Souhan: Snooty Twins Fans Should Chill a Bit

[Seth Stohs]

I know there are some that don't enjoy reading some of Souhan's stuff. But I think this was a fantastic article, and I think something we all needed to read. 

Quote

The 1987 Twins won 85 games, holding off the Royals by two games to finish at the top of a terrible division. Then the '87 Twins, with two reliable starting pitchers, won the World Series.

These realities do not seem to be registering with a horde of dissatisfied Twins fans, who loudly lament their team's inability to run away with the division title.

He added, "When and how did Minnesotans become the cork-sniffers of the sports world?"

Souhan isn't exactly one to sugar-coat things for the Twins. So this is a surprising article. And I think filled with truth. 

https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-twins-fans-need-dose-of-realism-pablo-lopez-sonny-gray-jim-souhan/600296873/

 

[Dave Borton]

2 minutes ago, Seth Stohs said:

Souhan isn't exactly one to sugar-coat things for the Twins. So this is a surprising article. And I think filled with truth.

I enjoy Souhan but I also think he takes the opposite of Main Street opinion just to rattle the cages. Many who don't like him read him more religiously than I do. Those count as readership clicks.

While that may have occurred in '87, can't see the Twins getting by the Rays/Astros let alone Rangers/Orioles and then Dodgers/Atlanta. Ober and Ryan are running on fumes and as they look over their shoulders, no one is there.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

36 minutes ago, Seth Stohs said:

He added, "When and how did Minnesotans become the cork-sniffers of the sports world?"

Souhan isn't exactly one to sugar-coat things for the Twins. So this is a surprising article. And I think filled with truth.

Absolutely needed, and as you said, from a surprising source.  If he's pointing it out, and he most certainly is, it must be pretty prevalent.  TD isn't too bad, but there are lots of postings elsewhere that definitely allow the perfect to be the sworn enemy of the pretty good.  Every single team has its warts, but I think that pointing them all out every single day is counterproductive.  I posted the other day that there are some who would complain about the two losses if the Twins won the WS in six games and someone actually had to ask if I was being snarky (I was, or thought I was. . . yikes!). Unfortunately, there are too many people that think that whining (or is it wining?) about it is the sport, and not actually baseball.

[stringer bell]

10 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

Absolutely needed, and as you said, from a surprising source.  If he's pointing it out, and he most certainly is, it must be pretty prevalent.  TD isn't too bad, but there are lots of postings elsewhere that definitely allow the perfect to be the sworn enemy of the pretty good.  Every single team has its warts, but I think that pointing them all out every single day is counterproductive.  I posted the other day that there are some who would complain about the two losses if the Twins won the WS in six games and someone actually had to ask if I was being snarky (I was, or thought I was. . . yikes!). Unfortunately, there are too many people that think that whining (or is it wining?) about it is the sport, and not actually baseball.

Pretty much agree with this take (and Souhan's). To be specific, offering criticism is fine with me and should be accepted by all for what it is. However, waiting for something to go wrong so the player/manager/front office can be raked over the coals is beyond the pale if you ask me. 

[weitz41]

I agree almost completely. Exhale. It is supposed to be entertainment.

[Squirrel]

2 hours ago, stringer bell said:

However, waiting for something to go wrong so the player/manager/front office can be raked over the coals is beyond the pale if you ask me.

Welcome to TD game threads where a number of posters wait until that moment to join the thread.

[LA Vikes Fan]

Wow, tonight's game was terrible! We only scored in one inning, Correa hit into another double play with the bases loaded, Jeffers needs to lose the piano on his back if he ever expects to hit another double, Duran gave up a run in the 9th, Gallo played (why?). Let's face it, this team is going nowhere! the From Office should have been fired months ago and replaced by people who know merde from shinola! Wait.... wrong thread?

[notoriousgod71]

Souhan is the definition of snooty.

 

The overall tenor of twins territory would be far different if they even had moderate postseason success to fall back on rather than historic ineptitude.

[glunn]

Using the word "snooty" bothers me -- seems like trolling and insulting people who have a different perspective. If Souhan posted this on TD I would be tempted to send him a cautionary PM.

[Mike Sixel]

Outliers aren't generally repeatable..... seriously. I'm not fan of him at all. 

[MGX]

This team is very different from the '87 Twins. In '87 the they clinched with 5 games left in the season & must have celebrated a bit too much as they went 0-5 to finish the season. Also, making it seem like the '87 AL West was anywhere near as bad as the '23 Central is completely inaccurate. All 7 teams in our division in '87 had 75+ wins that year & the Royals were above .500 & A's finished .500. It's unlikely that any other team in the '23 Central will finish at '500 or better & all of them could finish with less than 75 wins.   

That team was entertaining on offense with Hrbek, Gaetti, Puckett & Brunansky & had a true ace in Viola & solid #2 in Blyleven leading a thin pitching staff. They were also an excellent team at home (.691) winning percentage. We had home field advantage throughout the playoffs that year & won every home game that post-season.

All of that is to say this team feels nothing like the '87 Twins did. It would be great if they could put together a run in the playoffs this year, but they don't inspire that feeling when watching them during the season.

[nokomismod]

Souhan seems to be turning into a more positive person. I recall him being pretty negative maybe 5 years ago and thinking he was difficult to read.

[Jocko87]

It’s the Information Age effect. 

We are chattering messes hourly over a game that’s meant to be consumed in weekly or monthly increments.  Small sample size is the worst way to consume baseball.  And that’s just at Twins Daily, sheesh with Twitter.  

I’m fully comfortable skipping several of the daily random articles that are posted here knowing full well I won’t miss anything of substance. It will be discussed inside and out in any number of ways and I will engage occasionally but am pretty sure I’m not missing anything.  Personally I think we need about half the articles with twice the discussion.  By the time the premise of the article can be tested the site gives us nasty grams for bringing back an old discussion.  Frankly, many of the articles should be forum or blog posts. 

I may even have a homer reputation as I go to bat pretty hard for the organization and front office but I’ve also lived in several other baseball areas and try to keep perspective.  Perspective both on where the Twins are and have been and what other organizations are like in comparison.  We got it pretty good. I’ve asked many times for someone to name a more talented 40 man than we have now and the best we have come up with is 1969.  We got it pretty good. 

I make the case that the whole point of this stupid experiment is to get to the post season and get hot.  They are positioned as well as any team in the game, now they need the get hot part. 

 

[stringer bell]

While I agree that the '87 Twins and '23 Twins is not a good comparison and that lack of recent postseason success has soured many of us, I still think that good points were made. 

At the start of the season, no one was picking the Twins to win 100 games and not many were predicting much more than 85. They have overachieved in run suppression (pitching and defense) while underachieving offensively. Some players have taken a step forward, while several have not. That is the way baseball usually goes.

[LastOnePicked]

Oh yes, there's no group of fans as entitled as Twins fans, right?

I mean, right?

Riiiiiight?

I swear, I wish just half as much energy spent critiquing the lack of "positivity" of the fanbase was spent on critiquing this organization's ongoing and historic playoff ineptitude. This organization has a strong number of positives and also a whole lotta faults. None of those faults have anything whatsoever to do with the fans here. None.

[Craig Arko]

I think it’s the snooty human condition that underlies all of this.

[Dave Borton]

12 hours ago, weitz41 said:

Exhale. It is supposed to be entertainment.

Entertainment it is.

Like another poster, having lived in over 10 states and consumed numerous ball teams, I am a ball fan first and the Twins secondarily.  I enjoy a competitive, well played game more than a sloppy, blowout victory.

8 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

Small sample size is the worst way to consume baseball.  And that’s just at Twins Daily, sheesh with Twitter.  

I enjoy discussions which analyze clubs and their games constructively. I find that at TD. Of course some fans become overly zealous in criticism. That is to be expected of fans. I have seen that fanaticism wherever I have lived. I can cull insights from chatter but my responses and involvement might well be seen as blather by others. It is inherent in those devoted to a team. 

[Boom Boom]

The game has changed so much since 87 that comparing the 23 Twins with that team is meaningless. There were 2 fewer playoff rounds back then. 

And going all the way back to 87 ignores the last 20 (!) years of Twins playoff futility, which is equally relevant to this year's squad.  

IMO Souhan comes off as an old fart here.  Twins fans under the age of 40 aren't going to relate to this column, but they probably don't read newspapers anyway.

 

 

 

 

[TwinsDr2021]

The article felt like a politician telling people not to believe their lying eyes, things are better than you think, you are just not smart enough to understand.

With that said this site has been saying all the things he mentioned, the guys brought in as depth has worked out pretty well, the pitching has been good, young guys playing well, others have disappointment and yet the Twins are in first because this is the worst division I have seen in my 40 plus years of watching baseball.

[AceWrigley]

10 hours ago, glunn said:

Using the word "snooty" bothers me -- seems like trolling and insulting people who have a different perspective. If Souhan posted this on TD I would be tempted to send him a cautionary PM.

As a recipient of a few cautionary PM's, I approve this message.

[nicksaviking]

I dislike the fire breathing theatrics of some fans who are always unhappy, but overall, this did seem like Souhan was just chumming the waters. Again.

His entire article about fans being "snooty" for not being happy with a division champ was completely undercut by his last paragraph:

"But go ahead, Minnesotans, turn up your noses at a potential division winner. When your state is awash in championships, you have every right to be snooty."

Yeah, Jim, are you blind to the rub? We are starving for a championship, most of us don't care about an empty division winner. Most fans are simply pointing out and asking for what they think would put this team over the top.

[Dman]

Baseball is an unpredictable game.  You can have the "best" team on paper and still lose to the plucky last place team in the league.  Players get injured and players don't perform as expected on every team which changes the dynamic of a teams season. Still as fans you want your team to win every game even though that isn't going to happen.

If you are a fan you have expectations of your star players and that is supposedly why teams pay lot's of money to keep star players.  Watching Buxton actually hurt the team this year doesn't feel good.  Watching Correa with maybe the worst offensive season of his career feels. well, offensive.  Bringing in Gallo and blocking younger players given the results isn't fan friendly either.  We are fans we want to cheer on our hero's but when they go missing I think we have a right to feel disappointed.

I think most fans are happy the Twins are in 1st place but this is Minnesota the land of waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Just last year the Guardians reeled the Twins in and the Twins fell out of the race.  That feeling is very fresh in the minds of many fans. When this team blows games with poor pitching or offense or both it hurts losing winnable games and while it happens to all teams it hurts worse when you are clinging to a .500 record and fearing another let down at the end of the season like just last year.

Then there is just the sheer embarrassment factor of leading your division with a .500 record when at times the East has 4 teams with better records.  It is hard to feel good about your team when staring that in the face.

Maybe it is too much to ask for your star players to be stars or for your team to perform with enough consistency to be 10 games over .500 and look like a team in the hunt for a championship.  Maybe the scars of being swept in the post season should just be swept under the rug.  Maybe hoping that a flawed team gets hot at the right time should be our only hope every year but I think most fans would like more than that.

Yeah the Twins are in 1st place and that is better than what the other central teams have managed this year. Yes the Twins are at least over the .500 mark so far.  Yes I am happy they are leading instead of trailing, but those seem like pretty low bars in the grand scheme of baseball's ultimate prize.  I don't think that makes fans snooty I think it makes them realists.

[MMMordabito]

I hope the Twins finish on a winning note. Is that wine snobby enough for you, Jim?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

10 hours ago, nokomismod said:

Souhan seems to be turning into a more positive person. I recall him being pretty negative maybe 5 years ago and thinking he was difficult to read.

He’s a contrarian. Just you wait, they win the World Series, fans on top of the world, and Souhan will be his usually grouchy self.

[TwinsDr2021]

16 minutes ago, Dman said:

Baseball is an unpredictable game.  You can have the "best" team on paper and still lose to the plucky last place team in the league.  Players get injured and players don't perform as expected on every team which changes the dynamic of a teams season. Still as fans you want your team to win every game even though that isn't going to happen.

If you are a fan you have expectations of your star players and that is supposedly why teams pay lot's of money to keep star players.  Watching Buxton actually hurt the team this year doesn't feel good.  Watching Correa with maybe the worst offensive season of his career feels. well, offensive.  Bringing in Gallo and blocking younger players given the results isn't fan friendly either.  We are fans we want to cheer on our hero's but when they go missing I think we have a right to feel disappointed.

I think most fans are happy the Twins are in 1st place but this is Minnesota the land of waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Just last year the Guardians reeled the Twins in and the Twins fell out of the race.  That feeling is very fresh in the minds of many fans. When this team blows games with poor pitching or offense or both it hurts losing winnable games and while it happens to all teams it hurts worse when you are clinging to a .500 record and fearing another let down at the end of the season like just last year.

Then there is just the sheer embarrassment factor of leading your division with a .500 record when at times the East has 4 teams with better records.  It is hard to feel good about your team when staring that in the face.

Maybe it is too much to ask for your star players to be stars or for your team to perform with enough consistency to be 10 games over .500 and look like a team in the hunt for a championship.  Maybe the scars of being swept in the post season should just be swept under the rug.  Maybe hoping that a flawed team gets hot at the right time should be our only hope every year but I think most fans would like more than that.

Yeah the Twins are in 1st place and that is better than what the other central teams have managed this year. Yes the Twins are at least over the .500 mark so far.  Yes I am happy they are leading instead of trailing, but those seem like pretty low bars in the grand scheme of baseball's ultimate prize.  I don't think that makes fans snooty I think it makes them realists.

Anybody else read this and think Morgan Freeman should be reading this to me? (this was awesome and well written, wish I had the ability to express myself in words like this)

[Mortimerkenny21]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

Yes I am happy they are leading instead of trailing, but those seem like pretty low bars in the grand scheme of baseball's ultimate prize.  I don't think that makes fans snooty I think it makes them realists.

Where is Twinsrealist when you need them to approve this message?

[SpicyGarvSauce]

I love how people like to tell other people how to be a fan of their favorite team.

Especially people whose opinions don't matter one bleeping bit.

[Mike Sixel]

12 minutes ago, SpicyGarvSauce said:

I love how people like to tell other people how to be a fan of their favorite team.

Especially people whose opinions don't matter one bleeping bit.

Very well said

[KirbyDome89]

Jim Souhan stirring a pot of hollow talking points.......no way. 

"The largest division lead (4.5 games over Cleveland who sits 4 games under .500) in the AL...."

"The '87 Twins (who started their postseason run in the ALCS)...."

"Taylor has saved the Twins in CF....."

"Jordan Luplow...."

"Remarkably talented Brock Stewart..."

"Ignore the previous 3 years of Kepler, look at these last 6 weeks..."

"Emilio Pagan is being relied upon in the top half of the pen after inactivity at the deadline...."

"Look at some of these position player prospects who are years away from seeing any MLB action..."

"I can't believe you ***holes aren't more enamored with a .500ish team that, midway through August, has played one of the easiest schedules in baseball yet failed to provide itself any sort of runway in one of the worst divisions of all time...."

This is just tone def garbage that's trying to zig while everyone else is zagging. Calling it "full of truth," is embarrassing....

[Rod Carews Birthday]

17 hours ago, MGX said:

This team is very different from the '87 Twins. In '87 the they clinched with 5 games left in the season & must have celebrated a bit too much as they went 0-5 to finish the season. Also, making it seem like the '87 AL West was anywhere near as bad as the '23 Central is completely inaccurate. All 7 teams in our division in '87 had 75+ wins that year & the Royals were above .500 & A's finished .500. It's unlikely that any other team in the '23 Central will finish at '500 or better & all of them could finish with less than 75 wins.   

That team was entertaining on offense with Hrbek, Gaetti, Puckett & Brunansky & had a true ace in Viola & solid #2 in Blyleven leading a thin pitching staff. They were also an excellent team at home (.691) winning percentage. We had home field advantage throughout the playoffs that year & won every home game that post-season.

All of that is to say this team feels nothing like the '87 Twins did. It would be great if they could put together a run in the playoffs this year, but they don't inspire that feeling when watching them during the season.

While this thread isn't about a comparison between the '87 and '23 teams, I think that we are remembering the '87 team more fondly than they probably deserve.  Throughout the season everybody kept waiting for them to fall out of 1st place, since that's what Twins teams of the past had done, and then everyone assumed they would lose quickly in the playoffs and in the world series.  Taking nothing away from that team, as it is a team that made me many lasting great memories, it was not some juggernaut.  That high ranking is mostly because of the association with WS champs that they will always have, and also because of the number of years before that the team had been absolutely terrible.  It was wonderful.  Absolutely.  But the '27 Yankees they were not.  Yes, the teams in the West that year were somewhat better, but the Twins would have finished fifth in the East with their record and not even had a sniff at the playoffs.

If I learned anything from the 1987 Twins, it is that anything can happen in the playoffs -- particularly if you can match up well on pitching.  At the moment our pitching is showing a little bit of regression, but the bats do seem to be coming around a bit, so I'm going to be optimistic about their chances to win the division and maybe even a round of playoffs.  What good does it do not to?