Is There a Light at the End of the Tunnel for Twins Fans?

[Nick Nelson]

The experience of following and rooting for this team has become downright miserable. There's no other way to put it. Is the malaise ever going to end?

Image courtesy of Matt Blewett-Imagn Images

Twins Daily is, above all else, a fan site. It was founded by fans, it is fueled by fans. We do not try to spin toward objectivity or neutrality: we filter everything through the lens of the fan experience. And so, while mainstream outlets are doing an excellent job covering and analyzing the events taking place on the field, I feel it is our obligation to say plainly: this sucks. Not just the quality of baseball we've been witnessing, but the shameful all-around grind that customers have been put through for the mere offense of trying to like and support this ballclub.

Some are angry. (The comment section at Twins Daily of late is evidence enough.) Some have grown ambivalent. But no one can be particularly happy about what we've been seeing over the past 18 months, especially backdropped against the elation of a playoff series win in 2023. The Twins snapped a 20-year curse with a record payroll coming off the historic Carlos Correa signing. It felt like embattled fans, who'd endured a lot of uncompetitive baseball and irrelevance in the first dozen years at Target Field, were finally getting the payoff they deserved. 

Since then, fans have been subjected to:

• A substantial payroll slash for the 2024 season, blunting the momentum that had been built through all the success of their breakthrough in 2023. This came complete with tone-deaf remarks from Joe Pohlad about right-sizing and financial obligations.
• Immense challenges trying to watch the team on TV. The team first backtracked on a promise to part ways with Diamond Sports and end blackouts last year, which led to broadcasts going dark on Comcast for a substantial portion of the season. The delayed rollout of the Twins TV streaming product this year was anything but smooth or transparent.
• Almost inconceivably bad baseball. While the Twins enjoyed a several-month stretch of high-caliber play last season (most of which Comcast subscribers were unable to watch), it gave way to a historic collapse that featured some of the most uninspired, unwatchable play you will ever see ...
• ... That is, until the events of this season started unfolding. Picking up right where they left off, the Twins came out of the gate with no fight, stumbling to a 7-15 start that has included blowouts, blown leads and plenty of plain old badly played ballgames.
• Oh, and the one faint ember of an underlying storyline that was keeping full-on doomerism at bay — the prospect of a franchise sale that would usher in fresh leadership at the very top — has also fizzled out. Overwhelming optimism gave way to the opposite when Justin Ishbia backed out of his pursuit, leaving the debt-saddled Pohlads with a lukewarm market and egregious demands. For now, we're stuck with them.

It all adds up to pure torment. Aside from the enjoyment of watching baseball and the vibe of a nice day at the ballpark, there has been scarcely anything from which to draw joy as a fan of this team, for far too long now. In conversations I've had, even some of the true romantics are starting to peel off and disengage already. The 23-year low in attendance at Target Field last Monday spoke volumes about where the fanbase is at. Is an end in sight?

They say the night is darkest before the dawn but right now it's hard to find a flicker of light on the horizon. There have been no indications of meaningful progress on the franchise sale since Ishbia dropped out two months ago. On the field, the team has shown zero ability to gain control and escape their ongoing tailspin. Rocco Baldelli may be on the verge of getting fired, which would at least be some type of notable shakeup, but it would bring fans like me no pleasure. I like Rocco. If anything, his departure as the victim of this organizational rot would only make the situation more depressing.

There are some good prospects on the way up. But fans have heard that story before. If things continue as they are, we're in for more pain in the months ahead, with the front office all but certain to swing some seller-driven trades ahead of the deadline, both to unload payroll and to reshape a nonfunctional talent core. The outlook at this moment feels bleak.

And yet... it's baseball.

If there's any small comfort to cling to in such a dreary landscape, it's that this game — maddening and magical as it is — has a way of flipping the script when you least expect it. We've seen it before. Streaks turn, players catch fire, clubhouse vibes shift, and suddenly the team you’d written off is the one you can’t stop watching. I don’t say that to excuse the missteps or sugarcoat the current mess — fans deserve better, and their frustration is more than justified. But I do say it as someone who's seen the tides turn, even in the darkest moments.

Target Field may be echoing with empty seats this summer, a reflection not of apathy but of a fanbase that's been pushed too far. And yet, those of us still watching — still caring — do so because we know how good it can feel when it finally turns around. When it does, it won't be because we forgot how painful this all was. It'll be because we held on anyway.

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[Fire Dan Gladden]

Any potential light will only show up once ownership sells the team. The lack of sale is basically holding up any potential change, be it coach, FO, player signing or major trade. All other screaming at the wind aside, nothing of consequence will happen until that deal is done.

The Pohlad's do not care about the team in any way unless it affects their checkbook. Wins are a byproduct to them.

[Vanimal46]

Winning games helps. But really, I think the past 18 months have pushed a lot of fans to their breaking point. People are speaking with their wallets, and that’s all we can do until the Pohlads sell the team. Yesterday was an ideal spring evening to be outside and catch a game. I’d be willing to bet there were more butts in seats at the Saints game than the Twins. 

[USAFChief]

I'm a long (looooooooong) time fan, and I can honestly say I have never been more down on this franchise.

Part of it is the changes to baseball itself. I don't enjoy the game as much these days. Fewer balls in play,, zero real starting pitchers, the emphasis on analytics over playing baseball, and on and on. The complete and seeming intentional competitive imbalance.

But mostly, I feel like the Twins have abandoned me. Like every single decision is meant only to squeeze maximum revenue out of me, rather than to try to win.

I haven't abandoned the Twins yet. But I feel pretty close. And I never would have said that, even through some pretty lean times in terms of wins.

I hope a sale happens, happens soon, and new ownership puts me higher in their "things I give a **** about" hierarchy. 

And on a larger scale, Major League Baseball itself needs a reset. Find some ways to start playing baseball again, because whatever this is, it aint what i call baseball

. And for heaven's sake, get a reasonable salary cap system in place immediately. 

[mikelink45]

This is about wholesale change - not tweaks - as Fire Dan Gladden says, we need this team to be sold.  Pohlads are not going to regain any favorable relationships with Twins - that slide began with the old retraction effort to eliminate the team years ago.  They were not committed to the team or fans then and they have not improved over the years.

A new owner will have that honeymoon period where they can tell us that things will change and we will want to believe them.  

Prospects are always promising until they prove us otherwise.  Maybe it will be different this time - we keep telling ourselves.  But are we sure that the leadership team can bring them up and help with the transition to MLB?  Past performance does not seem to indicate it.  But for the fans sake we need Emma, Walker, Matthews, Festa, Morris, and Keaschall to be the real thing.  We keep seeing other teams bringing up really young players and have them prosper.  We need that.

The hitting and pitching coaches are easy targets and we keep changing them with the same results so maybe it is time to look at the other management members and ask what they are doing. Can TD examine all the coaches and not just their functions, but their success?

[farmerguychris]

It really just feels like we are in a holding pattern until the team is either sold - and we can:

1-Rejoyce, even temporarily at the potential of a changing of the old ways and the hopes of fielding a team that isn't focused fully on profitability, or

2: they announce that they are electing to not sell and we can really, really stop caring about the team.

 

[LA Vikes Fan]

Excellent article. Really sums up the malaise surrounding this team. And you're right, one game, even one play, can reignite a team and turn things around. Maybe Buxton's game saving catch last night can be that play. Keaschall might be the real deal and maybe Lewis is the first half of 2024 hitter when he's back in a couple of weeks. Festa might turn into something and there is other pitching on the way. One can see daylight if you squint hard and look all the way down the tunnel. 

Still, the bottom line is that the one thing that would spark this team and this fan base more than anything is an announcement of a sale. That can't happen soon enough.  

[In My La Z boy]

38 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I'm a long (looooooooong) time fan, and I can honestly say I have never been more down on this franchise.

Part of it is the changes to baseball itself. I don't enjoy the game as much these days. Fewer balls in play,, zero real starting pitchers, the emphasis on analytics over playing baseball, and on and on. The complete and seeming intentional competitive imbalance.

But mostly, I feel like the Twins have abandoned me. Like every single decision is meant only to squeeze maximum revenue out of me, rather than to try to win.

I haven't abandoned the Twins yet. But I feel pretty close. And I never would have said that, even through some pretty lean times in terms of wins.

I hope a sale happens, happens soon, and new ownership puts me higher in their "things I give a **** about" hierarchy. 

And on a larger scale, Major League Baseball itself needs a reset. Find some ways to start playing baseball again, because whatever this is, it aint what i call baseball

. And for heaven's sake, get a reasonable salary cap system in place immediately. 

Ditto.
Nothing reminds me of being a kid more than baseball. I used to line up along the first baseline before games at the old Met and wait for Rod Carew to come over for autographs. Most great memories I have include baseball in some way. Loved the frosty malt w/the wooden spoon & knothole day double-headers. I could spend the whole day at the park, and I did quite often. It's supposed to be a kids game. Now it's a billionaires play thing. 

[Karbo]

37 minutes ago, In My La Z boy said:

Ditto.
Nothing reminds me of being a kid more than baseball. I used to line up along the first baseline before games at the old Met and wait for Rod Carew to come over for autographs. Most great memories I have include baseball in some way. Loved the frosty malt w/the wooden spoon & knothole day double-headers. I could spend the whole day at the park, and I did quite often. It's supposed to be a kids game. Now it's a billionaires play thing. 

Well said. As a young boy in '61 I walked into the Met one early spring day and saw that beautiful green grass and manicured infield and fell in love with the game. I too waited along that 1st base line waiting for autographs. Watched players playing pepper (Why did they stop that?) and dreamed of playing on that field as a Twin someday, and have been hopelessly hooked since.

There were some pretty bad teams at times but at least they had management stressing fundamentals. Anyone remember what they are?

I will stay a fan until I die I suppose, but I sure would like to see them in 1 more WS or 2 before then.

[In My La Z boy]

6 minutes ago, Karbo said:

Well said. As a young boy in '61 I walked into the Met one early spring day and saw that beautiful green grass and manicured infield and fell in love with the game. I too waited along that 1st base line waiting for autographs. Watched players playing pepper (Why did they stop that?) and dreamed of playing on that field as a Twin someday, and have been hopelessly hooked since.

There were some pretty bad teams at times but at least they had management stressing fundamentals. Anyone remember what they are?

I will stay a fan until I die I suppose, but I sure would like to see them in 1 more WS or 2 before then.

Love this! Thanks old Twins friend! I didn't make it to the park until '73. The 1970's were lean years, but we had so much fun, and then Gene Mauch came along and we got better and were fun to watch. 1977 was probably my favorite year in that decade. What an enjoyable team to follow. 

[jccracraft]

"the Twins enjoyed a several-month stretch of high-caliber play last season". As others have pointed out on various site, this is not really accurate. Take away 12-1 (?) vs. the White Sox, and we were a 70 win team.

[Jocko87]

There is still one thing that can fix everything and an inside straight chance of it happening.

I've basically distilled it down to the fact they cannot seem to make hitters succeed at the major league level and somehow make previously successful hitters perform poorly.

If this organization had even a 50% hit rate on any number of young hitters, nothing else matters. A lineup of killers makes almost every decision of the past three years irrelevant. If they were actually fighting to get Martin and Miranda and Julien and so on at bats because they were actually good, nobody really cares free agent money or right sizing.

The draft and development capital invested should have paid much better than this. As the pitching has become exciting, the hitting lets all the air out of the balloon. Many have decided there is no hope in that department but I'm not quite there.

There have been signs lately, and with an entirely new coaching staff and significant changes in approach maybe an adjustment period is reasonable. It's been really bad, but adjustments are happening.

It's the only thing that can save the season. The pitching will be fine.  An offense that runs a bit, takes good at bats and remembers how to crush fastballs can still make this season really interesting. There is still time.

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, jccracraft said:

"the Twins enjoyed a several-month stretch of high-caliber play last season". As others have pointed out on various site, this is not really accurate. Take away 12-1 (?) vs. the White Sox, and we were a 70 win team.

Take the Yankees 11-1 against the Twins and White Sox away and they're an 83 win team last year and don't make the playoffs. Yeah, if you take double digit wins away from any team their record gets much worse. Crazy.

My goodness, the Dodgers went 13-3 against Colorado and Chicago. Take those 13 wins away. Clearly they were actually an 85 win team. Dang, now neither World Series team made the playoffs. 

As it turns out, every team plays bad teams and most of them dominate those bad teams. It's why those bad teams have so many loses. Because they lose to everyone. Not just the Twins.

[Blyleven2011]

Us old timers know baseball and this construction of players is not playing baseball , you got to love what you do and do it with passion and you will succeed  , most of our players are not realizing this and are just collecting a pay check while they are here  ...

The front office has no passion in doing there job , no professionalism  toward constructing a team or to the fans , they aquire a player that is no good and continue to play that player who is a detriment to the team , this front office and our great professional coaches has no professionalism  ( webster dictionary might be removing the word , because professionalism means sh** these days ) ...

faveys words not mine at time of rebuilding our infrastructure in the minors and cleaning  house ...

( his words , we have hired the best top professionals at each position , well that might be true in the minor leagues as they teach and develop players ,  it certainly is not true at the major league level that they have hired top professionals to continue to teach and develop our prospects talent at the hardest level , all these prospects haven't lived up to their billing , pitching has done better but the position players haven't on offense and defense and the fundamentals ) ...

WHAT COULD THE ANSWER REALLY BE ???

Is it coaching at the major league level or are we being led astray on the talent in our minor league prospects  ...

[Bodie]

Ishiba was never a buyer for the Twins. The "rumor" that he was was simply incorrect. Billion dollar transactions take time, and his time was invested in the White Sox, just like his money already was, and is now soon to be much more so.  He wasn't "windows shopping" or comparing prices on a car.

You can blame the ownership for many things. Scaring off the part owner of the White Sox is not one of them.  Just plain silly. 

[Craig Arko]

The expiration of the CBA after 2026?

[Bodie]

30 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Us old timers know baseball and this construction of players is not playing baseball , you got to love what you do and do it with passion and you will succeed  , most of our players are not realizing this and are just collecting a pay check while they are here  ...

The front office has no passion in doing there job , no professionalism  toward constructing a team or to the fans , they aquire a player that is no good and continue to play that player who is a detriment to the team , this front office and our great professional coaches has no professionalism  ( webster dictionary might be removing the word , because professionalism means sh** these days ) ...

faveys words not mine at time of rebuilding our infrastructure in the minors and cleaning  house ...

( his words , we have hired the best top professionals at each position , well that might be true in the minor leagues as they teach and develop players ,  it certainly is not true at the major league level that they have hired top professionals to continue to teach and develop our prospects talent at the hardest level , all these prospects haven't lived up to their billing , pitching has done better but the position players haven't on offense and defense and the fundamentals ) ...

WHAT COULD THE ANSWER REALLY BE ???

Is it coaching at the major league level or are we being led astray on the talent in our minor league prospects  ...

Too much statistics and not enough scouting (in the classic baseball sense) to put it  very simply. 

Got the expected/preferred bat speed?  Fantastic!!! Keep that up and you don't need to work on making contact!  Or improving your glove work. Or base running. Just swing hard and maintain that launch angle!

 

What would this organization done with an 18 year old Wade Boggs?  Does anyone believe that as a modern Twin he would be a multiple time batting champ?  Reach 3000 hits?  Hell, win a late career Gold Glove? 

Launch angle, launch angel, launch angel. (Take a breath) Bat speed!!!!

Not everyone is going to profile offensively as a slugging 1B/LF.  But the statistics say that is the way to go.  You have Frank Thomas, and maybe that is the way to go (though has Charlie (?) Lau approach at the plate still produced ok....). 

But, let's say you have Rod Carew.  You'll never convince me that he'd be a better hitter if he constantly swung from the heels. 

Baseball as a whole have gone far too far along this road of trying to turn every hitter into Dave Winfield. But somehow they keep getting heaps of Dave Kingmans.  One guy drew crowds.  The other derision. 

[Brett]

Honestly, it’s like no one has seen “Major League”. Put some Ricky Vaughn-esque glasses on Festa and let’s go!

[Doctor Gast]

Twins had one game plan before & that was to hit HRs. But defense, fundamentals, situational hitting, & baserunning have been abandoned. Twins have talked about changing & getting a running game going but they keep playing the same players who aren't good at it. IMO, they started to do this with NYM. They took the series against a rising NYM team that have been undefeated since. Twins have to change in how they play the game (get back to playing baseball), We need players who can get on base, steal bases, drive pitchers crazy & score runs. It seems they have taken Keaschall seriously, we need more than Buxton & Keaschall. Our team would be so much more exciting. & someone break Baldelli's I Pad.

[NYCTK]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Take the Yankees 11-1 against the Twins and White Sox away and they're an 83 win team last year and don't make the playoffs. Yeah, if you take double digit wins away from any team their record gets much worse. Crazy.

My goodness, the Dodgers went 13-3 against Colorado and Chicago. Take those 13 wins away. Clearly they were actually an 85 win team. Dang, now neither World Series team made the playoffs. 

As it turns out, every team plays bad teams and most of them dominate those bad teams. It's why those bad teams have so many loses. Because they lose to everyone. Not just the Twins.

This is incredibly disingenuous, as the Yankees would only have 67 losses with those 83 wins. A darn good record still. The Dodgers would likewise be 85-61...

Now how does that Twins 70-79 record look ignoring the games against the White Sox last season? Or this season's 5-14? 

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

There is still one thing that can fix everything and an inside straight chance of it happening.

I've basically distilled it down to the fact they cannot seem to make hitters succeed at the major league level and somehow make previously successful hitters perform poorly.

If this organization had even a 50% hit rate on any number of young hitters, nothing else matters. A lineup of killers makes almost every decision of the past three years irrelevant. If they were actually fighting to get Martin and Miranda and Julien and so on at bats because they were actually good, nobody really cares free agent money or right sizing.

The draft and development capital invested should have paid much better than this. As the pitching has become exciting, the hitting lets all the air out of the balloon. Many have decided there is no hope in that department but I'm not quite there.

There have been signs lately, and with an entirely new coaching staff and significant changes in approach maybe an adjustment period is reasonable. It's been really bad, but adjustments are happening.

It's the only thing that can save the season. The pitching will be fine.  An offense that runs a bit, takes good at bats and remembers how to crush fastballs can still make this season really interesting. There is still time.

Certainly player development has been a weakness. 

But I think thats only a small part of what ails this franchise.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

16 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

This is incredibly disingenuous, as the Yankees would only have 67 losses with those 83 wins. A darn good record still. The Dodgers would likewise be 85-61...

Now how does that Twins 70-79 record look ignoring the games against the White Sox last season? Or this season's 5-14? 

In a bubble, your argument has merit. But I don't think cherry picking portions of the season like this is a very accurate picture of a team. So many things go into each game: what happened the day before, what is happening tomorrow, injuries, player availability. A team could have a bad record versus a specific team because their pitchers were on the IL during that time... Any number of things go into each game.

I understand the point you are trying to make, I just think it is a much smaller piece of the overall puzzle than it sometimes is made out to be.

[chpettit19]

40 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

This is incredibly disingenuous, as the Yankees would only have 67 losses with those 83 wins. A darn good record still. The Dodgers would likewise be 85-61...

Now how does that Twins 70-79 record look ignoring the games against the White Sox last season? Or this season's 5-14? 

It's not any more disingenuous than picking out just the Twins games against Chicago and taking those wins off their record. That's the point. The entire idea of taking wins off a team's record because they came against a bad team is disingenuous. That's literally my point.

The Twins won 82 games last year. That isn't all that impressive to start with. They did have a multiple month long stretch in the middle of the season where they won games at a one the best rates in the league. They did play some bad teams during the season. But so did everybody else.

Should the standings be based on your record against teams over .500? Houston was under .500 against teams over .500, should their 88 wins not have got them into the playoffs because they weren't good against good teams? KC and Detroit were both also under .500 against teams over .500. In fact, there were only 3 teams in the entire American League with records over .500 against teams over .500. The Yankees, Orioles, and Guardians.

So, like I said, a lot of teams beat up on the bad teams. It's why they're bad.

Edit to add: Oh, and the Twins played 98 games against teams over .500 last year. Yankees played 93. Orioles played 91. Dodgers 92. Padres 94. Guardians 97. How about we stop acting like the Twins only played crappy teams last year?

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

There is still one thing that can fix everything and an inside straight chance of it happening.

I've basically distilled it down to the fact they cannot seem to make hitters succeed at the major league level and somehow make previously successful hitters perform poorly.

If this organization had even a 50% hit rate on any number of young hitters, nothing else matters. A lineup of killers makes almost every decision of the past three years irrelevant. If they were actually fighting to get Martin and Miranda and Julien and so on at bats because they were actually good, nobody really cares free agent money or right sizing.

The draft and development capital invested should have paid much better than this. As the pitching has become exciting, the hitting lets all the air out of the balloon. Many have decided there is no hope in that department but I'm not quite there.

There have been signs lately, and with an entirely new coaching staff and significant changes in approach maybe an adjustment period is reasonable. It's been really bad, but adjustments are happening.

It's the only thing that can save the season. The pitching will be fine.  An offense that runs a bit, takes good at bats and remembers how to crush fastballs can still make this season really interesting. There is still time.

Bingo

I've said this multiple times over the years and I will say it again. I will judge this front office on development and development alone. I think we have made good strides on the mound but on the offensive side... I am quite concerned and this front office has had more than enough time to not be where we are.

The Twins are taking the same approach to filling out the offensive side of the roster as the big boys are.  Free Agents and Vets are filling out the roster. However, the talent difference is striking. The big boys are signing Soto, Santander and Bellinger... we are signing Bader and France. If we try to play like the Yankees in here... we will lose to the Yankees out there is the line that sums it up from the movie Moneyball. Meanwhile, the Twins are quite simply behind the pace being set by the majority of the other 29 teams in terms of young controllable pre-arb players. 

Every time the Twins sign a Bader or a France to a one year deal (Even if Bader or France end up being average or even above average in the ONE YEAR that they are with us)... every time they do this... it should be a neon sign flashing to everyone watching that we have a development problem. If anyone doesn't believe this statement from me... just go to fangraphs/roster resource and look at all 29 teams and count the number of pre-arb players on the 26 man roster of each team. Take note of the development happening with Milwaukee and Cleveland and compare it with the Twins. The Twins are ranked in the bottom third of pre-arb players on the 26 man roster. Even the Red Sox with money flowing out of their pockets have nearly twice the number of pre-arb players than the Twins do.   

Here's the bottom line:

If the front office chooses to live and die with lower priced one year contract vets that still cost 4 to 5 to 10 times what a pre-arb player makes. If they choose the path of the one year contract because they didn't develop pre-arb players that make the minimum because they think they have better odds of winning the game today. If they choose this path and fail. They deserve to lose their jobs because they have left themselves with no path out of this mess. The only path is to do it again because they purposely put development for tomorrow in the backseat for today. 

You are correct when you say: "If this organization had even a 50% hit rate on any number of young hitters, nothing else matters".

Being ranked as the 7th best farm in baseball means absolutely nothing to me right now. Absolutely nothing. We can't afford to purchase players developed by other teams... we must develop our own. 

I'm tired of watching Jacob Wilson, Kristan Campbell, Jasson Dominquez, Eric Wageman, Jacob Mangum, Griffin Conine, Kameron Misner, Drake Baldwin, Javier Sonoja, Masyn Winn, Jackson Merrill, Jackson Chourio, Nolan Schnauel,  Colton Cowser, Michael Busch, Joey Ortiz, Andy Pages, Wilyer Abreu, Spencer Horwitz, Pete-Crow Armstrong, Tyler Fitzgerald, James Wood, Spencer Steer, Corbin Carroll, Ezequial Tover, Gunnar Henderson, Anthony Volpe, James Outman, Josh Jung, Maikel Garcia, Triston Cases, Jordan Walker, Brice Turang, Brenton Doyle. Elly De la Cruz, Francisco Alvarez, Matt McLain, Kyren Paris, Yanier Diaz among MANY others playing for other clubs while we choose ONE YEAR GUYS who will be off to greener pastures if they succeed and searching for a minor league deal with another team if they don't. 

 

[NYCTK]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

It's not any more disingenuous than picking out just the Twins games against Chicago and taking those wins off their record. That's the point. The entire idea of taking wins off a team's record because they came against a bad team is disingenuous. That's literally my point.

The Twins won 82 games last year. That isn't all that impressive to start with. They did have a multiple month long stretch in the middle of the season where they won games at a one the best rates in the league. They did play some bad teams during the season. But so did everybody else.

Should the standings be based on your record against teams over .500? Houston was under .500 against teams over .500, should their 88 wins not have got them into the playoffs because they weren't good against good teams? KC and Detroit were both also under .500 against teams over .500. In fact, there were only 3 teams in the entire American League with records over .500 against teams over .500. The Yankees, Orioles, and Guardians.

So, like I said, a lot of teams beat up on the bad teams. It's why they're bad.

Edit to add: Oh, and the Twins played 98 games against teams over .500 last year. Yankees played 93. Orioles played 91. Dodgers 92. Padres 94. Guardians 97. How about we stop acting like the Twins only played crappy teams last year?

I think you're reading into this point too much. No one's saying to ignore the 12 wins. But it is important context to the actual quality of the 2024 Twins season. 

Yes, the Twins DID have a good stretch in the middle of the season. But anyone that was truly paying attention also knew that it was largely a mirage. Like that 12 game win streak? 7 were against the White Sox. 

All this to say the 2024 Twins were pretty bad. And the 2025 are, unsurprisingly, worse. 

 

[NYCTK]

 

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Bingo

I've said this multiple times over the years and I will say it again. I will judge this front office on development and development alone. I think we have made good strides on the mound but on the offensive side... I am quite concerned and this front office has had more than enough time to not be where we are.

The Twins are taking the same approach to filling out the offensive side of the roster as the big boys are.  Free Agents and Vets are filling out the roster. However, the talent difference is striking. The big boys are signing Soto, Santander and Bellinger... we are signing Bader and France. If we try to play like the Yankees in here... we will lose to the Yankees out there is the line that sums it up from the movie Moneyball. Meanwhile, the Twins are quite simply behind the pace being set by the majority of the other 29 teams in terms of young controllable pre-arb players. 

Every time the Twins sign a Bader or a France to a one year deal (Even if Bader or France end up being average or even above average in the ONE YEAR that they are with us)... every time they do this... it should be a neon sign flashing to everyone watching that we have a development problem. If anyone doesn't believe this statement from me... just go to fangraphs/roster resource and look at all 29 teams and count the number of pre-arb players on the 26 man roster of each team. Take note of the development happening with Milwaukee and Cleveland and compare it with the Twins. The Twins are ranked in the bottom third of pre-arb players on the 26 man roster. Even the Red Sox with money flowing out of their pockets have nearly twice the number of pre-arb players than the Twins do.   

Here's the bottom line:

If the front office chooses to live and die with lower priced one year contract vets that still cost 4 to 5 to 10 times what a pre-arb player makes. If they choose the path of the one year contract because they didn't develop pre-arb players that make the minimum because they think they have better odds of winning the game today. If they choose this path and fail. They deserve to lose their jobs because they have left themselves with no path out of this mess. The only path is to do it again because they purposely put development for tomorrow in the backseat for today. 

You are correct when you say: "If this organization had even a 50% hit rate on any number of young hitters, nothing else matters".

Being ranked as the 7th best farm in baseball means absolutely nothing to me right now. Absolutely nothing. We can't afford to purchase players developed by other teams... we must develop our own. 

I'm tired of watching Jacob Wilson, Kristan Campbell, Jasson Dominquez, Eric Wageman, Jacob Mangum, Griffin Conine, Kameron Misner, Drake Baldwin, Javier Sonoja, Masyn Winn, Jackson Merrill, Jackson Chourio, Nolan Schnauel,  Colton Cowser, Michael Busch, Joey Ortiz, Andy Pages, Wilyer Abreu, Spencer Horwitz, Pete-Crow Armstrong, Tyler Fitzgerald, James Wood, Spencer Steer, Corbin Carroll, Ezequial Tover, Gunnar Henderson, Anthony Volpe, James Outman, Josh Jung, Maikel Garcia, Triston Cases, Jordan Walker, Brice Turang, Brenton Doyle. Elly De la Cruz, Francisco Alvarez, Matt McLain, Kyren Paris, Yanier Diaz among MANY others playing for other clubs while we choose ONE YEAR GUYS who will be off to greener pastures if they succeed and searching for a minor league deal with another team if they don't. 

 

This doesn't seem at all fair. The Twins aren't failing to develop players because Harrison Bader is on the roster. They're failing to develop players because their scouting and/or coaching are bad. It's completely independent of one year veteran contracts. 

Austin Martin wasn't a terrible player last season because Kyle Farmer was on the team. Trevor Larnach isn't a career 100 OPS+ guy because Harrison Bader is rostered. Jose Miranda doesn't have a 100 career OPS+ because Donovan Solano was on the 2023 team.  

Teams hire veterans to fill out rosters, and any team that wants to actually win SHOULD. This isn't some cause for pitchforks to the Twins Front Office, and this is coming from a guy that wants to fire them all. 

[mikelink45]

5 hours ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

Nick: In conversations I've had, even some of the true romantics are starting to peel off and disengage already. The 23-year low in attendance at Target Field last Monday spoke volumes about where the fanbase is at. Is an end in sight?

We see the signs in reduced attendance and in comments on this site.  Are there any metrics on page hits or posted comments on TD that suggest we are losing any dedicated fans here?  If we start losing TD'ers, and I've seen a few comments, then the Twins are in real trouble. 

Since I was an usher in year one and have followed them since day one I can say this team has really pushed me to the brink.  Luckily I have a job that has me traveling half the year so I have other distractions, but in the past I had Killebrew, Oliva, Kaat, Carew, Bostock, Viola, Hrbek, Blyleven, Gaetti, Puckett, Pascual, Tovar, and Mauer and Morneau who gave me joy win or not.  Then there was the "I love that kid" Wynegar and other players who made me want to be at the game.  I loved it when we had Mudcat and I wanted to see Vic Power with defense and energy at 1B.  

But now this team has no one who moves me to be excited.  Buxton is too injured or too erratic.  Correa has shown why other teams worried about his health.  Julien had a flash in the pan year, but I really miss Arraez.  No energy, no special qualities (I almost used a French phrase there) and if they are blasé' why should I get excited? 

Put that into context with all the elements that Nick described plus contraction and the buzz I got attending all the 1991 WS games is hard to sustain.  I had hoped that Lewis would be that great and joyful player, but an injury list longer than his stat summary diminishes that potential.   

[JADBP]

I guess the bottom line for me is this:  The Pohlad's are getting exactly what they deserve.  They ran this team into the ground.  Whether through mismanagement, through bad player development, though bad signings, through payroll "right-sizing" or through whatever other BS that they have tried over the last 5-10 years, THEY HAVE FAILED. And, fans are paying them back...with their non-attendance!  So, the team value is shrinking (who wants to buy an abject loser?) and the owners are likely to have to take out more loans to cover inevitable losses.  They are just slowly bleeding to death.  Its their own fault. 

They are never going to get anywhere close to $1.7 Billion (minus their debt against the team).  That ship has sailed.  Its their own fault. 

And now the truth is out.  The family put their fine investment into a death spiral when they put Joe in charge.  Its their own damn fault!!!  

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Bingo

I've said this multiple times over the years and I will say it again. I will judge this front office on development and development alone. I think we have made good strides on the mound but on the offensive side... I am quite concerned and this front office has had more than enough time to not be where we are.

The Twins are taking the same approach to filling out the offensive side of the roster as the big boys are.  Free Agents and Vets are filling out the roster. However, the talent difference is striking. The big boys are signing Soto, Santander and Bellinger... we are signing Bader and France. If we try to play like the Yankees in here... we will lose to the Yankees out there is the line that sums it up from the movie Moneyball. Meanwhile, the Twins are quite simply behind the pace being set by the majority of the other 29 teams in terms of young controllable pre-arb players. 

Every time the Twins sign a Bader or a France to a one year deal (Even if Bader or France end up being average or even above average in the ONE YEAR that they are with us)... every time they do this... it should be a neon sign flashing to everyone watching that we have a development problem. If anyone doesn't believe this statement from me... just go to fangraphs/roster resource and look at all 29 teams and count the number of pre-arb players on the 26 man roster of each team. Take note of the development happening with Milwaukee and Cleveland and compare it with the Twins. The Twins are ranked in the bottom third of pre-arb players on the 26 man roster. Even the Red Sox with money flowing out of their pockets have nearly twice the number of pre-arb players than the Twins do.   

Here's the bottom line:

If the front office chooses to live and die with lower priced one year contract vets that still cost 4 to 5 to 10 times what a pre-arb player makes. If they choose the path of the one year contract because they didn't develop pre-arb players that make the minimum because they think they have better odds of winning the game today. If they choose this path and fail. They deserve to lose their jobs because they have left themselves with no path out of this mess. The only path is to do it again because they purposely put development for tomorrow in the backseat for today. 

You are correct when you say: "If this organization had even a 50% hit rate on any number of young hitters, nothing else matters".

Being ranked as the 7th best farm in baseball means absolutely nothing to me right now. Absolutely nothing. We can't afford to purchase players developed by other teams... we must develop our own. 

I'm tired of watching Jacob Wilson, Kristan Campbell, Jasson Dominquez, Eric Wageman, Jacob Mangum, Griffin Conine, Kameron Misner, Drake Baldwin, Javier Sonoja, Masyn Winn, Jackson Merrill, Jackson Chourio, Nolan Schnauel,  Colton Cowser, Michael Busch, Joey Ortiz, Andy Pages, Wilyer Abreu, Spencer Horwitz, Pete-Crow Armstrong, Tyler Fitzgerald, James Wood, Spencer Steer, Corbin Carroll, Ezequial Tover, Gunnar Henderson, Anthony Volpe, James Outman, Josh Jung, Maikel Garcia, Triston Cases, Jordan Walker, Brice Turang, Brenton Doyle. Elly De la Cruz, Francisco Alvarez, Matt McLain, Kyren Paris, Yanier Diaz among MANY others playing for other clubs while we choose ONE YEAR GUYS who will be off to greener pastures if they succeed and searching for a minor league deal with another team if they don't. 

Bingo! I've been preaching this for years. Yet nobody listens because it's the opposite of what social media propagates.

[chpettit19]

21 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

I think you're reading into this point too much. No one's saying to ignore the 12 wins. But it is important context to the actual quality of the 2024 Twins season. 

Yes, the Twins DID have a good stretch in the middle of the season. But anyone that was truly paying attention also knew that it was largely a mirage. Like that 12 game win streak? 7 were against the White Sox. 

All this to say the 2024 Twins were pretty bad. And the 2025 are, unsurprisingly, worse. 

 

I'm not. I'm pointing out that literally every team plays those bad teams. I am literally providing context. I didn't mention any 12-game win streak. I mentioned months. Like over half the season. Then I mentioned the entire season and how many teams over .500 they played over the entirety of the season. I understand the context. I'm providing more. Like the fact that literally 100% of Major League Baseball teams play and beat bad teams. It's why they're bad. Because everybody beats them.

The 2024 Twins were roughly a .500 team. The 2025 Twins are 23 games into a 162-game season. You're more than welcome to make declarations on what this team is. Anyone is. I'm going to go ahead and wait a little longer than 14% of the season to decide on what any team or player is for the 2025 MLB season. 162 is a lot of games. Enough for me to say that your record is a pretty darn accurate representation of who you are. You can slice and dice things however you want to confirm your biases. Feel free to do it however you want. I'll take a 162-game sample size and say that's what the teams were. The teams were a pretty darn average team.