TheLeviathan

Vikings cut Gladney. What a colossal misfire that pick was. And for what he did I hope he gets every ounce of that ten year maximum.

I agree, it's both.

It's a W in the sense that they got much more value than was expected. And it was a W relative to other deals for other similar players who moved at the deadline. It isn't mutually exclusive that the team also will suffer immediately from losing Berrios and that the Twins did very well given the circumstances. 0% chance is not entirely on the Twins either. That's the marching orders Barreiro is preaching in the media market and he's mostly grasping for straws. (Reusse too. On the basis of haggling in arbitration....which happens ALL THE TIME. It's literally what the process is: quibbling over thousands) Jose Berrios wants to experience FA. He can't do that by signing an extension. I'm sure if the Twins threw some absurd amount of money at him he might change his mind, but the money it'd take to do that is not what I think any Twins fan would agree to pay. (Say....5 years, 150M) So, no, that's not on them. That's how the system is built. Good for Jose that he gets to set his terms and his valuation and let suitors come to him. He has earned that privilege and there is nothing the Twins can do about that if he has his mind set to do so. Given that's the case, you have to weigh the prospects of what 2022 looks like because keeping him guarantees you a vastly diminished return in a trade. The 2022 staff is still a bad pitching staff with him and there are less tradeable assets and less money to improve. Now they have more options because they chose to maximize his trade value. I don't think 2022 is a contention year, I think 2023 is more likely because of the state of their young talent and what 2020 did to delay that pipeline. Is that a certainty? No. But no one gets to deal in certainties, only probabilities. All the probabilities point to this series of decisions being the right ones. We seem to be trying to paint people as "lusting for prospects" when all that's really happening is a sober take on where we're at. No one wants to be at this point, especially not with the expectations we set out with. But this isn't a fantasy land where you can just will the team to success on the basis of your undying love of seeing them play right now. Good teams, that retool quickly, don't double down on mistakes and hang on too long out of denial.

Me either, I just don't like what I read here. @Major League Ready Now, if the return stunk even with money, fine, but if they turned down a good move over a few million bucks I'd be a little irritated.

B+. They did a fantastic job in the Happ, Berrios, and Cruz deals. They got an interesting guy for Robles too. Where I ding them just a bit is in not getting rid of Simmons and for potentially falling short on other deals by their unwillingness to include money to get deals done. It sounds like that was a consistent issue with Donaldson trades. Maybe it was right not to deal JD, but not because of an unwillingness to move cash.

20 and at AA....that part can't be said enough.

I have heard multiple people lament hos loss. I have done so no less than three times. It has been acknowledged. We just added two top 100 prospects who immediately slid into the top 3 in our organization. Top 100 prospects hold a crap ton of value in trades. I don't know what the future holds in terms of how they will help the club....but I also haven't declared the next year, or two years, or decade a waste because we traded one pitcher. Yeah...maybe 2022 sucks. But it looked like it was bound to be a longshot with or without Berrios. What I do know is waiting dramatically reduces his value in trade for a player we have zero chance to retain long term. Deliberately tanking that value to buy in to 2022 seems like the kind idea you don't need hindsight to warn against.

He has said everything but that. He has made it crystal clear he simply isn't interested in an extension. That is a factual, vital part of evaluating the situation. I love Jose. I'm sad our situation forced these choices. But I can't remove the context and then judge the move fairly. Not once in this thread has it felt like you fairly weighed the context/realities of the situation. It's ok to be pissed or worn down or sad....but it's leading to completely unfair arguments born of fantasy rather than reality.

I'm not confident they can add much talent to the roster hanging on to a guy who has every intention of not being here in 2023. They could take these two prospects and use them to add arms. Martin and somebody for Zac Gallen. Woods Richardson and another piece for John Means. Bam. Better 2022 Rotation. And 2023. And 2024. These are the kinds of things you can do when you have assets to move.

I think ashbury and mike answered this well, but I don't understand why it was a question at all. So much of the discord in here feels like people are tailoring the context of this trade in strange ways that omit key reasons why it makes so much sense to pull this trigger. Take just a few: 1. Berrios has made it abundantly clear he isn't interested in an extension. Short of "Pay me 5 years and 200M or I'm going to let the Yanks wine and dine me"....there isn't much mystery about his intentions. That means in one season and two months you have as much control over who he pitches for as every other MLB team. 2. Trading him at the next deadline will dramatically reduce the return. I can't emphasize dramatically hard enough. 3. If your plan is to outbid the Yankees....you get your shot in 2022 I guess. Plus the guys we just got! 4. Jose Berrios and a bunch of question marks is not a contending caliber staff. 2022 doesn't have enough ready starting pitchers to supplement Jose. Now, let me add a few personal contextual bits I think are worth noting: 1. The Twins just got more for Jose Berrios than the Nats got for Scherzer AND Trae Turner with a similar level of control. 2 I'd trade Berrios for Turner 102 times out of 100 straight up. 3. The Twins could, conceivably, turn around this offseason and make two separate deals with these guys as lead parts of the package and come back with two arms as good (or nearly as good) as Jose. This is what could happen because now the Twins have more assets to make the 2022 team better than one guy who has made it his outward goal to bet on himself.

Signing him to a one year deal with a guarantee he walks in a year? Sure, if we are a piece from a World Series I say absolutely it's a HR. But that isn't our situation.

That depends on how we go forward, same as it did before we made the trade.

I want to point out the irony here as well: The Twins acquired Jose Berrios via a comp pick for letting a major league player walk from their team. They made a business decision about a player who was still productive and a fan favorite that ultimately was best for the club long term. And now here we are with Berrios. It's not his fault, but when things don't come together it doesn't help to double down on a failed attempt.

Yet....the suck has happened. And will continue to happen. If you're somehow squeezing joy out of this god awful season I have confidence you'll continue to find it if you're so determined. Doing nothing was going to continue to result in one good pitcher and a bad baseball team. You seem to grasp this notion, what I cant' grasp is why you would like it to endure.

I seriously don't understand this one...but I'll take it!

Failed to get value here, not a good look. Maybe we'll see an extension, that would save some face here.

This is really well said. Yeah, it sucks to lose Jose. He's probably my favorite Twin, but the Twins pitching wasn't winning anything with him and he wasn't staying. You can lament the state of things without letting it color your ability to see the path forward. The path forward for this team was to move on, acquire assets, and rework the roster. We might be able to flip Marten for a pitcher. Maybe Woods-Richardson will step right in. Same with some of the other arms we added. We weren't going to progress being stagnant. Take big swings. Some of you would've been on a Padres board 5 years ago singing the ballads of James Shields and the worthlessness of prospects like Tatis. (Best case scenario of course, but you can't hit roster homeruns without taking swings) It's ok to feel crappy about the state of things, but some sense of reality would be nice.

Winning will put butts in the seat. Staying with a bad team and changing nothing will not change that.

That's different than the last four months....how? I guess we can just stay with a bad team and just hope that we magically become not bad? I don't understand this mentality. The disappointment is already a reality, no reason to double down out of obstinance.

Martin is exactly the guy I was eye-balling if the Jays were the team that landed him. I preferred San Diego's SS, but I'll take this return!

Hopefully, by the all-star game next year, younger and much more promising with guys like Duran, Balazovic, Ryan, etc. If not the conversations get a lot more difficult across the organization.

I dig that the Blue Jays are still in this. They have some nice pitching and infield options that fit well with this team. Not a pure shortstop, but some dudes that are appealing. But a deal to San Diego with Abrams as the centerpiece is my favorite option.

I'd be curious how you feel about Lovecraft after you finish it. We haven't started it, but I've been wary to because I've heard it fell off the cliff midway through the season.

I don't think it's wise to trade an OL with experience for a 7th rounder.

With FA netting us Goligoski, Kulikov, and other filler parts it seems pretty obvious to me that Guerin wants to change the locker room culture and take a run at a cup in about 3 years. 2024 the dead cap is gone in time to start extending the young players they are banking on. This team is clearing the decks so that Rossi, Khusnutdinov, Boldy, Khovanov, O'Rourke, Addison, and Wallstedt are the future of the team and have a chance to get big minutes. I expect a fun team, but probably not a Cup contender for a few years.