Twins Fans: Don't Hold Derek Shelton's Tenure with the Pirates Against Him

[jharaldson]

Shelton went 12-36 (.316 Win%) this year and then his replacement went 59-65 (.476 Win%) with the same team.  I would hope the first question he is asked at the press conference is why did the Pirates perform so much better when you weren’t there?

[Woof Bronzer]

10 minutes ago, old nurse said:

Tom Kelly had a 6 year stretch with a ..424 winning percentage. Does that make him a bad manager, or didn’t have talent to work with?  

 Tom Kelly won 2 World Series.  How many has Shelton won? Do you think, when evaluating a manager, that World Series victories are an important consideration?  I agree though, even cherry picking Tom Kelly's worst 6 year stretch, where the Twins were less talented than Shelton's Pirates, is not as bad as Shelton's career numbers.  Wow - Shelton's record is worse than I even realized!  Thanks for sharing.  

10 minutes ago, old nurse said:

Ron Gardenhire had a stretch of averaging losing 96 games a year. Does that make him a poor manager? 

Sure doesn't make him a good one!  

[old nurse]

10 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Torii Hunter didn't even want to begin the formal interview process with the Twins after initial discussion with Falvey.

The Athletic and SKOR North separately reported the opposite was true 

[old nurse]

2 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

 Tom Kelly won 2 World Series.  How many has Shelton won? Do you think, when evaluating a manager, that World Series victories are an important consideration?  I agree though, even cherry picking Tom Kelly's worst 6 year stretch, where the Twins were less talented than Shelton's Pirates, is not as bad as Shelton's career numbers.  Wow - Shelton's record is worse than I even realized!  Thanks for sharing.  

Sure doesn't make him a good one!  

Very good, you came so close to figuring it out but failed so miserably.  The manager is as only as good as the talent they have to work with.  Joe Maddon was considered a genius with Tampa and the Cubs. With Ohtani and Trout, the Angles couldn’t break .500 with him as manager.  

[LewFordLives]

I generally agree with the article. At the end of the day, the manager doesn't hit, and he doesn't pitch.

What troubles me is the complaints from the Pittsburgh fans are poor baserunning, poor situational awareness by the players and the manager, shoddy defense, and no accountability. Does any of this sound familiar?  

I'll give Shelton a chance, but sure hope this isn't Rocco 2.0.

[jmlease1]

39 minutes ago, old nurse said:

The Athletic and SKOR North separately reported the opposite was true 

never let the truth get in the way of an opportunity to crap all over Falvey. :P

[Peter]

Shelton will be great!!! Knows team been with twins created bomba squad!!! Great hire!!! Everyone is sleeping on twins-big mistake!!! All of you must support our twins now or forever not badmouthing them!!! Find another team 

[rdehring]

1 hour ago, In My La Z boy said:

Thanks! I enjoyed this comment. I am an optimist. It helps my days go better. 

Time for my smiley face disclaimer, La Z boy.  I use it when I get a good smile from a comment, not as something negative.  Do have a question, do they still make La Z boys?

[Jeff K]

4 minutes ago, Peter said:

Shelton will be great!!! Knows team been with twins created bomba squad!!! Great hire!!! Everyone is sleeping on twins-big mistake!!! All of you must support our twins now or forever not badmouthing them!!! Find another team 

I don't care for the hire, but hope I am wrong.  I don't like how Falvey has run the organization and I think the Pohlads are terrible owners who are at the root of the Twins problems.  That said, I will continue to pull for the Twins even though I've moved out of the area.  I don't know if this is badmouthing, or what, but I don't think there is a lot of value in just being a pollyanna.

[MesaTwinsFan]

Mr. Shelton is what Falvey could àfford. The Polhads make Calvin Griffith look like Georĝe Steinbrenner. Shelton is a Ricco clone who does every move by what the algorythm says and is terrible with the handliñg of the bullpen. We will have to wait another 10 years ùntil the Pohlads sell or at least realize the fans are tired my their Marquette bank technics of no one else matters but our pocket book. I'll still pay casual attention but my days of being a diehard are over. I grew up in the shadows of the old Met and worked as a vendor there for 10 years watching more than selling. Hardly ever sold a soda or beer while myTwins were batting.

[PDX Twin]

He's got one big thing going for him: low expectations. He expects to be treated like s*** by the front office and the fans expect the team to be s***. He'll get credit, whether deserved or not, for any modest success.

[mike8791]

Quote

 

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

I'd say the Pirates had slightly more success after Shelton was fired, it's not like Don Kelly turned them around and taught them how to hit all of a sudden. They still had plenty of 8-game losing streaks and still weren't even a .500 team under Kelly. Did Shelton "deserve" to keep his job? Deserve's got nothin' to do with it. (tm Clint Eastwood) Did Kelly's tenure so far significant change anything for the Pirates? Doesn't really look like it. If they add some hitting and don't trade Skenes, they'll be better in 2026. If they deal Skenes and/or don't improve the offense, they'll be 5th in the NL Central again. (likely regardless, unless you think StL is on a bigger downswing)

I've never been all that impressed with the performative nonsense of managers screaming and yelling or the idea that you need the manager to be the dugout hype man in order to inspire players to do better. It probably makes some fans feel better when things are going badly and you're desperate for someone to do something, anything...but when was the last time you felt more inspired at work when your boss chewed your ass out?

I'll be curious to see what Shelton does to try and improve the defense and baserunning with the roster, how he manages a bullpen, and whether or not he'll stick to the Rocco-era trick of pulling a guy in the middle innings to try and get the big inning using the platoon advantage then, and risk it going the other way late. (I think that was seriously overused and worked against the team more than it ever helped, by YMMV) I'll be very interested if anyone can get any real intel on how Shelton's staff will be put together and whether he'll be forced to keep anyone he doesn't want, or denied bringing in someone he doesn't. (I'm sure some people will be certain that he's going to be "forced" to keep anyone that carries over form Rocco's staff, but it's not necessarily true and it could very much be completely false. But I think it's going to be very difficult to find out for sure; Twins don't leak on this stuff often)

 

[ashbury]

I glanced through the list of 1st round and 2nd round picks by the Pirates.  Not a very illustrious bunch, apart from the unicorn Skenes.  The catcher also drafted 1-1, Henry Davis, has yet to pan out - as with another 1-1 pick of our local acquaintance, a succession of injuries may have sapped his talent.  A guy you'd maybe never heard of (I hadn't), Carmen Mlodzinski, might be ready to provide significant value going forward at age 27.  That's about it in the past decade-plus (and granting as always that maybe very recent picks will have altered the trend) - Ke'Bryan Hayes almost came through but wound up fizzling.  I suppose you could reach back to Gerrit Cole as a draft success, but he was traded in 2018 and none of the talent they received in return was much of a factor one way or the other by the time Shelton appeared on the scene.

Poor choices on draft day, or poor development in the minors, or poor coaching at the major league level with the manager to blame?

"Yes," I suppose. 😄

[SD happy]

Like quite a few, I was also uninspired by the hiring of Shelton. But, here’s the deal. The decision has been made and he’s now the manger of my favorite team. I wish him the very best! I support him 100%. And, I really hope that by next July we all will be saying what a good thing the manager change was.

[saviking]

having been our bench coach recently he not inly knows our players he knows our coaches. I bet this hire means mos5bof the organization allnthe way down to single A will stay intact. 

 

Plug and play ..

[farmerguychris]

As much of a S**T show the Twins ownership is - the Pirates is even worse.  

I don't have high expectations for Shelton as our new leader, but I also expect his winning percentage to be higher than it was with Pittsburgh simply because we have at least a few pieces in place (for now).

[Parfigliano]

5 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

From my viewpoint... At the moment... Things seem very similar between Minnesota and Pittsburgh. 

Both teams have the makings of a young talented rotation. Both teams have a lot of work to do in the bullpen.

Both teams have been struggling to develop hitting talent.

Both teams committed a significant number of AB's to aging veterans (Cutch, Pham and IKF) with expiring contracts instead of youth.  

I think Shelton is looking at the Twins players that he has to work with and feeling like he hasn't left Pittsburgh. 

 

 

 

Hopefully he learned from the Pittsburgh situation because he is stepping into the same situation with TC.

[sweetmusicviola16]

The hiring of Shelton is what it is. No article telling us that his tenure in Pittsburgh was acceptable will change the mood of Twins Territory. Nothing that transpired in October, Baldelli fired, Shelton hired, Falvey remains, changes the mood. Target Field attendance being a percentage of what it once was is witness to the mood of fans. It is what it is.

[Parfigliano]

4 hours ago, Dawgzilla said:

Derek seems like a nice guy, heck, there are a lot of "nice guys" on the Twins, but will they win you games.  Falvey and Twins ownership playing this "small/mid market" spending makes me say "no thanks" to going to any games, especially with all the costs of going involved!  Yes, atmosphere is great, but Minnesota has a lot of other things you can do in summer, which cost much less and/or are FREE!  No thanks!!!!!

Wife from TC and all her family still there so I'm sure I will be up some time next summer.  I just ask she schedule trip when TC is home (always does) so I'm positive we will be at 3-4 games.

[Parfigliano]

4 hours ago, sstolen said:

I like this post.  Not overly anything but realistic. So so easy for knucklehead talk radio types to be critical, cynical and unimformed. (Because we really dont know)

 I'm 2 of those 3 things.

[Parfigliano]

2 hours ago, MesaTwinsFan said:

Mr. Shelton is what Falvey could àfford. The Polhads make Calvin Griffith look like Georĝe Steinbrenner. Shelton is a Ricco clone who does every move by what the algorythm says and is terrible with the handliñg of the bullpen. We will have to wait another 10 years ùntil the Pohlads sell or at least realize the fans are tired my their Marquette bank technics of no one else matters but our pocket book. I'll still pay casual attention but my days of being a diehard are over. I grew up in the shadows of the old Met and worked as a vendor there for 10 years watching more than selling. Hardly ever sold a soda or beer while myTwins were batting.

So the root of the money problems is sorta traceable to you not selling stuff.

[USAFChief]

3 hours ago, old nurse said:

.  The manager is as only as good as the talent they have to work with

False, in every line of work.

Managers get more, or less, from their teams in a factory, in a bank, or on a MLB team, based on their abilities as, wait for it, managers.

The idea that managers--leaders--have no impact on group performance is laughably ignorant. 

No baseball manager is winning a pennant with 60 win talent. true. However, the idea that 60 win talent can only win 60 games isnt true. Same for 80 win talent, or 100. Management matters.

What a manager tolerates, emphasises, teaches, considers important, makes a difference. How (s)he goes about enacting thise things makes a difference. 

Witness the Twins Dismal ability to play the actual game of baseball under Baldelli. And the lack of caring about any of the things that go into playing well.

Some of those same qualities marked Shelton's time in Pittsburgh.  Let's hope he's changed his focus. 

[Doctor Gast]

Shelton was far from my 1st choice, but I had picked him over Baldelli in '19. I'm not a Baldelli hater, but IMO, Shelton was more experienced & Baldelli could have learned more under Shelton before becoming manager. Baldelli was too analytical & not enough heart. IMO, Shelton was a big reason why the Twins won 100-plus games in '19 & Baldelli said as much, that he leaned heavily on him. IMO, Shelton is different from Baldelli. Maybe Shelton will be Falvey's yes man, too, but they are different.

When Shelton arrived in PIT, their pitching development was absolutely abhorrent. Shelton saw the need & upgraded it into a MLB pitching staff, even before Stenes arrived. No one can spin straw into gold, but the right coaches can maximize the potential of each player. Most of our coaches don't come close in doing that & that needs to be changed. My hope is that Shelton is given free rein to do that. 

[Doctor Gast]

2 hours ago, saviking said:

having been our bench coach recently he not inly knows our players he knows our coaches. I bet this hire means mos5bof the organization allnthe way down to single A will stay intact. 

 

Plug and play ..

He only knows Buxton as players, I believe. Watkins & Maki as BP coach are the only coaches. All the good coaches were allowed to walk & bad ones were hired. Hopefully, Watkins is gone. So it'll be a whole new group. Unfortunately, Falvey is still here but.....

[Nick Nelson]

6 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

His job is not to “spin straw into gold”.  His job is take some subset of projectable, successful minor leaguers and turn them into above average major leaguers.  Rocco couldn’t do it with one out of the many position players who were handed off to him and his staff. Has Shelton?

Nick, if you want to make the case for Shelton, why don’t you do a deep dive on what he accomplished developing his position players instead of banking on him barely beating incredibly low Vegas win projections. This is the type of analysis/information many TDers would find helpful if your goal is to try to get us to rally around this hire.

I'm not making a case for Shelton or trying to rally anyone around the hire. I'm not really a fan personally. I'm just pointing out that those "incredibly low Vegas win projections" are evidence of how little he had to work with in Pittsburgh. I also don't really agree that a major-league manager's job is to develop players, although I agree it would've been nice to see a few more hitters break through under his watch.

[DannySD]

Winning 76 games/year with the 2023-24 Pirates is actually pretty good, that's more than I thought they won in a tough division. Not a perfect comparison, but how many games would the Rockies or White Sox have won with Skenes?

[Markdumont25]

It's an uninspiring hire. I don't think any reasonable person could have expected Shelton to win in Pittsburgh but he's still coming from a losing culture. Why couldn't we have found someone that came from a winning culture... Someone who came in with the mindset that they weren't going to accept mediocrity? Shelton, although by all reports a great baseball man, literally had the job of accepting mediocrity with the Pirates, and I'm sure that was part of Falvey's reasoning... Doesn't want a coach that's going to push back or rock the boat too hard when things don't go well (and it seems inevitable that they won't).

The only silver lining is I don't really care because I'm now conditioned to expect so little from Twins leadership.

[KirbyDome89]

Concur, the biggest issue with the Shelton hiring is that it keeps the status quo. Another Falvey disciple does nothing to shake up the flawed organizational philosophy the current regime is insistent on shoving down the throats of fans. 

 

[KirbyDome89]

3 hours ago, ashbury said:

I glanced through the list of 1st round and 2nd round picks by the Pirates.  Not a very illustrious bunch, apart from the unicorn Skenes.  The catcher also drafted 1-1, Henry Davis, has yet to pan out - as with another 1-1 pick of our local acquaintance, a succession of injuries may have sapped his talent.  A guy you'd maybe never heard of (I hadn't), Carmen Mlodzinski, might be ready to provide significant value going forward at age 27.  That's about it in the past decade-plus (and granting as always that maybe very recent picks will have altered the trend) - Ke'Bryan Hayes almost came through but wound up fizzling.  I suppose you could reach back to Gerrit Cole as a draft success, but he was traded in 2018 and none of the talent they received in return was much of a factor one way or the other by the time Shelton appeared on the scene.

Poor choices on draft day, or poor development in the minors, or poor coaching at the major league level with the manager to blame?

"Yes," I suppose. 😄

Sounds eerily familiar. 

Lewis, drafted in 2017, is going to begin the 2026 season with barely over 4 career bWAR. We're talking about Larnach as a non-tender/trade candidate. Cavaco, Sabato, and Petty are gone or washed. Brooks Lee is one more middling (at best) offensive season away from a bench role being his ceiling. We hope Wallner can stick at DH? Even Keaschall, one of the lone bright spots last season, was quietly unimpressive with a 6 something OPS and poor 2B defense for nearly half of his short season. 

They can hang their hat on Jeffers and that's pretty much it right now for position players. The pitching side, despite the vaunted "pipeline," isn't much better. Brutal. 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

I think it's fair to not hold it against him.

I guess I think it's also fair to not feel real inspired by it either.