All About the Ishbias: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly with the Twins' Potential New Owners

[Cody Christie]

Few fan bases outwardly praise their ownership group. In some corners, though, Mat and Justin Ishbia have been an exception to that rule. For what have the brothers come in for celebration and blame during their time owning the Phoenix Suns?

Image courtesy of © Mark J. Rebilas-Imagn Images

Over the last 40 years, the Pohlad family has been synonymous with the Minnesota Twins, overseeing the construction of Target Field and building a reputation for their philanthropic efforts. Whispers in the sports business world suggest that the franchise could be poised for a significant shift. Justin and Mat Ishbia, the owners of the Phoenix Suns, have reportedly expressed interest in purchasing the Twins. If this happens, the Ishbias would bring a mix of innovation, ambition, and controversy to Minnesota.

A Visionary Approach to Broadcasting
In 2023, Mat Ishbia made waves in the NBA with a groundbreaking TV approach for the Phoenix Suns. As cable subscriptions decline and blackout restrictions frustrate fans, the Suns’ ownership opted for a bold solution. Rather than prioritize the bottom line, they aimed to maximize fan engagement. As Peter Labuza wrote at the time, “The idea is simple: fewer and fewer households have cable, and various fights over retransmission fees have even blacked out those who do. So rather than prioritize profits, the plan is to get as many eyeballs onto games as possible.”

According to ESPN, "The shift could cost the Suns tens of millions in guaranteed money per year in the short term, but it will boost the number of households the games are available in from around 800,000 to more than 2.8 million."

The Ishbias offered fans free HDMI-connected antennas to ensure games could reach as many households as possible. Explaining their decision, Mat Ishbia called the move “the biggest no-brainer of them all” and emphasized his commitment to the community: “It’s the right thing to do, and that’s our job as stewards of the organization.”

This radical approach has been celebrated for its emphasis on accessibility. For years, Twins fans have dealt with a confusing array of blackout rules and limited streaming options, making it difficult for many to watch games. If the Ishbias bring this model to the Twins, it could revolutionize how fans in Minnesota connect with their team.

However, bold moves like these come with financial risks. The Suns’ decision to forgo guaranteed revenue from traditional cable contracts isn't guaranteed to generate enough new fans to justify itself. For a small-market team like the Twins, which relies heavily on revenue sharing and local broadcast deals, such a strategy might be more complex to implement without impacting payroll. Would the Ishbias be willing to sacrifice some of their profit margin to prioritize fan engagement?

A Mixed Legacy in Business
While the Ishbias have earned praise for their innovative sports management, their business dealings haven’t been without controversy. Earlier this year, a class-action lawsuit was filed against United Wholesale Mortgage (UWM) and Mat Ishbia, alleging a scheme to cheat borrowers. The lawsuit claims that UWM violated federal laws, including the RICO Act, by incentivizing mortgage brokers to prioritize UWM’s interests over their clients’ needs.

Although the case is ongoing, it raises questions about Ishbia’s ethics and long-term priorities. Twins fans may wonder: will a focus on innovation and community come at the expense of transparency and trust? While Justin, not Mat, is the prospective principal owner in this reported scenario, the brothers are close and their habits of business are both likely to affect any team they purchase together.

Hands-On Ownership Group
The Ishbias' tenure as owners of the Phoenix Suns has been defined by Mat's high-energy, hands-on approach, which has garnered praise and criticism. The pair's active involvement in the team’s operations has revitalized the franchise’s image, particularly in the wake of the turmoil under previous owner Robert Sarver. Minnesota’s current ownership group has taken a very hands-off approach and trusted the people in the highest positions to make critical decisions. 

In Phoenix, the brothers have injected new life into the Suns organization, from their visible enthusiasm during games to bold decision-making in reshaping the roster. Their presence has been a breath of fresh air for fans and employees who value an owner deeply invested in the team’s success. However, this same approach has sparked concerns about over-involvement and potential micromanagement, particularly regarding the autonomy of the front office and coaching staff.

While their involvement underscores their ambition and willingness to take risks, it also raises questions about the balance of power within the organization. The Suns fired their head coach, Frank Vogel, after a first-round playoff loss to the Minnesota Timberwolves. Minnesota has already announced that Derek Falvey will be stepping into a role where he oversees the baseball and business sides of the Twins. Will new owners want to keep current employees like Falvey and manager Rocco Baldelli? This dynamic may create tension, especially if decisions are perceived as owner-driven rather than team-driven, potentially complicating the collaboration needed for sustained success.

Critics of the brothers' style point to the potential pitfalls of micromanagement in professional sports. Owners who blur the line between leadership and operational control risk undermining the expertise of their staff. While Mat’s involvement has been primarily celebrated during his early tenure, there is concern that a continued pattern of heavy-handedness could stifle the creativity and decision-making of the front office. Autonomy is often critical for building a cohesive strategy, particularly in high-pressure situations like the trade deadline or free agency. If staff feel constrained by ownership directives, it could hinder the team’s ability to adapt and make independent decisions that align with long-term goals.

On the other hand, supporters of Ishbia’s approach argue that his passion and accessibility set a positive tone for the organization. His hands-on leadership style, while unconventional, can inspire employees and players alike, by demonstrating a deep commitment to excellence. In some ways, his micromanagement tendencies may reflect a desire to right the wrongs of the past, ensuring that the team operates with accountability and transparency. However, striking the right balance between active involvement and allowing professionals to lead remains a critical challenge for Ishbia as he continues to guide the Suns. Whether his hands-on style fosters long-term success or leads to friction will depend on his ability to trust his team while maintaining the enthusiasm that has already made an impact.

The Bottom Line for Twins Fans
The Ishbias' interest in purchasing the Twins represents an exciting opportunity and a significant gamble. Their tenure with the Suns has demonstrated a commitment to bold ideas, such as prioritizing accessibility over short-term profits. A similar approach in Minnesota could make Twins games more widely available than ever before, reconnecting the team with fans who have felt left out of the fold in recent years.

On the flip side, questions about their financial practices, micromanagement, and the risks associated with their TV model leave room for skepticism. Would the Ishbias’ approach lead to a brighter future for the Twins, or could their boldness backfire in a market where financial stability is key?

For now, the idea of the Ishbias owning the Twins is purely speculative. But if their bid becomes reality, Twins fans could be in for a fascinating new chapter. It is shaping up to be as promising as it is uncertain.

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Should their ownership approach worry fans? Leave a comment and start the discussion.

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[Brandon27]

I would love  to see new owners but it's a hard pass from me on having the two brothers owning the twins if they get to have the twins I have feeling once that lease is up bye bye twins 

[Cory Engelhardt]

I suppose you have a point in the worries; are there truly ethical billionaires? I suppose it’s whatever viewpoint you share right?

If they enjoy baseball, and treat the Twins as more than a bottom line, then I will be happy as a fan of the team

[jmlease1]

4 minutes ago, Brandon27 said:

I would love  to see new owners but it's a hard pass from me on having the two brothers owning the twins if they get to have the twins I have feeling once that lease is up bye bye twins 

That risk is out there for any owner that's not a MN resident/native. But the Twins lease isn't short, neither Ishbia lives/works in a city that doesn't already have a team (and they're from Detroit), and MLB wants MSP as a market. Yes, Justin Ishbia has ties to Nashville, but it's not like he's been living/working there for the past 20 years. If he buys the Twins, by the time the lease is up he'll have spent more time in MSP than he did in Nashville for law school.

There's some risk to any new owner that they're going to be a yahoo, a fool, make promises they can't fulfill, etc. They're billionaires and the vast majority of them aren't exactly good people (IMHO). But in the MLB world of no salary cap and limited revenue sharing and no realistic means for community ownership...they're a pretty good fit. They're baseball fans, especially Justin. They're insanely wealthy and not afraid to use that wealth. They seem interested in sports franchises because they like sports and want to win, rather than just having them as assets to make themselves more wealthy in 7-10 years. And they certainly seem to be people that would take a short-term financial hit in order to compete for a title.

I ain't rooting for any billionaire, and I'm sure the Ishbia's have done some shady crap (or simply permitted it) in pursuit of having All The Wealth (let's not pretend the Pohlads' hands are clean; Carl made the family money in banking, an industry well-known for always playing fair, right?). But in terms of purely sports ownership...the Ishbias could be a great fit for the Twins.

[Fatbat]

You can always tell how people view life by their opinion of rich people. These brothers obviously are profit oriented or they wouldn’t be so polarizing. At least they have a vision to build their product instead of “right sizing” it. As a twins fan, its obvious that they are successful as the Suns owners. As Twins owners, they won’t act like the Pohlads. We get better access and most likely a better product to enjoy.  SOLD. 

[Fatbat]

@jmlease1 They will probably try to buy Target Field so they have total control.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Spending gobs of money, firing the entire FO and managerial staff... TD commentors should be doing handsprings right now

[arby58]

42 minutes ago, Brandon27 said:

I would love  to see new owners but it's a hard pass from me on having the two brothers owning the twins if they get to have the twins I have feeling once that lease is up bye bye twins 

The Twins lease has a non-relocation clause that is effective through 2039. Seems highly unlikely that a new owner who wants to relocate the franchise would be buying now to relocate in 15 years.

[William K Johnson]

Anything is an improvement over the Pohlads.

[mluebker]

Baseball isn’t basketball and the Twin Cities aren’t Phoenix. They’ll need a whole new instruction manual to be successful MLB owners.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

As scenarios like this go, we’ve got to be pleased that these guys check many of the right boxes to be good for the Twins. Certainly they aren’t perfect but that’s a relative term. Billionaires usually didn’t get that way by being pillars of virtue, and there are many who scare me much more than they do. If they buy the team there will certainly be some changes.  Some we may like and some we won’t.  
 

Let’s just hope that the process plays out quickly and they are either in and buying the team or out and another bidder materializes.   

[Rod Carews Birthday]

4 minutes ago, mluebker said:

Baseball isn’t basketball and the Twin Cities aren’t Phoenix. They’ll need a whole new instruction manual to be successful MLB owners.

Yes, a little, but good owners employ the right people to run the team so they don’t need to know everything.  

[Fatbat]

16 minutes ago, mluebker said:

Baseball isn’t basketball and the Twin Cities aren’t Phoenix. They’ll need a whole new instruction manual to be successful MLB owners.

Banking/mortgage lending isn’t pro-sports but its worked out well for some. 

[JD-TWINS]

The Pope could make an offer or show interest in the Twins and he’d get picked apart for a dozen reasons. There’s no such thing as a perfect scenario for the buying group…they’re too frugal ……they’re idiots ……they’ll hire idiots ……they will move club…… etc., etc.

Hope for the best but get used to having a different point of view from ownership on something.

Can’t imagine an aggressive sort, Ishbia, being content (ever) to build a Team in a location/city so he can move it 15 years from now - doesn’t seem very realistic.

I’m pretty confident that any new owner group will employ baseball people to run the Team…..good or bad?

[peterb18]

The Twins are a mid-market team!

[LambchoP]

Hopefully whoever the new owners are just do what's best for the team. Make sure the all the games are accessible and watchable and be willing to spend a bit of dough to put together a winning team year after year. Imagine the possibilities of the team this year of we had just another 40-50 million to play with....

[TopGunn#22]

There is no downside to this potential ownership change.  NONE.  The Pohlad Family is worth $3.8 billion.  The Ishbia brothers have a combined net worth of $12-$14 billion.  As an ownership group, the potential positives of the Ishbia brothers far outweigh any of the Pohlad family.

The huge disparity of the scale of wealth aside, it's the willingness of the Ishbia brothers to use that wealth to better the ballclub and the baseball viewing public that sets them so far apart from the Pohlad family.  

Consider this:  It was the Pohlad family that nearly had the Twins contracted.  And this happened after the Twins had won 2 World Series Championships in a 5 year period.  After all the angst of failing in the playoffs throughout 2002-2010 and then the wandering in the desert years of 2011-2018, then the 2019-2020 resurgence and fall of 2021-2022, only to see the playoff curse broken in 2023 and then to see the shocking "right-sizing" of the payroll and eventual collapse of 2024, leading into the off season winter of discontent that a roster with talent but some obvious holes needs FURTHER "right-sizing" the Pohlad's are finally on their way out.

It was pointed out by Jud Zulgad in a Skor North episode that the whole idea of "right-sizing" began when Jim Pohlad handed the keys over to Joe Pohlad following the tremendous 2023 season.  It became obvious very soon after the season ended that Joe Pohlad and the rest of the family weren't interested in owning the Twins any longer.

Rather than "right-sizing" the business in the 2023 off season, the Pohlad's should have just put the team up for sale right then.  Instead, what followed was a detonation of any good will toward the Pohlad family by the fan base and the writing was plain to see on the right field wall of Target Field that the Pohlad family would never again have any trust or good will from this fanbase. 

In our lifetimes as Twins fans we've had the Griffith family and Pohlad family who became famous for their penurious ways.  Now, there is a glimmer of hope that a couple brothers, whose net worth dwarfs the Pohlad family, may be interested in buying the Twins.  I hope their interest is serious. 

The Pohlad's have not left themselves in a very strong position to sell the team.  They are coming off a season with an historic collapse on the field, destroying any positive energy the brothers could have inherited with the fan base, and the Pohlad's still have a team that in "their business model" is too heavy on payroll.

This to me means the Pohlad's should be motivated to sell.  And sell quickly.  Get their money and slink out of the public spotlight.  They should be consulting the Ishbia brothers about any major moves/trades/signings.  Trade Carlos Correa?!?!?  Better ask the brothers.  Make a trade for Yandy Diaz??  Better ask the brothers.  Go all in for Roki Sasaki???  Better ask the brothers !!!

And if I'm the brothers, I want input on any of these moves if I'm going to give the Pohlad's anything close to their hopeful/desired price.  Absent a sale, what are the Pohlad's budgeting for ticket sales this year?  Have the Pohlad's done ANYTHING to compel anyone to come and watch their team??  Absolutely Not.  As far as their FO and current manager?  I don't know if Falvey could do more with a different ownership group or payroll flexibility.  Would the Twins under Falvey with the Ishbia brothers be more aggressive in making moves during the off season as opposed to being purely reactionary?  In fact, I don't even think I could characterize Falvey and Co. as reactionary.  It's more like a "Wall Flower" strategy.  Hang by the wall in the shadows until the dance ends and then just go home having danced with nobody.  This FO more often than not simply dumpster dives.  That's not a strategy and it's terribly frustrating.  It's not a given anyone in the FO or Rocco would be around for the 2026 season if a sale was made.  

Anyone who has amassed the wealth that the Pohlad's or Ishbia brothers has, has probably stepped on a few toes.  That's business.  Always has been, always will be.  But for the billionaire owning the teams I cheer for...Twins, Vikings, T-Wolves, Wild, I want MY billionaire to care more about a winning team and interesting product than what the profit margin is.  Ford Motor Company, Target, etc... are NOT the Minnesota Twins.  Ford has never won a World Series, and they never will (theoretically).  

But I want the Twins to win the World Series,  The Vikings the Super Bowl.  The T-Wolves the NBA Championship and the Wild the Stanly Cup.  So I want those ownership groups to put winning and an exciting product FIRST.  Not Profit Margins.  This sale can't happen soon enough for me.  

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, Fatbat said:

@jmlease1 They will probably try to buy Target Field so they have total control.

More power to them. If they own the stadium, then they're also less likely to move; it's not like you can take the stadium with you. I'd be happy for them to be responsible for all stadium improvements and development around the area, and Hennepin County can always use the cash. But I wouldn't bet on that part; one of the ways rich people stay rich is getting governments to pay for stuff for them.

[CRF]

Ya know what? If the Ishbia's do end up buying the team...I almost don't care if they're the owners from hell...I just want someone other than the Pohlad's. We need a change here. A different voice.

[Doctor Gast]

I don't expect that owners know everything about how to run a team. But I hope they know enough about baseball & are invested enough to know if those you hire are doing a good job or not, I believe Justin does. He makes a living by buying poor companies & revamping them into well-run ones. IMO at the same time it won't be just a business to them. Looking forward to them making the Twins into an exciting team again. Hoping for a smooth & quick transition. 

[Otaknam]

With no other current options this guy would be fine. He has the finances and the interest, and he’s no Red McCombs. All billionaire businessmen have alleged questionable business practices. As long as he has no ties with Russian oligarchs, like some corrupt US politicians, I would be happy if he was the owner. 

[Jeff K]

2 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

That risk is out there for any owner that's not a MN resident/native. But the Twins lease isn't short, neither Ishbia lives/works in a city that doesn't already have a team (and they're from Detroit), and MLB wants MSP as a market. Yes, Justin Ishbia has ties to Nashville, but it's not like he's been living/working there for the past 20 years. If he buys the Twins, by the time the lease is up he'll have spent more time in MSP than he did in Nashville for law school.

There's some risk to any new owner that they're going to be a yahoo, a fool, make promises they can't fulfill, etc. They're billionaires and the vast majority of them aren't exactly good people (IMHO). But in the MLB world of no salary cap and limited revenue sharing and no realistic means for community ownership...they're a pretty good fit. They're baseball fans, especially Justin. They're insanely wealthy and not afraid to use that wealth. They seem interested in sports franchises because they like sports and want to win, rather than just having them as assets to make themselves more wealthy in 7-10 years. And they certainly seem to be people that would take a short-term financial hit in order to compete for a title.

I ain't rooting for any billionaire, and I'm sure the Ishbia's have done some shady crap (or simply permitted it) in pursuit of having All The Wealth (let's not pretend the Pohlads' hands are clean; Carl made the family money in banking, an industry well-known for always playing fair, right?). But in terms of purely sports ownership...the Ishbias could be a great fit for the Twins.

100% agree.  If you are looking for the perfect owner(s); you will be perfectly disappointed.  And while I am hopeful there are some perfectly ethical billionaires out there, they don't become billionaires playing by the same rules.  

[tony&rodney]

The sale of the Twins could drag on for a bit. Cohen spent a ton of money to buy the Mets but it is pretty easy to see that there was an opportunity to significantly raise the valuation of a New York City based franchise. Cohen will see the value of the Mets increase noticeably in the next five years.

Minnesota is a much slower market, albeit one with some potential. We don't have any idea of where the asking price to buy the Twins has been set. The Pohlads may be high in their price and negotiations with any prospective buyers could take time. The final purchase price makes a big difference in this sale because the margins are likely to be quite a bit smaller versus a large market. 

The Pohlads made a decision to announce an intent to sell the Minnesota Twins franchise. Let us hope they fear a falling price (due to some currently unknown and unpredictable potentially poor economic situation or whatever) more than they seek a maximum number. A higher price will result in prolonged negotiations and a delay in the sale of the Twins. It is possible to get this done quickly if all sides are agreeable to the terms. That is a hope, no matter the buyer.

[mikelink45]

This gives us something different to talk about, we can thank them for that, but the deal is not done and it remains as speculative as all the trade ideas that have been posted.  I will enjoy the conversations and wait and see.  I remember the Twolves being sold recently - how is that working out?

[Fatbat]

41 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

More power to them. If they own the stadium, then they're also less likely to move; it's not like you can take the stadium with you. I'd be happy for them to be responsible for all stadium improvements and development around the area, and Hennepin County can always use the cash. But I wouldn't bet on that part; one of the ways rich people stay rich is getting governments to pay for stuff for them.

Diversifying risk adds to generational wealth. Owning two franchises in two different sports 1800 miles apart is a lot of diversification.  They may have enough ego and assets that they someday make a play for an NFL franchise as well. 

[gman]

If they buy the team and are successful, this should be a team that will challenge for titles consistently. I would expect them to be outspending the central division teams by a large margin. It may be too late this off season to pick up any major free agents. But then I also wouldn't expect them to trade any players just to save $10-20 dollars.

[sweetmusicviola16]

I'm a firm believer in ethics and integrity no matter whether rich or poor. So that is a concern. But also innocent until proven guilty.

[mnfireman]

As long as they don't approach Jerry Jones, Al Davis or George Steinbrenner level of hands-on all should be good....

[MinnesotaTwins26]

I'll just be glad if we can find someone willing to buy the Twins and keep them in Minnesota.

[sweetmusicviola16]

1 hour ago, TopGunn#22 said:

There is no downside to this potential ownership change.  NONE.  The Pohlad Family is worth $3.8 billion.  The Ishbia brothers have a combined net worth of $12-$14 billion.  As an ownership group, the potential positives of the Ishbia brothers far outweigh any of the Pohlad family.

The huge disparity of the scale of wealth aside, it's the willingness of the Ishbia brothers to use that wealth to better the ballclub and the baseball viewing public that sets them so far apart from the Pohlad family.  

Consider this:  It was the Pohlad family that nearly had the Twins contracted.  And this happened after the Twins had won 2 World Series Championships in a 5 year period.  After all the angst of failing in the playoffs throughout 2002-2010 and then the wandering in the desert years of 2011-2018, then the 2019-2020 resurgence and fall of 2021-2022, only to see the playoff curse broken in 2023 and then to see the shocking "right-sizing" of the payroll and eventual collapse of 2024, leading into the off season winter of discontent that a roster with talent but some obvious holes needs FURTHER "right-sizing" the Pohlad's are finally on their way out.

It was pointed out by Jud Zulgad in a Skor North episode that the whole idea of "right-sizing" began when Jim Pohlad handed the keys over to Joe Pohlad following the tremendous 2023 season.  It became obvious very soon after the season ended that Joe Pohlad and the rest of the family weren't interested in owning the Twins any longer.

Rather than "right-sizing" the business in the 2023 off season, the Pohlad's should have just put the team up for sale right then.  Instead, what followed was a detonation of any good will toward the Pohlad family by the fan base and the writing was plain to see on the right field wall of Target Field that the Pohlad family would never again have any trust or good will from this fanbase. 

In our lifetimes as Twins fans we've had the Griffith family and Pohlad family who became famous for their penurious ways.  Now, there is a glimmer of hope that a couple brothers, whose net worth dwarfs the Pohlad family, may be interested in buying the Twins.  I hope their interest is serious. 

The Pohlad's have not left themselves in a very strong position to sell the team.  They are coming off a season with an historic collapse on the field, destroying any positive energy the brothers could have inherited with the fan base, and the Pohlad's still have a team that in "their business model" is too heavy on payroll.

This to me means the Pohlad's should be motivated to sell.  And sell quickly.  Get their money and slink out of the public spotlight.  They should be consulting the Ishbia brothers about any major moves/trades/signings.  Trade Carlos Correa?!?!?  Better ask the brothers.  Make a trade for Yandy Diaz??  Better ask the brothers.  Go all in for Roki Sasaki???  Better ask the brothers !!!

And if I'm the brothers, I want input on any of these moves if I'm going to give the Pohlad's anything close to their hopeful/desired price.  Absent a sale, what are the Pohlad's budgeting for ticket sales this year?  Have the Pohlad's done ANYTHING to compel anyone to come and watch their team??  Absolutely Not.  As far as their FO and current manager?  I don't know if Falvey could do more with a different ownership group or payroll flexibility.  Would the Twins under Falvey with the Ishbia brothers be more aggressive in making moves during the off season as opposed to being purely reactionary?  In fact, I don't even think I could characterize Falvey and Co. as reactionary.  It's more like a "Wall Flower" strategy.  Hang by the wall in the shadows until the dance ends and then just go home having danced with nobody.  This FO more often than not simply dumpster dives.  That's not a strategy and it's terribly frustrating.  It's not a given anyone in the FO or Rocco would be around for the 2026 season if a sale was made.  

Anyone who has amassed the wealth that the Pohlad's or Ishbia brothers has, has probably stepped on a few toes.  That's business.  Always has been, always will be.  But for the billionaire owning the teams I cheer for...Twins, Vikings, T-Wolves, Wild, I want MY billionaire to care more about a winning team and interesting product than what the profit margin is.  Ford Motor Company, Target, etc... are NOT the Minnesota Twins.  Ford has never won a World Series, and they never will (theoretically).  

But I want the Twins to win the World Series,  The Vikings the Super Bowl.  The T-Wolves the NBA Championship and the Wild the Stanly Cup.  So I want those ownership groups to put winning and an exciting product FIRST.  Not Profit Margins.  This sale can't happen soon enough for me.  

I think this sums up the feelings of most. But in all fairness to the Falvey regime they are not pure dumpster divers like Ryan was after he took over for Bill Smith. I would hardly call Addison Reed, Nelson Cruz, Kenta Maeda, Josh Donaldson and Carlos Correa dumpster dives. The problem is that is where they stop. They make a good acquisition or two and then don't go for the pieces that will put them over the top into a different level. This is also remindful of the Twins teams of the 2,000's. They could have been very good, WS contenders, instead they settled for winning a division. This would appear to be an ownership problem. So I also welcome a change. The sooner the better. Not at all worrying about a team moving in 20 years.