Will the "Golden At-Bat" Be the Thing That Finally Destroys Baseball?

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Whitey333 said:

Dumb idea.  Manfred has already pretty much ruined baseball for most of older traditionalist.  It's almost unwatchable.  Baseball used to be fun, relaxing, and enjoyable.  Now it's become just a huge very boring video game.  Players "skills" have diminished greatly.  They have trouble throwing g to the wrong base, can't bunt, can't hit and run, can't adjust their at bat to advance runners.  The starting pitchers rarely go over 5 or 6 innings yet we are paying them more than ever.  This leads to higher ticket prices.  I've never been more discouraged about the state of major league baseball than I am now.  Rule changes like this will destroy what's left.

That's not Manfred. That's front offices. The recent rule changes he's implemented are actually trying to combat that. I agree the game is less entertaining with the 3 true outcomes, dying of the starting pitcher, etc. but that isn't Manfred, it's the front offices. And ticket prices don't go up because starting pitchers cost more. They go up because they can. That's simple economics. Prices go as high as the market dictates they can go to maximize owner profits. People stop paying the prices and owners will stop raising the prices.

[JCT66]

The other recent rule changes were done primarily as a way to offset coaching and strategy trends that had negatively impacted the game (i.e. limiting the shift, limiting the amount of pitcher substitutions, and trying to ensure speed, baserunning, and stealing remained relevant).  These changes were very successful because they were helped to return the game to its roots.  The one exception to that is the Ghost Runner in extra innings, but that was probably worthwhile in order to end the occasional marathon games that would occur.

This proposed change is just idiotic in so many ways.  Think of the impact it could have in player statistics, which is one of the great advantages that baseball has over other sports.  I wonder how many extra HR's or RBI's Aaron Judge would get in a season if he was given an extra plate appearance every game.

 

[arby58]

2 hours ago, umterp23 said:

So a scenario of what ifs was played out I think in a The Athletic article that said what if you are Bobby Witt Jr gets the golden bat to start the 9th inning from a poor 9th in the lineup hitter.  He either strikes out or gets a base hit.  Now lets say he gets a hit, a double.  They pitch run for him and guess what he is back at the plate as the leadoff hitter.  Gets 2 for the price of 1 plate appearances.  Or he strikeouts but still stays at the plate to take his normal turn.

Next thing you will get is team A has hit too many homers and the next one is an automatic out when they blast one.  Beer softball leagues here we come under this clowns leadership.

 

 

You can certainly take the 'what ifs' out of the equation within the rule. They did that with the DH - situations where the DH plays in the field and the pitcher then has to bat. I don't have a problem with the Witt situation described, but if that is the 'deal breaker' you could make it so that a player who is on base cannot be the Golden Bat. The 'hit too many homeruns' nonsense is the fallacy of absurdity.

[Vanimal46]

38 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

But to tie back to the overly-sensational headline, the same thing that kills the numbers with the youngers is the same thing that will destroy the game-namely the TV situation.  

The youngers don’t consume on the TVs and we see that money going away already.  They will just watch the golden batter on the reels or Toks like they consume highlights today.  No long form attention means no long term advertising money.  More sound bites isn’t the fix if they can’t monetize it.

I’m also not to sure the NBA and NFL are good comps for baseball.  It’s just different and slow and steady is probably the better way.  The NFL and NBA are riding bubbles while MLB has already burst.  Don’t chase, don’t pervert the game when there are so many things to try first. I’d rather see the uniform look like NASCAR than this. 

Agreed. Why risk alienating your existing fans chasing a demographic that you’re likely never to fully capture? Baseball is a boomerang sport. They get introduced to it as a kid, maybe they play baseball or softball as well. Then they go off to do other things because they’re teenagers/college aged and you’re not going to sit for 3 hours watching baseball multiple times a week. Then they come back at a later age when life has settled down a bit more. 

[arby58]

10 minutes ago, JCT66 said:

The other recent rule changes were done primarily as a way to offset coaching and strategy trends that had negatively impacted the game (i.e. limiting the shift, limiting the amount of pitcher substitutions, and trying to ensure speed, baserunning, and stealing remained relevant).  These changes were very successful because they were helped to return the game to its roots.  The one exception to that is the Ghost Runner in extra innings, but that was probably worthwhile in order to end the occasional marathon games that would occur.

This proposed change is just idiotic in so many ways.  Think of the impact it could have in player statistics, which is one of the great advantages that baseball has over other sports.  I wonder how many extra HR's or RBI's Aaron Judge would get in a season if he was given an extra plate appearance every game.

 

Again, this is one use per game, so the potential impact on statistics is pretty small. For that matter, you could make part of the rule that the Golden At Bat does not count for statistical purposes, if that is the deal breaker. 

Question: how exactly does the DH 'return the game to its roots?' Answer: it does not. As Heraclitus noted, 2,500 years ago, the only constant is change.

[killertwinfan]

While the thought of that change makes me want to puke, it would be a way to level the salary disparity across the league.   Technically depth would be a little less important if your best batsman took the biggest at bat in the game.  

[Teddy]

And here I thought the automatic runner on second in extra innings was the stupidest idea they'd come up with.

Guess I was wrong.

[Finlander]

Horrible idea. How many asterisks do we need added to career stats and record books?

Maybe what baseball needs is Billy Martin. He'd have his pitcher drill a "golden batter". Now that would be entertaining.

[farmerguychris]

I don't like it.  This is why you can pinch hit.  Don't fix something that isn't broken - why I'm watching less and less NFL is because they tinker too much with a good thing.

 

[Blyleven2011]

Baseball is getting to be a comical game of errors starting with the owners and manfredball   ...

Strategy has been taken away and replaced by sabermetrics ,  is another comical of errors ...

The twins have had no strategy in playing the game since Rocco has been manager  , except the homerun  and they are mostly solo's ...

The strategy should be to make contact and hit it where they ain't  , get on base and then hit the game changing homerun  ...

The way the game is played today I see less and less players that deserve to be in Cooperstown HOF ...

[Trov]

55 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

That's not Manfred. That's front offices. The recent rule changes he's implemented are actually trying to combat that. I agree the game is less entertaining with the 3 true outcomes, dying of the starting pitcher, etc. but that isn't Manfred, it's the front offices. And ticket prices don't go up because starting pitchers cost more. They go up because they can. That's simple economics. Prices go as high as the market dictates they can go to maximize owner profits. People stop paying the prices and owners will stop raising the prices.

Yes, the change in play is not from Manfred but from mainly front offices.  We used to care about batting average, now it is looked down on as a bad stat to evaluate a player.  Money Ball brought in the OBP as a number people cared about.  Then it evolved to OPS.  Players with high OPS were getting paid more.  So the players said well if teams do not care that I can hit a singles for high average but they would rather I get some more extra base hits, I need to change to get more extra base hits. 

As to the ticket price point, I have long said the players get paid what the fans dictate.  If fans stop watching baseball the prices will have to go down and players will have to get paid less.  Owners will not pay players more than what they are bringing in, for the most part. If fans stopped attending, watching on TV and stopped buying gear, the league would fold in 2 years because owners would stop giving the money. 

[jorgenswest]

In my old age my first reaction to any change is not a positive one. This won’t keep me from watching baseball though.

On the positive side this rule change will give opportunity for more in game engagement about how to utilize that one golden at bat. It will likely provide more exciting moments over a season. Elite defenders may get more opportunity as teams will know they can bat for them in a key spot during the game,

There is a downside though. Teams that can afford the elite game changing players are going to benefit more. The wealthy teams will have an Ohtani to use in that extra at bat. Over the course of the season that will be a great advantage. Records will be broken. Elite players may approach 800 players appearances in a season. I think it will increase the divide between the large and small market teams and that will not help.

Maybe a better solution to generate more engagement and exciting moments is to allow reentry. A player reentering would need to be in the same spot in the batting order. If Larnach hits for Vazquez in the 9th spot then they can use either player in that 9th spot. Vazquez can return and they can alternate but both can’t be in the game at the same time. I think it could generate debate about how to best utilize those spots. I don’t think it increases the divide between the large and small market teams. Teams that roster wisely and deploy their players wisely should gain an advantage. It isn’t going to impact the individual single season records. It would not add time to the game unless it was decided that pitchers could reenter. We have enough injuries to pitchers as it is. Let’s not have reentry for pitchers.

I prefer this solution but I still don’t like change. I will keep watching though.

 

[brycenation]

No way.....this is so absurd. The Savanah Bananas are show biz Harlem Globetrotter-esk baseball. As stated in earlier posts the man on second to start the 10th is hard enough pill to swallow. How this even made it to a conversation stage by the powers that be. Do keep this off our manicured fields - YES in this case I am that mid-60's - GET OFF MY LAWN GUY!

[Hubie29]

One disadvantage for the Twins would be that we don't have a anyone that would qualify as a golden bat. 

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, arby58 said:

Again, this is one use per game, so the potential impact on statistics is pretty small. For that matter, you could make part of the rule that the Golden At Bat does not count for statistical purposes, if that is the deal breaker. 

Question: how exactly does the DH 'return the game to its roots?' Answer: it does not. As Heraclitus noted, 2,500 years ago, the only constant is change.

One use per game is 162 extra PAs. That's not "pretty small". Judge hit a HR every 12 PAs last year. Another 162 PAs would lead to another 13 or 14 HRs. Now he's threatening the HR record (71 or 72 total). In 2022 he hit one every 11 PAs. If he had another 162 PAs he'd have hit another 15. That would've had him at 77 HRs on the year. Now he's set the HR record. (This all obviously ignores time missed to injuries, etc.)

"Does not count for statistical purposes?" Yeah, pretending things didn't actually happen has never really worked. If Aaron Judge hits 77 HRs in a season with the extra "Golden Bat" ABs people are going to debate the legitimacy of the record, but they aren't going to say he hit 62 HRs, they're going to say he hit 77 HRs. Because he hit 77 HRs. The back of his baseball card is going to say he hit 77 HRs. 

162 extra times stepping to the plate is a significant number of extra times stepping to the plate.

[PatPfund]

Glad at least one other "boomer" pointed out that games weren't traditionally 3 hours long (4 freakin' hours when you got to playoffs). I was all for shortening the games through a clock and rule enforcement. Don't care for the anti-shift rule, because it makes the game stupider (seriously, if you insist on pulling the ball into 6 defenders you deserve to be out).

The Golden At Bat strikes me as a stupid gimmick to insert artificial drama. I don't really worry about any of the objections in the OP since we are talking probably once-a-game. Most MLB players get pinch-hit for in a game at some point; many have others chosen to hit over them; egos don't shatter. Pitchers get good players out, and sometimes get beat by them. If one at-bat per game crumbles their well-being they are probably in the wrong profession. But it will have little impact on most games, so it adds little extra incentive to watch if you aren't already.

Plus I can already see Rocco sending some light-hitting lefty up to hit for Correa in the playoffs, because a righty is on the mound.

 

[Craig Arko]

It would be better if they only let the mascots hit in these cases. Think of the merchandising possibilities. 

[tony&rodney]

Always good to have conversation, but the fact we are even discussing something so absurd is testimony to the damage caused by Manfred in his reign of terror as he does the bidding of the owners.

Can you imagine the NBA having a designated free throw shooter or the NHL having a shootout to determine who wins ...... oh wait. Nevermind.

[DocBauer]

What a great idea!

And in the NFL, if you're behind by 8 points or less and the game is at or under the 2:00 minute mark, the losing team's QB stands at the 50 yard line with no pass rush allowed, and the best WR gets to go one on one with a DB to see if they can score on a bomb. You know, just to keep things interesting. 

In the NBA, no more overtime! Have a dunk contest to determine the winner. You could have a "dunk specialist" on your bench just for tie games.

While we're at it, let's forget extra innings for baseball. Just too boring. Imagine watching the highlights on ESPN of a HR contest to determine the winner!

It's just a ridiculous,  little league/softball league change that will never happened. Someone brought it up over a 3 martini lunch and Manfred thought it was worth mentioning publicly. 

It isn't. 

[mrcharlie]

Fools Gold.

[mrcharlie]

Just now, mrcharlie said:

Fools Gold.

And what is this...embiggening?

[Parfigliano]

2 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Baseball is getting to be a comical game of errors starting with the owners and manfredball   ...

Strategy has been taken away and replaced by sabermetrics ,  is another comical of errors ...

The twins have had no strategy in playing the game since Rocco has been manager  , except the homerun  and they are mostly solo's ...

The strategy should be to make contact and hit it where they ain't  , get on base and then hit the game changing homerun  ...

The way the game is played today I see less and less players that deserve to be in Cooperstown HOF ...

That's why they are busy busy lowering HOF standards

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, Trov said:

Yes, the change in play is not from Manfred but from mainly front offices.  We used to care about batting average, now it is looked down on as a bad stat to evaluate a player.  Money Ball brought in the OBP as a number people cared about.  Then it evolved to OPS.  Players with high OPS were getting paid more.  So the players said well if teams do not care that I can hit a singles for high average but they would rather I get some more extra base hits, I need to change to get more extra base hits. 

We used to care about batting average, then Branch Rickey figured out something better. He published it in 1954 in LIFE magazine.

Goodby to Some Old Baseball Ideas

Was Branch Rickey the Father of Sabermetrics? « The Captain's Blog

Quote

The first part of the formula, which represents On Base Percentage, isn’t particularly ground breaking. Although Rickey’s era was dominated by regard for batting average, the value of OBP was well understood at the time. After all, a 1933 column by John Lardner refers to the “ancient ivory adage: a walk is as good as a hit”, so appreciation for bases on balls has long been a part of the game (for the record, Rickey believed a walk was 75% as good as a hit during his era).

The second part of equation, however, is very interesting. It begins with the formula for isolated power (ISO), which is a modern sabermetric staple. Incredibly, not only was Rickey using the calculation in 1954, but he was calling it by the very same name. I wonder how many people who use the figure realize it was invented by a man born in 1881?

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

5 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Their numbers with the younger generations must be horrible. They were asleep at the wheel for far too long despite all kinds of people on the outside jumping up and down screaming that the sport was dying and they needed to do things to attract a younger audience to keep up with the NFL and not get passed by the NBA. Too late now. NBA flew by them and the NFL is long gone in this race. So now they're left with embarrassing ideas like this.

This feels like a focus group testing. They're throwing the idea out and seeing what the reaction is. Testing the edges. Seeing how far they can go with each segment of the population to see how much they can change. And how quickly they can change it. 

I think this is a horrendous idea. But I'm no longer the target market. And I shouldn't be. I'm not the younger generation anymore. I'm a die hard who will still watch. They need to get younger fans watching. They needed to start doing it 20 years ago. But they really need to start doing it now. And if this is what it takes then they should do it. I just hope it isn't what it takes. 

As usual, I find myself in lock-step with chpettit. Posted this earlier:

 

[nicksaviking]

This isn't happening. MLB is just taking a page out of Jerry Jones' playbook. Nobody is talking about us right now so let's say something crazy to get us back on the front page. The more bombastic the better.

[thelanges5]

Dumb. They could use this for the All-Star game but not regular season or playoffs. Might get some people to watch that game a little more closely  

 

[umterp23]

3 hours ago, JCT66 said:

The other recent rule changes were done primarily as a way to offset coaching and strategy trends that had negatively impacted the game (i.e. limiting the shift, limiting the amount of pitcher substitutions, and trying to ensure speed, baserunning, and stealing remained relevant).  These changes were very successful because they were helped to return the game to its roots.  The one exception to that is the Ghost Runner in extra innings, but that was probably worthwhile in order to end the occasional marathon games that would occur.

 

Easy change that could have been made was to end the game in a tie after a normal 10th inning of baseball.  Ties aren't a great thing or a bad thing.  Football games can still end in a tie at the NFL level, used to end in a tie at the college level.  Hockey can end in a tie.  Next thing we know the guy will be put on 3rd base to start the inning vs 2nd base and you get one shot to bring him home.  Batter scores on fly out with 1st batter up, you win.  Batter Strikes out or force out and home team gets on shot to win it. Neither score in 10th then be done with the game. I don't like extra innings format, so just end the game in a tie and move on.  

Players don't like extra inning games, too hard on their bodies over 162 game season. Guess what, play less games in regular season and don't play 25+ games in spring training.  Argument will be made that players need time to ramp up in spring training so play the whole month of March to do that.  Come to camp in shape and ready to go to start the season in Mid-April by starting spring training Mid-March.  Later start to season gives northern cities who play outside better chance of warmer weather.  End season Mid-September before crappy weather happens more often in northern climates.

Worn out bodies through the year, change roster size from 26 in spring and make it 35 for first 30 days of season and last 35 days if we are worried about guys getting hurt when not ready to play more than 4 innings at a time or fatigued at end of the year.  

Baseball Pastime doesn't exist the way I grew up with and I never complained about how long a game took.  Baseball was baseball. Instant gratification world is upon us and will only get worse.

[BD57]

It's fine for the Bananas because they're playing a different game.

I suspect it would often be used to get a team's best hitter up twice in the same inning against the same pitcher (more pitches seen, and all that).   So . . what do you do when the "Golden Batter" strokes a single or double & is still on base when his regular spot in the lineup comes up?   Do you get a 'ghost runner' (someone on the bench) who takes his spot on the basepaths so he can bat again?  Do you send the guy whose at bat was swiped out to run the bases for the "Golden Batter"  who gets a hit? 

It's a gimmick.   

If you think there's not enough offensive action, do something which addresses that . . . make the ball bigger & easier to hit, back the pitchers up a few feet (yes, I know changes of this type could have drastic impact on pitcher health).   Don't make the ball more lively - "slow pitch softball" is not what you're trying to sell.,  

So much about Manfred is a disappointment.   His openness to gimmicks is high on the list. 

[Teflon]

One problem in baseball is you have to wait sooooo long to see prospects. It's hard to be excited about drafting a Walker Jenkins then having him disappear into obscurity for three or more years.  Players coming into the NFL and NBA are already well-known from college and instantly recognized when they show up professionally. The closest thing for the MLB is signing international stars but it's hard for the average fan to feel the same connection to a player who needs an interpreter for the post-game interview. Awkward.

Question - Golf has got to be the absolute most boring sport on TV. Is it suffering through the same decline in popularity as baseball? If not, why?

 

 

[Parfigliano]

32 minutes ago, thelanges5 said:

Dumb. They could use this for the All-Star game but not regular season or playoffs. Might get some people to watch that game a little more closely  

 

Only if the ASG winner determines WS home field advantage