Is Development Still Broken?

[Vanimal46]

SSS alert: Everyone that was traded except Zach Duke is performing better with their new team than they did with the Twins.

 

Eduardo Escobar: 37 PA - .344/.378/.469 4 doubles 3 RBI

 

Brian Dozier: 18 PA - .400/.500/.1000 2 HR 7 RBI

 

Ryan Pressly: 3 appearances - 4.1 IP - 2.08 ERA - 5/0 K/BB

 

Lance Lynn: 2 appearances - 11.2 IP - 0.00 ERA - 14/1 K/BB

 

Rome wasn't built in a day, I realize. Is it fair to say development is still broken at One Twins Way?

[NapoleonComplex]

It puzzles me. I personally believe there is an issue in the clubhouse. Some sort of tension either between players and coaches, coaches and FO, players and FO ... or all of the above. Seems like a toxic work environment immediately improved by a change of scenery.

[Vanimal46]

It boggles my mind too. The one that sticks out the most is Lynn. I was shocked anyone would trade breathing baseball players for him. And last night he pitched his best game of the season. Granted it was against the White Sox... He still attacked the strike zone and all of a sudden has command again after leaving the team.

[Drew]

Beyond the joke of a sample size these guys are all veterans, 2 of whom were already having very good years, who shouldn't need developing. Escobar has actually lowered his OPS with Arizona and Pressly's FIP has gone up by almost a full run. 

[NapoleonComplex]

14/1 K/BB in 11 2/3 since Lynn put on pinstripes. I understand Dozier's current hot streak because we've seen it multiple times. Escobar has been steady all season, so that makes sense. The same with Pressly. But Lance Lynn ... I just don't get it.

 

Maybe it isn't a clubhouse problem? Maybe we're only befuddled because the one guy we didn't expect to see improve is doing so in a big way - albeit a SSS.

[Vanimal46]

Beyond the joke of a sample size these guys are all veterans, 2 of whom were already having very good years, who shouldn't need developing. Escobar has actually lowered his OPS with Arizona and Pressly's FIP has gone up by almost a full run.

This game requires constant tweaking and coaching no matter your age. I don't agree these guys no longer need development. Otherwise Gibson would still be a sinker ball pitcher trying to induce ground balls.

[Circus Boy]

Not surprising at all to see former Twins do well. The pressure of futures up in the air does funny things to us all, not least to elite athletes. Once that pressure's off, everything seems easy-peasy again, like Little League.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Not surprising at all to see former Twins do well. The pressure of futures up in the air does funny things to us all, not least to elite athletes. Once that pressure's off, everything seems easy-peasy again, like Little League.

 

Interesting, I wonder what the data says about guys traded and their success after the deal......I may have to find it. If I had to guess, it isn't true that most players do better after being traded than they were doing all year until then, but that would be a guess.

[amjgt]

Let’s talk in September when the smallness of the sample isn’t so comical.

[Craig Arko]

if it were me, I'd be very careful about letting confirmation bias interpret insignificant sampling.

 

But then it's not me.

[alarp33]

 

SSS alert: Everyone that was traded except Zach Duke is performing better with their new team than they did with the Twins.

Eduardo Escobar: 37 PA - .344/.378/.469 4 doubles 3 RBI

Brian Dozier: 18 PA - .400/.500/.1000 2 HR 7 RBI

Ryan Pressly: 3 appearances - 4.1 IP - 2.08 ERA - 5/0 K/BB

Lance Lynn: 2 appearances - 11.2 IP - 0.00 ERA - 14/1 K/BB

Rome wasn't built in a day, I realize. Is it fair to say development is still broken at One Twins Way?

 

Seriously? We're talking about whether the Twins can develop players based on some veterans with 18 and 37 plate appearances and pitchers with 4 and 11 innings pitched?

 

This is especially funny using Escobar and Dozier, two players who literally got the most possible out of their talent while with the Twins, and turned into WAY better players than anyone could've ever predicted

[Mike Sixel]

In fairness, it might be something other than that.....like, you know, that 15 page thread we had on chemistry.....and not development.....

[nicksaviking]

I agree that it's probably nothing to do with development as these guys are veterans. I'd also agree that a winning atmosphere likely is a motivating factor for some of these guys. Escobar and Pressly were already playing well for the Twins so I don't know that there's much to read into with them. Dozier and Lynn have definitely perked up, but their lousy play with the Twins likely was a large part of why the Twins didn't have a "winning atmosphere".

 

And while I was never interested in signing Lynn to begin with, his early season struggles are pretty typical of guys who don't sign until spring training. I'd put a lot of his Twins struggles on that.

[jorgenswest]

I think once you say small sample you stop the thought and wait on the sample.

 

Slash stats need a full season. ERA multiple seasons. Strike out and walk rates will stabilize for the hitters and starting pitchers by the end of the season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

SSS alert: Everyone that was traded except Zach Duke is performing better with their new team than they did with the Twins.

Eduardo Escobar: 37 PA - .344/.378/.469 4 doubles 3 RBI

Brian Dozier: 18 PA - .400/.500/.1000 2 HR 7 RBI

Ryan Pressly: 3 appearances - 4.1 IP - 2.08 ERA - 5/0 K/BB

Lance Lynn: 2 appearances - 11.2 IP - 0.00 ERA - 14/1 K/BB

Rome wasn't built in a day, I realize. Is it fair to say development is still broken at One Twins Way?

The only guy who wasn't good with the Twins and is good with their current team is Dozier.

 

Lynn's line was ugly but he was solid overall once you got past April's disaster. Pressly and Escobar were good in Minnesota, which is why they brought back the best overall returns in trade.

[Drew]

 

This game requires constant tweaking and coaching no matter your age. I don't agree these guys no longer need development. Otherwise Gibson would still be a sinker ball pitcher trying to induce ground balls

 

It takes longer than a week to fundamentally change an approach to such a degree that someone becomes a different player. 

[bird]

Add me to the people wondering about attitudes and not questioning development. I'd love to hear from an expert on nonverbal interpersonal communication regarding the body language we saw from both Lynn and Morrison so often this year. I don't know if what I saw was a sign of frustration, disgruntlement, both, or neither, but I can tell you I saw something, and it sure wasn't positive. If we were flies on the clubhouse wall, do you think we may have heard some griping and negativity from those guys, to name two?

 

Gardy had his massive faults, but I wonder if he couldn't teach Molitor a thing or two about maintaining a good clubhouse vibe in the face of prolonged adversity.

[slash129]

It seems some are using player development and clubhouse chemistry almost interchangeably in some of these replies.  I'm sure one can effect the other and vice versa. The two circles may even overlap a bit. However, they aren't the same thing.

[ewen21]

There are development issues, in my opinion.

 

HOwever, the examples used just don't fit

[Doomtints]

 

I was shocked anyone would trade breathing baseball players for him.

 

I wasn't. He's a good pitcher.

[Squirrel]

Mod note: Stop the bickering ... if you don't like a thread and find it to be a 'joke' to you, it's simple, don't respond. And don't respond to the response, either.

[Seth Stohs]

 

SSS alert: Everyone that was traded except Zach Duke is performing better with their new team than they did with the Twins.

Eduardo Escobar: 37 PA - .344/.378/.469 4 doubles 3 RBI

Brian Dozier: 18 PA - .400/.500/.1000 2 HR 7 RBI

Ryan Pressly: 3 appearances - 4.1 IP - 2.08 ERA - 5/0 K/BB

Lance Lynn: 2 appearances - 11.2 IP - 0.00 ERA - 14/1 K/BB

Rome wasn't built in a day, I realize. Is it fair to say development is still broken at One Twins Way?

 

Maybe or maybe not... but it wouldn't be because of this... 

[Han Joelo]

Edit:  Ah, never mind.

 

Seriously, I (probably mis-)remember a couple of springs ago how Dozier, ____,____, and ???? were helping to integrate Park into the clubhouse by inviting him over to some ragers where they watched reruns of the Bachelor or something.  Imagine this post, hard-loss exchange from early May:

 

Lance Lynn:  "Man, that sucked.  Tomorrow's another day.  Who wants to go get a beer?"

 

Brian Dozier:  "Um, yeah, well actually, in this clubhouse, after a loss, we usually get together and watch old episodes of the Bachelor.  Nothing can blunt the sting of a loss quite like watching sincere love go unrequited."

 

Logan:  "The Bachelor?  Dude, I've got the complete series of the Chappelle Show.  Lance will bring the PBR."

 

Brian:  "Um, well we were going to watch at my house, and I'm pretty sure there is swearing and whatnot on Chappelle, so maybe not.  And don't worry about beer, my fridge is well-stocked with La Croix and Ginger Ale."

 

Lance: "You know, I'm pretty tired.  Think I'll go back to the hotel and try to spot naked chicks while I Google Earth the 29 other Major League cities."

 

Logan: "There's only like 25 brah.  Yeah, I'm just going to head back to the KOA myself.  Probably plink some chipmunks with my BB gun and then pass out in the back of the ol camper van."

 

Brian: "Well, the offer stands.  After losses, my wife makes a mean batch of Funeral Potatoes; you're always welcome."

 

 

[Han Joelo]

The moral of the story, then, is that 4 out of 5 Twins prefer hanging out at the KOA shooting BB guns to any other option.

[yarnivek1972]

If they continue to do better, I would suspect it has more to do with being around better players or (especially for the pitchers) being put in a role more likely to help them succeed.

[Major League Ready]

 

This game requires constant tweaking and coaching no matter your age. I don't agree these guys no longer need development. Otherwise Gibson would still be a sinker ball pitcher trying to induce ground balls.

 

None of them have had enough time with the new teams to implement any tweaks. They were traded and there has been an uptick in their performance. End of story. I seriously doubt there was any "development" done. The possible exception might be that the Dodger hitting coach said "hey Brian what's up with trying to pull every pitch on the outside edge of the strike zone."

[h2oface]

 

SSS alert: Everyone that was traded except Zach Duke is performing better with their new team than they did with the Twins.

Eduardo Escobar: 37 PA - .344/.378/.469 4 doubles 3 RBI

Brian Dozier: 18 PA - .400/.500/.1000 2 HR 7 RBI

Ryan Pressly: 3 appearances - 4.1 IP - 2.08 ERA - 5/0 K/BB

Lance Lynn: 2 appearances - 11.2 IP - 0.00 ERA - 14/1 K/BB

Rome wasn't built in a day, I realize. Is it fair to say development is still broken at One Twins Way?

 

Pressly, in his first appearance with the Astros, was brought in in the top of the 7th to hold the fort, with Houston playing at home and trailing 2-1. Verlander was the pitcher of record. First batter he pitched to for Houston..... Rougned Odor.... slammed a solo homer. So some things are the same......

[jimmer]

We have had quite a few high draft picks and/or highly ranked prospects do either nothing or have ended up grossly underachieving with us. Do we really think there is no development problem?

[Blake]

Last season was a lot of fun for the players and the fans, but, the players have had to endure multiple 90+ loss seasons before the playoff team of last year.

 

Constantly losing wears on a person and it stands to reason that being able to put that atmosphere behind one would help a player to relax and have a better attitude and, perhaps, perform a bit better.

 

I won't be surprised if the players that were traded continue to do well. In fact, I wish them all the best, because they now have a solid chance at an extended post-season run.

[Riverbrian]

 

SSS alert: Everyone that was traded except Zach Duke is performing better with their new team than they did with the Twins.

Eduardo Escobar: 37 PA - .344/.378/.469 4 doubles 3 RBI

Brian Dozier: 18 PA - .400/.500/.1000 2 HR 7 RBI

Ryan Pressly: 3 appearances - 4.1 IP - 2.08 ERA - 5/0 K/BB

Lance Lynn: 2 appearances - 11.2 IP - 0.00 ERA - 14/1 K/BB

Rome wasn't built in a day, I realize. Is it fair to say development is still broken at One Twins Way?

 

Van... I want you to know that I noticed the SSS immediately and understood that you understood. 

 

I don't believe that the new teams were able to immediately fix development issues but I do believe that the Twins development model is broken because they are consistent in rewarding mediocre or below mediocre play which makes it possible to set the bar for immediate improvement extremely low.