Souhan: Snooty Twins Fans Should Chill a Bit

[Rod Carews Birthday]

3 hours ago, SpicyGarvSauce said:

I love how people like to tell other people how to be a fan of their favorite team.

Especially people whose opinions don't matter one bleeping bit.

This is an argument that cuts both ways 50/50 pretty much all the time.  If someone is spouting positive things, they are in effect telling you to be more positive about the team.  If someone is spouting negative things, they are in effect telling you to be more negative about the team.  Someone will always be on the wrong side of it, although perhaps degree of positive or negative plays into it in extreme cases.  Rationality is also important.  Calling Gallo and Vasquez amazing hitters is stupid.  Calling for everyone's head is equally so. 

I will agree that ultimately no one's opinions about someone's favorite team matter but their own, and kept to themselves are no less valid.  So ultimately, we all have to agree to disagree.  Now let's go out and win some ballgames!

[Woof Bronzer]

Ah, fan policing, my favorite topic.  I'd say the definition of "snooty" would be someone lecturing fans on how they are supposed to feel.  Actually, no, I'd use a stronger word than snooty...

Has Jim Souhan watched the Twins for the past 32 years?  How has winning the Central worked out for the past 3 decades?

Has Souhan looked at the AL standings?  Would he be writing the same article if the Twins were in the West or East?  

Has Souhan watched the 2023 Twins play baseball?  

Fans can feel however they want, full stop.  Imagine watching a game like, oh I don't know, today's game, and saying:  "Why can't Twins fans be more grateful?"

 

[Mike Sixel]

18 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

This is an argument that cuts both ways 50/50 pretty much all the time.  If someone is spouting positive things, they are in effect telling you to be more positive about the team.  If someone is spouting negative things, they are in effect telling you to be more negative about the team.  Someone will always be on the wrong side of it, although perhaps degree of positive or negative plays into it in extreme cases.  Rationality is also important.  Calling Gallo and Vasquez amazing hitters is stupid.  Calling for everyone's head is equally so. 

I will agree that ultimately no one's opinions about someone's favorite team matter but their own, and kept to themselves are no less valid.  So ultimately, we all have to agree to disagree.  Now let's go out and win some ballgames!

Ya, no. People being positive about a thing aren't telling you you are a bad fan if you aren't positive. that's what Souhan is doing. 

[Woof Bronzer]

40 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

This is an argument that cuts both ways 50/50 pretty much all the time.  If someone is spouting positive things, they are in effect telling you to be more positive about the team.  If someone is spouting negative things, they are in effect telling you to be more negative about the team. 

There's a huge difference between disagreeing with another fan's opinion - that's part of the fun of sports! - and telling a fan they are supposed to feel a certain way.   

[Craig Arko]

I kinda feel like this.

[Major League Ready]

Souhan has his head in the sand,  Being better than 4 other teams is not a good measure of the quality of a given team.  This is a mediocre team.  Fans are not being snooty.  They are being realists.  The team being in 1st place does not negate the validity of various criticisms fans have of this team.   

[nicksaviking]

Way too much of this contrarianism in mainstream media these days. Some of these guys always dabbled a bit on this side of things, but now they all constantly act like angsty, non-conforming, know-it-all teenagers because that's what gets hits on Tik-Tok and Instagram.

I dislike it, but I suppose I get it. Nobody at major market newspapers feels safe about their jobs anymore, and this is probably the surest way to get views.

Also, apologies to our teenage viewers for that analogy.

[Parfigliano]

18 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

I kinda feel like this.

Math!!!!

[IndianaTwin]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:03 AM, TwinsDr2021 said:

Anybody else read this and think Morgan Freeman should be reading this to me? (this was awesome and well written, wish I had the ability to express myself in words like this)

The one constant through all the years Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It’s been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again. 

Oops. Wrong legendary voice.

[TwinsDr2021]

23 hours ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

this is an argument that cuts both ways 50/50 pretty much all the time.  If someone is spouting positive things, they are in effect telling you to be more positive about the team.  If someone is spouting negative things, they are in effect telling you to be more negative about the team.

um, nope, if I am positive about player X or coach Y, I am not telling you how to feel, I am telling you how I feel. If I say fire Rocco I am not telling you that is how you should feel.

That is most of what is wrong with society these days, for some reason people feel that others should feel they way they do or call them whatever the negative word of the day is.

[Original_JB]

Well, I will say this; Souhan's job is to generate page clicks and stir people up, and like a lot of the people who don't 'get' that the Common Man's schtick is just that, a faux clueless persona, apparently Souhan's take reeled a few of you in as well. The issue I have with Souhan, is you never get HIS actual position on things, you get the contrarian position of the day. Now for the casual reader, that might not matter much or even seem noticeable, but for someone who reads him regularly, it drives me nuts because he'll write an article such as this one, then 3 or 4 days later we'll get another piece where he takes the completely opposite side of the issue, like he'd never written the 1st piece.  So now I just take his articles as 'pot stirring' and see who gets taken in by them.

[Five minute major]

There is simply no comparison AT ALL to the 1987 team.   That team could hit the hell out of the ball.  It also was loaded with team leaders like Puckett, Hrbek, Gladden etc.  This team has none of the aformentioned.   I would also take Viola and Blyleven in the playoffs over any our current starters.    The 87 team was a blast to watch because it was a very entertaining style for the time.    This current team lacks absolutely any passion or grit and is about to set a strikeout record!  

Bad article.

 

[Greglw3]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:27 PM, Seth Stohs said:

I know there are some that don't enjoy reading some of Souhan's stuff. But I think this was a fantastic article, and I think something we all needed to read. 

He added, "When and how did Minnesotans become the cork-sniffers of the sports world?"

Souhan isn't exactly one to sugar-coat things for the Twins. So this is a surprising article. And I think filled with truth. 

https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-twins-fans-need-dose-of-realism-pablo-lopez-sonny-gray-jim-souhan/600296873/

 

While Souhan has a point, in that if the Twins get into the playoffs, its not unthinkable that they could get on a roll with Lopez, Gray, Maeda/Ober, maybe Ryan if he gets healthy. That analogy is good.

Where the analogy isn’t so good centers around 2 key points and a minor one:

1-

The Twins OF of Gladden, Puckett and Brunanskey was far superior to the low batting average OF of the 2023 Twins.

I’d say the same about the IF of Gaetti, Smalley, Lombardozzi and Hrbek but Julian and Lewis are seriously mitigating that difference but still...

You could even give the Catcher win to the 2023 Twins. 

2-

I think a lot of people are not aware of this but when the Twins clinched the division, they were 85-72, 13 games over .500. I followed that team extremely closely. At that pace they would have won 88 games. Might have won 90.

TK decided to play virtual spring training lineups for ALL of the remaining 5 games. I must have been a cork sniffer 'cause I was very disappointed in that because I thought it would stain the reputation of a very good team, a possible 90 win team and it has.

When he compares the 85 wins to the 84 wins, I call foul for the reasons described above.

3- The minor point is that Les Straker was not a horrible pitcher with around a 4.5 ERA and actually gave up 5 less hits than IP.

Andy MacPhail did a better job of supplementing the bullpen than Falvey has although that could be arguable. The ERAs of the bullpen don’t blow one away but additions of Berenguer and Reardon were key.

I’m not buying his article although I just read the start of it and your description of it. The Twins offense has been badly mismanaged both in the offseason and at the trade deadline. The bullpen, obviously lacking was not addressed. So, frankly Twins fans do have something to snoot about. Again, the mitigation is the astonishing ascendance of Julien and Lewis, who we knew was great.

Counterbalancing that, the FO deserves credit for putting together a rotation of Lopez, Gray, Ryan, Maeda, Ober, Varland and I suppose Mahle, I feel like I might be missing somebody but the point is the same.

I also feel that Rocco Baldelli has made big strides as a manager in several different areas, bunting, safety squeezing, stealing and platooning to help win games that the one-dimensional approach wouldn’t have. I was a critic of his but have to give him credit where credit is due.

If things come together, as Lopez seems to be gathering more and more steam, Gray keeps his ERA around 3 and if Duran comes back strong and Jax pitches really well and even Pagan (that blow 'em away inning recently, good old country hardball, was extremely impressive and called to mind Goose Gossage and Mark Littel of the Royals. Maybe Ober or Maeda or Ryan steps up big as the 3rd cog, that’s the strength of Souhan’s argument.

[Heiny]

On 8/16/2023 at 7:07 AM, Boom Boom said:

The game has changed so much since 87 that comparing the 23 Twins with that team is meaningless. There were 2 fewer playoff rounds back then. 

And going all the way back to 87 ignores the last 20 (!) years of Twins playoff futility, which is equally relevant to this year's squad.  

IMO Souhan comes off as an old fart here.  Twins fans under the age of 40 aren't going to relate to this column, but they probably don't read newspapers anyway.

 

 

 

 

What's a newspaper?????

[Teflon]

Who's to say the 1987 Twins fans wouldn't have been complaining, too? There was no social media, no internet in 1987 so the only grumbling would have been much less conspicuous - especially as the Twins were failing miserably (29-52) on the road again and again that year. Give the 1987 fans Twitter X and Twins Daily and see if their day-to-day state of annoyance would have been so different.

[Linus]

I don’t feel that much has changed over the years. With a certain group of fans there is no winning. Terry Ryan practically got blamed for bad weather. I believe most fans are fairly even handed albeit the quiet majority. The part that is irksome is for Souhan to act like it is unreasonable to question or have concerns about the team or front office. Perhaps he doesn’t follow the Twins all that closely as there are plenty of reasonable reasons to be critical. 

[wabene]

On 8/15/2023 at 6:26 PM, stringer bell said:

Pretty much agree with this take (and Souhan's). To be specific, offering criticism is fine with me and should be accepted by all for what it is. However, waiting for something to go wrong so the player/manager/front office can be raked over the coals is beyond the pale if you ask me. 

And boring as all get out.

[wabene]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:54 PM, Squirrel said:

Welcome to TD game threads where a number of posters wait until that moment to join the thread.

To me this is just hilarious and it's the same few every time. I guess they feel they have an important role to fill, lol

[ziggy]

Quote

   On 8/15/2023 at 8:54 PM,  Squirrel said: 

Welcome to TD game threads where a number of posters wait until that moment to join the thread.

To me this is just hilarious and it's the same few every time. I guess they feel they have an important role to fill, lol

Ok, just what is the correct time to 'join" in for the' important role'? Is there a secret password? Do us new posters wait for an interlude in the conversation? If two or more posters  with over 1,000 posts are conversing are we even alloowed into the thread? Just what are the rules for 'joining'?

[USAFChief]

14 minutes ago, ziggy said:

Ok, just what is the correct time to 'join" in for the' important role'? Is there a secret password? Do us new posters wait for an interlude in the conversation? If two or more posters  with over 1,000 posts are conversing are we even alloowed into the thread? Just what are the rules for 'joining'?

I pretty much guarantee people will converse with you or anyone on a game thread. 

Just jump in. With both feet.

[ewen21]

This article reads like “how dare you criticize this team you snotty person”

I am not offended but don’t appreciate it as a fan because he is talking about fans criticizing this team.  It’s basically a piece saying that Twins fans can’t make valid criticisms.  Souhan is no better than fans here he’d pass off as rubes.

There is a disconnect in the media that covers this team.  They are not asking the right questions and they are putting their energy in the wrong places.  We’ve had this Buxton situation carry on for months without anything concrete about his knee.  If they are doing their jobs they are pressing to Twins on this one.  This is allowed to go on because our press corps is weak.  How about that? How about they start asking the tough questions and stop going for the low hanging fruit.  Who does this team play for if they don’t play for the fans?  They don’t have a career without fans.

[ewen21]

On 8/17/2023 at 5:41 PM, Linus said:

I don’t feel that much has changed over the years. With a certain group of fans there is no winning. Terry Ryan practically got blamed for bad weather. I believe most fans are fairly even handed albeit the quiet majority. The part that is irksome is for Souhan to act like it is unreasonable to question or have concerns about the team or front office. Perhaps he doesn’t follow the Twins all that closely as there are plenty of reasonable reasons to be critical. 

When he quit in 2007 he pretty much admitted the game had passed him by.  Then he came back!

 

You are correct about Souhan.  We probably care a whole lot more about this team than he does.  I will never understand how some complain about fans who criticize the team.  If you don’t have the stomach for fans who criticize then toughen up.  I live in NY state.  Souhan ought spend a month someplace in NY or somewhere in New England to get perspective.  The players play for the fan and as far as fans go Twins fans are polite and loyal!  Without a loyal fan base the team gets contracted.  Does he not remember those days?  Twins fans are mild in that they dish out.  Let a guy like Buxton play in NY, Chicago, Boston, or Philadelphia.  
 

I would understand an article like this  if Twins fans booed the team or ranted daily on the radio like some fans in the markets I mentioned do.  The criticism is limited to outposts on the internet and it is pretty tame if you ask me.  I’m probably on the extreme end so he must be talking about me!