It's Time to End the Byron Buxton Experiment at Designated Hitter

[specialiststeve]

As I had said before the season and I will stick with it.. Polanco needs to be the every day DH. We has so many good options at 2B it only makes sense.. Options in center.. well not so much. If Bux is healthy his value is AS much in the OF and likely more than at the plate. Just have to tell him.. NO running into fences-time to grow up and pull up! 

[sun]

BB has been able to come out of slumps in the past by returning from a stint on the IL. I think that's what the Twins should do by putting him on the IL even if that means doing a rehab assignment before coming back. It still may mean "no centerfield" this year (or less) but at least he'll have a chance to be an effective DH. Ii think the FO needs to be able to adjust to situations quicker than they have, such as by bringing up players that have a hot bat and not waiting for players with a cold bat to heat up. Otherwise in the meantime the Twins can lose games and waste good pitching performances.. Since that's the purpose of the IL, the Twins should make use of it.

[LastOnePicked]

This is 2023 Buxton we're talking about here. That Buxton cannot sustain the impact of patrolling CF. If we want to maximize what Buck has to offer, this is the only way forward. We can hate it, but that's who he is now and it's where we are now. Chances are this isn't going to be a productive contract. Let's all hope we can get a little more magic at the plate from him - and for him - before the contention window closes.

[PatPfund]

It isn't really time yet, but that time may be coming fast as more of the younger players start to take their deserved spot in the batting order. The real problem isn't Byron's bat compared to the rest of the league, it is Byron's bat (or really Byron/MAT combined) vs an alternative (or the alternative/Byron combined). (And FYI, you say "including" MAT's better performance in April like you should only count the worst games. Not sure why; output goes up and down for everyone.)

Of the alternatives you mention, only Polanco makes much sense to me (Gallo's value plummets if you take away D, Correa has been dreadful so far, and probably should go on the DL), because it is really Kepler keeping Wallner (and Larnach) in the minors more than it is Byron. But mixing in Jorge, Solano, Kirilloff, Lewis, Farmer, Jeffers, and giving Wallner/Larnach more play in the DH spot makes a lot of sense, and if Miranda snaps out of it and re-finds himself, the pressure to get Byron back in the OF grows rapidly. This offense needs more quality at-bats, even if it means heightened risk to Buxton, and Max Kepler being traded/DFA'd soon. (Love Max, but he looks like this year's Tyler Duffey.)

[walkstar89]

Two things seem pretty obvious at this point

 1. Clearly team would benefit immensely from him playing CF

 

2. Clearly he is not healthy enough to do so.

The scary thing is I'm guessing this isn't a "go on the IL and get right" type of injury. After all, he had all off-season and is only DH and still isn't healthy. Some athletes bodies just stop working right, and all the modern medicine in the world can't fix that. Plenty of examples across baseball and other sports of careers ended or severely compromised by chronic injury 

[Dave Borton]

His knee is shot. He had it scoped last Sept. If it hasn't healed by now, it is not going to. He is probably running bone on bone but the Twins FO isn't going to let that cat out of the bag.

Here's your DH.........Byron Buxton.

[sun]

4 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

I'm not going to comment at length because you can read what I have to say on the Byron Buxton thread in the Minnesota Twins Talk Forum. But I will say again that I am certain that every Twins employee wants Buck to play center field if that's feasible. I am also certain that every Twins employee tries to make the best decisions possible based on what they know. It is clear that people who are aware of all the facts have concluded that it's not in anyone's best interest to manage Buck differently than what is being done now. And, may I also say to those complaining that he should be managed differently: just give it up already.

This decision to make BB a DH was made months ago and it's becoming more apparent that it's not working out as planned. Even SI headlined an article with the title that BB & CC were hurting the Twins. I didn't bother reading it but I noticed the headline.

The FO wouldn't be doing its job if they didn't at least try to come up with a better plan if the slump persists. The Twins haven't been consistent enough to win against teams that are considered weaker despite good pitching. The FO's decision can also affect the Twins attendance and bottom line as well as their overall win-loss record. If you don't believe that the FO notices the impact of sub-par player performance then think again. Mediocrity can also lead other good players to not want to play for the Twins.

Putting BB on the IL and replacing him temporarily would be better than watching him struggle while the team loses close games that they should be able to win. 

 

[BD57]

If Buck's injured again (there are people in this thread suggesting he is), then . . . don't know what to say.

We've done everything humanly possible to coddle him this year, to keep him from doing anything which could lead to an injury.   If he's STILL injured after all that . . . then, IMO, it's time to give up on the idea that he can ever stay healthy.

Right now, he's not helping the team.  Now, he's not the only guy not hitting but he's definitely one of them.

IMO, he's only worth the contract if he can play CF 120+ times a year.   Anything less than that & we're overpaying for the performance we're getting.

[DocBauer]

I have a hard time stating Buxton's current OPS is better than league average, and then stating he's not performing. I also disagree that his being the DH somehow has lead to injuries to other players. Huh?

A couple weeks ago I did a full season breakdown of Buck as the Twins were just hitting the 1/3 mark for the season. Roughly, he was on pace for more than 100 RUNS, just shy of 90 RBI, 30 HR, 30 DBLS, and over 20 SB. The RUNS and RBI numbers might balance out differently depending on where he hits in the lineup going forward. And the OPS was definitely over .800.

Not sure there was anything to complain about then. Now, he's gone from a brief slump to a longer one. But a week or so ago he was just fine as the DH. Considering he's always been a streaky performer, in a couple weeks he's hot again and has an .800 OPS again, are we still complaining??

Do I want Buxton in CF? You bet! I want him to play 100-120 games in CF, and get in another 20-25 at DH. What are the odds of that ever happening? So, OK, I'll settle for 90-100 games in CF and another 20-30 at DH.

If Buxton's knee/hip/whatever was healthy and strong enough to be in CF at least 2-3 games per week, don't you think he'd be out there??

Now, if you want to debate the idea of him taking an IL stint to feel better, I can understand that arguement. But it's also possible a 10 day rest isn't going to do any good. In that case, the Twins are using him at DH to keep his bat in the lineup and waiting/hoping/expecting another hot streak. 

I don't think Buxton, or the Twins, have simply decided his days in the OF are just done, period, over and out. But for NOW, I think he's the DH. Now, maybe being this conservative will allow him to start seeing CF time here and there in September to get ready for October. I think it's worth considering. But I think it's naive or short sighted to just say "you aren't right, you're hurting physically, and you're giving it all you have, including some aggressive baserunning at times, but go in to CF and make it worse so we can then shut you down." And isn't that what's being suggested here?

Again, an IL stint is a different arguement, and I'm not stating an opinion on said stint, just saying it's a different debate.

This situation is not one that ANYONE wants, but they are trying to navigate the best way they see fit to get the most out of a disappointing situation. 

As far as being a DH permanently, or semi-permanently, that is not yet determined for the future. And not everyone can convert. But finding a routine that works for Buck over time might allow him to better adapt. It was very disappointing when Paul Molitor had to move to DH because he just couldn't stay healthy. But he sure became a great one. Might Buxton do the same?

Nothing is written in stone yet in regard to the future. But this is how the Twins see making the best of the situation for the here and now. And I don't like it either. But I can at least understand they why of it. And if 2024 and beyond will have to be examined this offseason. But that's for the offseason and the future. 

[Brett]

Here’s a question. Would you rather see Byron for 80 games in CF or 140 games at DH? Maybe the Twins made their choice this year to try out their their preference - and why they’ve assembled a cast of a half dozen guys who can legitimately start in the outfield.

Batting and baserunning carry their own risks as well. As a fan, I would love to see the team putting him in CF just once a week to give Taylor a break. Make the playoffs, and then maybe, just maybe, remind us all of what we’ve been missing.

[TL]

I think the strategy is about having him (relatively) healthy and playing CF in the playoffs. We should be able to stay in the division lead and when we get to the last quarter of the season hopefully he is ready to work in there.

If he is we make the playoffs and he is in CF game 1 it will all have been worth it.

[CRF]

If Buxton's knee isn't 100% completely healed, then there is some sense to him being the DH. If he's really healthy, there's no reason to keep him at DH full time. He could play CF at least some of the time. We can't go thru the season with MAT as the regular CF. Sure, he can field the position, but his bat is very limited. There are too many holes in this lineup already, without MAT in there. We really have two guys that should be no more than late inning defensive replacements...Mat and Kepler.  

[Richie the Rally Goat]

17 hours ago, karcherd said:

Why is it frustrating for Falvey and Baldelli, it is within their control to change this and play Buxton at least part time in CF.  The fans have no control over this decision.

This gets at the heart of the debate.

Is Buxton’s health and capability to play CF in Falvine and Baldelli’s control?

I don’t think we know if he is healthy enough and capable to play CF. I do think the FO and Baldelli know. I also think if Buxton were healthy enough and capable to play CF, he would be.

everyone, Buxton, Baldelli, Falvey, Correa, would rather have Buck in CF than DH.

[DJL44]

18 hours ago, Tibs said:

On top of all of these points, Byron Buxton is a former Platinum Glove winner at CF. The team and lineup overall are simply worse with Buxton/Taylor locked in at DH/CF

I'm afraid elite defense Buxton only exists in the past now. His knee surgery was obviously not as successful as people hoped.

[MABB1959]

18 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Sad but true. The situation is very frustrating as a fan. I can’t imagine how frustrating it is for Falvey and Baldelli who would love nothing more than him playing 130 games a season in CF. 

We’re only the first year into the extension and it’s only going to get worse, I’m afraid. 

It would probably be better if they were upfront so fans (who pay a large part of their salaries) were honestly updated so we can set expectations.  Seems most likely he won’t play any position other than DH for the rest of his career.   Or at least be clear on his health (knee injury will heal and when or worse the chance of it healing is xx%).   The fans would or should not have to endure this extreme frustration and move on.  

[Maybebaby]

Pretty much all season Buck hasn't been able to hit a barn with a BB gun that said maybe a couple of games a week in the field will get the bat going🤷‍♂️

[roger]

I am saddened with Buxton not in center.  Whether it be baseball, football or hockey, I love great D.  And Buxton is as good as it gets.

None of us know the real situation with his knee.  I guess the good news is that getting nailed in the ribs will give the knee a few days of rest.  Other than that, I pray we will see Buck back in center before the season ends.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

I'm afraid elite defense Buxton only exists in the past now. His knee surgery was obviously not as successful as people hoped.

That’s the hindsight 20/20 thing that I come back to. In what we now know was a lost season, why didn’t they get his knee repaired right away and end his season early last year? Maybe coulda, woulda, shoulda…. He’s 100% and an all star.

I know, we can’t know or speculate, but I can’t help myself, playing on the bum knee last year might have contributed to the extended recover this year.

[Mydaughterhastwins]

Byron has been injured for 9 years.  He has rarely if ever been someone to rely on.  What this kid could have done with a healthy body and some physical self control could have been historic.  But after all this time it just comes down to this is who he is.  If he goes to center, or any outfield position he will wildly run into a wall or dive needlessly for a ball that only 22 year old Byron could catch, and that will be that.  His season will end.  We should not be surprised.  It has happened almost every year of his career.  It's too bad.  We all wanted him to be great.  I'm afraid that was only a dream.

[Major League Ready]

If we couldn't replace BB's production at DH, preserving him for that role would be quite important.  However, is it unrealistic to believe one of Wallner/Larnach or Julien could produce equivalently in a DH role.  If Buxton got hurt playing CF, we would put MAT back in a starting role and one of Wallner/Larnach or Julien is the DH.  Buck over MAT is a big upgrade.  Replacing Buck with one of the three mention not such a big downgrade at DH.  Perhaps no downgrade at all.

[saviking]

Mathew, what a great article. It articulately says what I have been feeling for several days now.. 

I think Buxton is a better hitter when he's in the field. If they feel Buxton's knees won't allow him to play in the outfield anymore, they should have made him a first baseman and not signed Gallo

[wabene]

21 hours ago, High heat said:

The fix in the mean time is the twins need to tell Kepler if he wants to stay on this team he needs to get his at bats in CF.  Kepler and Taylor split time in CF opening RF.

I agree with this. Everyone is clamouring for something to be done about our low end starting right fielder. If Kepler looks in the mirror and admits he is a low end starter at his position, maybe he would realize he could be a good strong side platoon center fielder. His bat would actually be good in that role and he wouldn't have to be so miserable about the damn thing. 

[chpettit19]

My worry about Buxton playing CF is no longer about the now, it's about the next 5 years. It goes without saying that Buxton in CF is the best possibility for this, or just about any, team. Every person employed by the Twins want to see Buxton in CF more than any of us here do. If they thought he could physically hold up to any time in CF right now he'd be getting that much time in CF. The medical people have, in my view, clearly told them his knee can't handle it. Watching him grimace and limp while just DHing seems to make that a pretty easy diagnoses from our cheap seats even.

If he can play CF in the playoffs this year I'll be happy. I don't need to see him there for a single inning before that if his knee isn't right. My questions really just revolve around whether or not it's possible for that knee to ever be right again. He's got 5 years left on his deal after this one. If this is who he is for the rest of his career it changes this entire franchise's outlook. If him taking a trip to the 60 day IL gives him a real chance to get back to 100%, and CF capable, I'd do that. If him ending his season now and having 8 months of recovery time before next season gets him back to 100%, and CF capable, I'd do that. If there's no real amount of rest that can truly fix his knee then just keep DHing him until the playoffs and hope he can man CF then. Don't ruin his knee for the next 5 years just to keep his struggling bat in the lineup now. They can't be that shortsighted now. They can't afford to throw away 15 mil on him for the next 3-5 years (he has a full no trade clause for 3 more years)

But just because he's Byron Buxton doesn't mean he has to hit in the top 4 of the order. DH him everyday to get his bat going again, but put him towards the bottom of the lineup. It's June. Performance needs to be the dictator of play now, not what you hoped a guy was going to be (also looking at that Kepler fella in right, and Correa's lineup positioning, and Garlick even being on the team).

[Blyleven2011]

1 hour ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

That’s the hindsight 20/20 thing that I come back to. In what we now know was a lost season, why didn’t they get his knee repaired right away and end his season early last year? Maybe coulda, woulda, shoulda…. He’s 100% and an all star.

I know, we can’t know or speculate, but I can’t help myself, playing on the bum knee last year might have contributed to the extended recover this year.

He was awful playing injured last year and hampered his hitting  ...

He may have changed his approach in batting to compromise his injury and it has effected his swing  ,  maybe he should look at past videos of himself hitting good and videos of him hitting today   ....

[wabene]

When you consider Lewis and his 2 consecutive ACL surgeries, he may be fully healthy and strong for the remainder of his career. The surgeon was quoted as saying you could keep having that surgery over and over as long as the attachment point of the ligament was intact. There may be no other damage in his knee meaning it is fully healthy.

Unfortunately, even with modern technology, there is no real fix for damaged knee cartilage. If there was, there are many ageing, super wealthy athletes that would have extended their careers with it. Kinda like how Ted Danson still has a big bald spot, lol. If there was a cure... When you hear that a knee is being scoped, that is cleaning up damaged cartilage. This can be a chronic condition and may be where Byron is at, sadly. 

[mnfireman]

I think we will see Buxton on the IL before we see him in CF. 

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, I think the team should have placed him on the IL after he hurt the knee against Boston last season, he may have damaged the knee more by continuing to play on it, as witnessed by the fact he didn't have surgery until November despite being shut down at the end of August. Sano (bad example, I know) returned in about 6 weeks from his surgery, if Buxton would  have had the surgery immediately after the injury, he is back around mid- June/early July.

The team also should have been a little more vocal about him skipping the All-Star game and getting that injection/treatment instead. Personal accolades are fine, but this is a team sport and his team needed him healthy (as much so as possible anyway) for the 2nd half.

I am as big a fan/supporter of Buxton as anybody, but I don't think we'll see him CF any time soon.

[shabbos1]

44 minutes ago, wabene said:

When you consider Lewis and his 2 consecutive ACL surgeries, he may be fully healthy and strong for the remainder of his career. The surgeon was quoted as saying you could keep having that surgery over and over as long as the attachment point of the ligament was intact. There may be no other damage in his knee meaning it is fully healthy.

Unfortunately, even with modern technology, there is no real fix for damaged knee cartilage. If there was, there are many ageing, super wealthy athletes that would have extended their careers with it. Kinda like how Ted Danson still has a big bald spot, lol. If there was a cure... When you hear that a knee is being scoped, that is cleaning up damaged cartilage. This can be a chronic condition and may be where Byron is at, sadly. 

Last season he was being treated for patellar tendinitis.  It's possible they might have cleaned up some cartilage, but the bigger focus was probably debriding the damaged parts of the patellar tendon.  

[dxpavelka]

The flaw in your argument is that the issue is that Taylor is not a good enough hitter to be the every day CF.  Which may be true.  Perhaps the cure would be to find a better bat to play CF.  File the name Nick Senzel away in your roladex.

 

[HerbieFan]

Agree.  Agree 100%.  Agree 100% with all of it.  Especially the thought that not having DH at bats for the likes of Correa, Gallo, Polanco may play a role in keeping them healthy.  

[JD-TWINS]

23 hours ago, swendel1970 said:

Buxton as a full time DH negates his greatest talent.  He’s barely above leave average as a DH.  He needs to be in CF at least 3 games per week.  Play Taylor against lefties and Kepler in CF otherwise.

Can’t read another one of these w/o commenting. Buxton is fragile - that’s who he is…..who he’s going to be. It’s like asking Bob Hayes to run half of his pass routes as slant patterns. Gotta be old to get that one.

Anyway, the plan was to play Taylor v. LH pitching & another 15 games maybe in ‘23 - that’s it. Gordon was going to start 75 games in CF v. RH pitching. He couldn’t do that in April because Polanco needed someone to fill in for him. Gordon started to pick it up by mid-May & was playing CF - he’s hurt for probably another 6 weeks. Gotta ride it out with Taylor (a little Castro) and expect to see Buxton for maybe 20 starts in July - September just to have potential flexibility in playoffs.

Saying he’s an average DH isn’t accurate since he’s 6th statistically a day or two ago. He’s been in a downward swoon - he’s streaky. Period. Dreaming - wish thinking that if he could just run a ball down in the gap (that excites you as a fan) would turn him into Joe DiMaggio is nuts!

He needs to be protected & it doesn’t matter how much money he gets paid during the year. It’s not a “we need to maximize his value” situation ……..so we’ll ignore the fact that he’s played 90% of the games this year v. 46% average in 7 of 8 years of his career.

We are finally getting his value - just not as evenly as anyone would like.