the needle of improving the 2024 club via trade without compromising 2025 and 2026, we all better hope they’re right.


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Posted

Count me in the group that is both grateful that this front office has the intestinal fortitude to make a deal like they did for Mahle, as well as someone who doesn’t regret the players that were made at that deadline.

The Twins have a deep system of prospects. Maybe not a ton of STARS (Walker Jenkins notwithstanding potentially) but they have a lot of future major leaguers who are currently at different levels in the minor leagues.

Im excited to see who this front office acquires to add to the pitching staff this offseason. I’m also still at the point that they would do due diligence in deciding what is a fair deal to make

Posted

Great article. It reinforces the truth that small to mid market front offices need to be that much better than their large market counterparts when making trades and drafting. They just don’t have that ability to buy their way out of mistakes. I’m not apologizing for any billionaire owners but until the day where a salary cap comes in to play there will always be this issue. Overall I think Falvey and crew have done a good job. There have been misses to be sure but we’re in a decent position with the current squad and the farm system. We all want a big trade or FA signing to talk about and I’m willing to bet that the front office will do the right thing this offseason to keep the window open.

Posted
23 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

Count me in the group that is both grateful that this front office has the intestinal fortitude to make a deal like they did for Mahle, as well as someone who doesn’t regret the players that were made at that deadline.

The Twins have a deep system of prospects. Maybe not a ton of STARS (Walker Jenkins notwithstanding potentially) but they have a lot of future major leaguers who are currently at different levels in the minor leagues.

Im excited to see who this front office acquires to add to the pitching staff this offseason. I’m also still at the point that they would do due diligence in deciding what is a fair deal to make

I agree - for all the concern about players traded away for actual major leaguers that didn't work out, there is some basic math that suggests you can't keep them all: 26 and 40. 

Posted
12 minutes ago, Karbo said:

Don.t mortgage the future for anything less then a 60% chance of success. And for sure I don't trade players that look like they are the future for 1 year rentals,

I agree. The devil is in the details though. Is Wallner a future All-Star or will he just be a less extreme version of Joey Gallo? Is Julien a mainstay or is he a good-not great hitter with no position? Will Kirilloff ever beat the injury bug or is he destined to be a part-time player without enough power to hold a regular job? The FO has to be right on their evaluations of talent in the system before they trade for talent outside of the system. 

Posted

For those that are excited about the front office  , I hope you get your hope and ain't disappointed  ...

I have better confidence in the FO  making good trades during the off season  , they have made disastrous trades at the deadline  ...

Yes they better get it right , starting pitching  and a hitting lineup  is what we need , standing pat is not what we need , we need a contending team in the playoffs ...

Posted

More free agents out there than a typical year; although the Royals, Tigers and Cardinals are sucking up those #3-#5 starters.  How will this affect the Twins getting more pitching?

love the Julien and have noticed that Lee takes some at-bats to get adjusted to the upgraded level of pitching (AA, then AAA then Bigs?).  Walner seems to be getting better as he goes forward.  I do hold out some hope for Larnach (RBI man!) and Miranda; I like those dudes.

Remember first half last year, nobody hit (Julien?).  It took Royce coming out to spur some hitting; he spurred the hitting even in the playoffs.  None of the veterans spurred the hitting.  I believe that is why I like getting the young guys up in the bigs (Lee and company).  Let's see what these young guys have before Rodriguez, Jenkins, Keaschall et al, are ready.

Posted

The real challenge in giving up a potentially very good hitter for pitching is that the FO can be right in their assessment but are an injury away from being a lopsided losing trade. Although these injuries happen with position players they are more likely to occur with pitchers. The question then is how to structure such a trade so that even in the worst case scenario the long term consequences for the team are minimal. 
 

I think Tampa does a lot of things correct in roster management. They mostly seem to be able to trade pitchers on expiring contracts and get exceptionally good value in return. 
 

 

Posted
19 minutes ago, miracleb said:

The Cinci GM calls the Twin's front office daily....... trying to make trades.   Please, please, please.....don't answer those calls!

Gray for Petty was a good trade for the Twins.  How much do you think Reds fans wish they had Sonny this year? They missed the playoffs because of a trade they made 2 years ago.

The Mahle trade was bad because he couldn't stay healthy.  I won't defend it, but at the time a very similar package to Steer/CES would have been Julien/Wallner, and I'd be surprised if they weren't at least discussed in the trade conversations.  I'm glad we have Julien over Steer and Wallner over CES right now.  Even getting nearly nothing from Mahle, it's hard to say that the major league team would have been any better so far had they not made the trade.

The Reds have now stockpiled more young talent than they can realistically keep and are forced to choose which pieces to move.  It's a good position to be in, but the odds that they make a move that fans end up regretting is pretty high, especially when everyone knows they are motivated sellers.  I would have no problem if the front office made another trade with them, though I don't really think they match up very well need-wise right now.

Posted

Depth is a good thing to have we saw how it helped propel the Twins to a division win while other division teams stumbled at the end of the season.  Injuries are going to happen and it is a good idea to have as many solid options as possible if a starter is out for an extended amount of time.

This team on offense has quite a number of question marks going into the season.  Can Lewis stay healthy for an entire year? Can Kirilloff stay healthy an entire year and be productive at the plate? Is Wallner for real or just able to get by against teams that weren't playing well down the stretch and he has trouble against lefties and was protected at times. Can Jullien defend well at 2nd or is he really a 1st baseman DH? Will Correa be better with the bat or he is already in decline?  Can Buxton return even close to form at the plate? Can Polanco stay healthy?  Will Larnach ever hit well enough against breaking balls to be a MLB option in left?  Is the new Max for real or like Wallner did he feast on lessor competition?  Will Miranda be back or is he a AAAA player?

There is risk and uncertainty all around this roster IMO.  There is some depth at AAA but they all have question marks.  Lee looks a bit Polanco like but isn't ready just yet, he needs more experience IMO. Severino's numbers aren't that far off from Wallner at AA and AAA but he walks even less than Wallner.  Camargo has power but a fair bit of swing of miss.  Still he can't be much worse than Vasquez last year. Martin has minimal power but has been an onbase machine in the past.  Not sure it all translates to the MLB level though and he needs more time to be ready as well.  He hasn't played a full season in a while either.  Prato has nice solid numbers but his slow start last year has many wondering if those numbers are real or outliers. 

So yeah I agree with the OP that there is a lot risk in the offense as constructed. Take away the veteran production of Polanco and Kepler and it does get riskier.  I don't see a ton of depth in the outfield for this team unless you believe in Larnach, Martin and Keirsey.  The team played without Polanco for the better part of the year but played better when he came back.  I guess if they just absolutely had to trade one guy it would be Polanco for me, as there is more infield depth.

If your going big and trading Jullien or Lee or both I think that is going to be hard to replace.  With Jullien's eye at the plate and power to all fields The odds are good he remains successful. Will he grow into an All Star type player?  hard to say so early but he came close to matching Arraez's production in his first year and he takes good at bat's.  He doesn't have the contact skills of Arraez as he K'd at a 30% rate last year but his power makes him a dangerous bat for any pitcher.

We don't know what he have in Lee yet but like Polanco he can switch hit and has a nice K to walk ratio. He is super versatile in the field.  Those types of players are hard to come by.  

In the end there is risk if they make a trade and there is still risk if they don't make a trade.  Just have to hope the FO finds a way to make this team better rather than worse.

Posted

For a team that heavily relies on analytics, to ignore it when it come to prospects makes no sense. What will happen with Wallner, Larnach, Castro, Julien, Miranda, Martin, Helman, Keirsey, Festa, Varland, Lee and others? This FO should be using history as their guide to decide which guys have really good chance at being good, a good chance, and not so likely to be good.

You/they can hope and believe every prospect that the Twins have is the exception to the rule like a Merrifield, but hope is not a plan.

IMO, Wallner should be a decent starting outfielder for a few years, Julien's bat also should play in the majors, Festa has a good chance at being a decent starting pitcher, Varland looks like a relief pitcher, and Lee has looks like a future starter. The rest seem like back ups, fill ins, or utility type players and not guys you hand jobs to, they have to force the teams hand. (which turns into a great problem to have)

 

Posted
1 hour ago, Craig Arko said:

And people will be satisfied if they do nothing? Any significant trade requires that you get it right. And that involves risk-taking. I vote for evaluating and then taking the chance. Who knows, you might lose.

But you also might win.

 

I am prepared to die! 

Posted

When talking trades, prices go up at the deadline along with risk. What I hope the Twins learned from the '22 deadline was the importance of self scouting. 

Posted

Trading for pitchers at the deadline is risky business, their arms need to be carefully examined 1st. Mahle, Dwyer & Paddack's arms were shot when we got them. Yeah I know Paddack wasn't traded at the deadline but his arm was well known to be shot but it seems like they didn't care. Off-season you're not paying for the abuse some teams do to showcase their arms at the deadline. Yeah, it was difficult to give up Steer & CES when they could be used for better trades but at least they are getting an opportunity to play.

The Lopez/ Arraez trade is the model we are looking for. Lopez more than adequately filled our need at SP. And Arraez who was great with his bat but was our lesser option at 2B glovewise. filled MIA's need for offense.

I share with you the concern for depth. For depth, we need to look at how we sit at the key positions (CF, SS & catcher) defensively, Last season we were the deepest we had ever been at CF. & fortunately, we were because Buxton basically didn't play a single game at CF. But this season, Buxton is in a much better place than last season & Martin is in a good place to come up & impact this team sooner rather than later, So right now we have Buxton, Castro, Martin & Gordon; all adequate or better at CF. At SS we have  Correa, Farmer & Lewis (Lee could be brought up later in the season but I don't see him as a factor & I didn't include Castro because he'll be busy in the OF) are adequate or better. Buxton is very good at CF, Correa is very good at SS and at catcher, we have Vazquez who is very good, Jeffers who's adequate & Carmargo is unproven. IMO Carmargo doesn't have catcher in his blood & doesn't have the spunk, talent & motivation that Martin has to really take off. If we trade especially Vazquez that'll highly compromise our catching position. Jeffers thrived under Vazquez's safety net, the last time Jeffers was our sole primary catcher he bombed. 

In '21, PIT offered us Musgrove straight up for Larnach, FO didn't accept or gave a counter-offer. Musgrove was moved to SD for substanially less. FO decided to go FA & picked up Happ & Shoemaker & got the fanbase all on board. Needless to say Musgrove had a wonderful year pitching no-hitters & how did Happ, Shoemaker & Colume do? We had a pretty good team how did we fare? What would have happened if we went the trade route & picked up Musgrove instead like I had advocated, What I've observed is we take more risk in FA than in the off-season trade  route.

About the offense, we have a lot of offense, we had the most HRs in the AL. The problem with our offense is striking out too much (we set the record for the most) in clutch situations & not getting hits. The most important improvement on offense is ditching their "hitting HRs every pitch" philosophy. Where we can win more close games that we normally lose via SO's.

 

Posted

What are the odds of this FO duplicating the Mahle trade?  Too high to ignore....

Posted

I agree Dman.  LOTS of questions but none of us has a Crystal Ball.  The Twins "window" probably DID open in 2019 and back to back division titles in 2019 & 2020 proves that.  2021 & 2022 are prime examples of injuries and lack of depth slamming the window shut in a given season.  The White Sox example was excellent.  If ever a team was decimated by injury, they would be the poster child.

The fact that a team in a market/budget size that the the Twins are in just doesn't have anywhere near the margin of error that a Dodgers, Yankees or Mets has is, and always will be a "very major league baseball" kind of thing.  And even the Mets, with all the money they spent couldn't recover last year.  Now, you can fairly point out that the Mets got what they deserved by signing to pitchers on the homestretch to 50-years old to ridiculous contracts.  That's indisputable.  The Twins have to be much more sensible than that.

That's why I think a Polanco for Bieber swap makes a lot of sense for both the Guardians and the Twins.  Bieber ($12 million) and Polanco ($10.5 million) are close enough in salary and each fits a team need to a "T."  I'm much more willing to hang onto Kepler than I was at season's end given that Rodriguez and Jenkins are not quite ready.  Maybe Rodriguez takes a BIG step forward, and crushes it at St. Paul.  Maybe the same is true for Brooks Lee.  But the guys the Twins had playing outfield at the end of 2022 (Cave, Contreras etc...) should never be confused with the talent the Twins have in Lee, Rodriguez, Jenkins or even Wallner.  

But I think the Twins MUST do something to replace Gray & Maeda and picking up an Adam Dunn or Nick Senzel to cushion the blow of trading a Larnach or Kepler needs to be done.  Standing pat is not going to defend the divisional title.  It's not an easy job being a part of an MLB front office, and every year brings new challenges and uncertainties.  

Posted
2 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

I agree Dman.  LOTS of questions but none of us has a Crystal Ball.  The Twins "window" probably DID open in 2019 and back to back division titles in 2019 & 2020 proves that.  2021 & 2022 are prime examples of injuries and lack of depth slamming the window shut in a given season.  The White Sox example was excellent.  If ever a team was decimated by injury, they would be the poster child.

The fact that a team in a market/budget size that the the Twins are in just doesn't have anywhere near the margin of error that a Dodgers, Yankees or Mets has is, and always will be a "very major league baseball" kind of thing.  And even the Mets, with all the money they spent couldn't recover last year.  Now, you can fairly point out that the Mets got what they deserved by signing to pitchers on the homestretch to 50-years old to ridiculous contracts.  That's indisputable.  The Twins have to be much more sensible than that.

That's why I think a Polanco for Bieber swap makes a lot of sense for both the Guardians and the Twins.  Bieber ($12 million) and Polanco ($10.5 million) are close enough in salary and each fits a team need to a "T."  I'm much more willing to hang onto Kepler than I was at season's end given that Rodriguez and Jenkins are not quite ready.  Maybe Rodriguez takes a BIG step forward, and crushes it at St. Paul.  Maybe the same is true for Brooks Lee.  But the guys the Twins had playing outfield at the end of 2022 (Cave, Contreras etc...) should never be confused with the talent the Twins have in Lee, Rodriguez, Jenkins or even Wallner.  

But I think the Twins MUST do something to replace Gray & Maeda and picking up an Adam Dunn or Nick Senzel to cushion the blow of trading a Larnach or Kepler needs to be done.  Standing pat is not going to defend the divisional title.  It's not an easy job being a part of an MLB front office, and every year brings new challenges and uncertainties.  

I actually have a crystal ball, but the outlook is cloudy.

Posted

I think this offseason has the potential to be a turning point type of moment. I liked the Mahle trade at the time. I still think it was a solid process and made sense, but it's turned out terribly. If they make a substantial move to bring in another arm to pair with Lopez at the top of the rotation it's going to be a move that doesn't come cheaply. They're going to have to pick the right guys they're willing to let go, and get the right guy back in return. If it ends up like the Mahle trade it could have a significant impact on where this team is over the next handful of years.

I think the minor league system gets overrated on these threads a lot. Jenkins looks like a star, but he's miles away. We'll know much more about him after 2024. The rest of the guys in the system, and young recent grads, have serious flaws and there aren't a lot of guys who's likely outcome is an all star level major leaguer. ERod has a ton of tools, but his K rate is a real problem. Lee looks more like an MLB regular than a star. Wallner has a hole in his swing that covers basically the entire inner 3rd of the plate, if he can't erase a large chunk of that hole he's got no shot at maintaining his early success. Can Lewis and Kirilloff stay healthy while producing for a full year? Can Austin Martin be Whit Merrifield or is he Nick Madrigal? Can Julien learn to hit lefties and keep the Ks in check? Can Jeffers maintain his new production over a full season with a larger workload? Can Severino hit at the major league level with his K rates? Can Castro maintain or build upon a career year that was him being a league average hitter? Who's the real Nick Gordon? Who's the real Miranda? Can Larnach ever learn to hit off-speed stuff? Are Schobel and Keaschall anything more than utility infielders? 

I know that's a lot of doubt, and I'm not trying to suggest these guys are all doomed and there's no stars in there. I've been driving the Royce Lewis fan bus for years. He's a star. But I think there's some real improvements that need to be made with all of them. Or just proving they can stay healthy. The window could be slammed open or closed this offseason depending on who's moved and if they hold onto guys who they're able to help overcome their obstacles. I know a lot of fans are excited to see the young guys, and have super high hopes for them after the Lewis, Julien, and Wallner trio took the team by storm last year. But that was an historic rookie class performance for the Twins, and even those 3 have concerns. The Twins have the chance to build a contender for the rest of the 2020s if they get this offseason right. But if they get it wrong we could be looking at a much different result. I have cautious optimism that they'll come out of this with the arrow pointing up and be setup for a really nice future. But there's work to be done, and the right players need to be kept and developed further.

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