Is This a Championship Core?

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Royce Lewis has had his status elevated very quickly among Twins fans. The home runs in the playoffs and his energy when he came aboard were great. It just seems a little early to declare Lewis a star. I mean, I hope he is as much as anyone else. He only has about 250 at bats though. Next season will be huge for Royce as he attempts to become the superstar often associated with #1-1 draft picks. 

The core is in flux and unsteady as others have mentioned. The Twins have holes and there will be plenty of challenges for the Twins to repeat as AL Central Division winners. The two biggest questions go right towards our stars: Buxton and Correa. From there the Twins have questions about their young guys and a hole in the rotation. Other than that, everything is great.

You have hit the nail on the head. 

Correa and Buxton performing like Correa and Buxton SHOULD perform are indeed the two biggest questions entering 2024 and the two biggest solutions for 2024.

Those two performing like they SHOULD perform would be bigger for the organization in 2024 than any free agent or trade acquisition made this off-season. 

We got two huge players in-house that can cure a lot of what ails us. 

[Major League Ready]

These 3 players are important but this team turning into a true contender will depend on a number of other things going right ...

 1) Finding additions SP depth including another well above average SP

2) The BP - Does Stewart remaining effective / Thielbar defy aging / Alcala finally staying healthy / Adding depth

3) Wallner / Kirilloff stepping up, staying healthy and maturing as players.

4) Piecing together a complimentary bench.  The pieces fit together well last year.

5) The next wave of young players contributing and giving a similar boost to last year.  We need a couple of Martin / Severino / Camargo on the position side and one or two of the young pitchers with question marks (Raya / Canterino / Festa /  Balazovic / Winder) stepping up would be big.

6) Trades that fill holes and compliment the roster.

7) Health.

[Major League Ready]

11 minutes ago, RpR said:

Well then their combine WAR is 3.4 so you statement makes no sense.

He was not better a defender at the end than he was at the start; the only reason was that who ever scored the games babied some Twins  by not scoring a LOT of  screw-ups as errors.

Even the announcers mentioned said same more than once.

He is slow and awkward.

Do you understand that hitting is also important?  Why would you only show the value of fielding.  You are obsessed with defense to the point where you can't or won't see the whole picture.  The last value in this chart is total WAR.  The real irony is you point to the importance of Solano when he is at best equivalent to Julien in field and according to Fangraphs, worse but you support him because he is an older player. You need to look around the league.

1	Edouard Julien	MIN	109	408	16	60	37	3	15.7%	31.4%	.195	.371	.263	.381	.459	.366	.348	136	0.3	17.9	-3.8	2.8
2	Ryan Jeffers	MIN	96	335	14	46	43	3	9.9%	27.8%	.213	.359	.276	.369	.490	.369	.334	138	-1.8	13.4	2.3	2.7
3	Max Kepler	MIN	130	491	24	72	66	1	9.2%	21.6%	.224	.288	.260	.332	.484	.348	.363	124	-3.5	10.5	-0.8	2.6
4	Willi Castro	MIN	124	409	9	60	34	33	8.3%	24.2%	.154	.328	.257	.339	.411	.327	.306	109	6.4	10.9	0.4	2.5
5	Royce Lewis	MIN	58	239	15	36	52	6	8.4%	23.0%	.240	.354	.309	.372	.548	.393	.349	155	0.1	15.7	0.5	2.4
6	Matt Wallner	MIN	76	254	14	42	41	2	11.0%	31.5%	.258	.328	.249	.370	.507	.377	.376	144	1.6	14.8	-4.5	1.9
7	Michael A. Taylor	MIN	129	388	21	48	51	13	6.7%	33.5%	.223	.278	.220	.278	.442	.308	.311	96	2.3	0.2	3.4	1.7
8	Kyle Farmer	MIN	120	369	11	49	46	2	6.2%	23.3%	.152	.311	.256	.317	.408	.316	.312	101	0.5	1.0	3.0	1.6
9	Jorge Polanco	MIN	80	343	14	38	48	4	10.5%	25.7%	.199	.310	.255	.335	.454	.340	.351	118	1.7	9.1	-5.5	1.5
10	Donovan Solano	MIN	134	450	5	43	38	0	8.9%	22.2%	.109	.366	.282	.369	.391	.338	.349	116	-2.7	6.2	-9.1	1.2
11	Carlos Correa	MIN	135	580	18	60	65	0	10.2%	22.6%	.169	.272	.230	.312	.399	.309	.329	96	-9.2	-11.8	3.5	1.1
12	Christian Vázquez	MIN	102	355	6	34	32	1	7.0%	23.1%	.095	.279	.223	.280	.318	.264	.265	65	-4.4	-19.1	16.6	1.0
13	Alex Kirilloff	MIN	88	319	11	35	41	1	8.8%	25.1%	.174	.337	.270	.348	.445	.343	.333	120	0.8	8.4	-11.2	0.8
14	Joey Gallo	MIN	111	332	21	39	40	1	14.5%	42.8%	.262	.244	.177	.301	.440	.320	.302	104	1.0	2.5	-6.5	0.7
15	Byron Buxton	MIN	85	347	17	49	42	9	10.1%	31.4%	.230	.253	.207	.294	.438	.311	.320	98	4.8	4.0	-8.6	0.7

[old nurse]

1 hour ago, RpR said:

War doe not decide a players true value or Jeffers, Julien would  gone.

Juliens defense is a hole in the infield.

You live by analytics,, I do not.

 

First mistake, Farmer is still part of the team. Second mistake is eye tests. In comparing Julian to all the other. 2b, Julian comes out on the low side of average defensively. Eyes have a built in bias in many cases, 

[roger]

6 hours ago, RpR said:

With out Farmer and Solano, this year, the Twins would not have made the post season.

Will they be replaced well enough?

Did I miss something?  Isn’t Farmer still a Twin?

[RpR]

4 minutes ago, roger said:

Did I miss something?  Isn’t Farmer still a Twin?

But, but is he not going to be traded like Kepler and Polanco?😂

[Fatbat]

8 hours ago, jjswol said:

When Buxton shows up and proves he can play center field than he moves into the  core status player. Until then, he remains a number one pick that didn't pan out.

Its not like he tried to bust his knee and pull muscles. Injuries happen and it messes up careers but if he comes back and just plays solidly and stays healthy, he is the best player we have in the outfield.  Yup, he is wound up tight and fragile but that doesn’t mean he wont age well. 

[roger]

15 minutes ago, RpR said:

But, but is he not going to be traded like Kepler and Polanco?😂

I prefer  to deal with the team they have.

[tony&rodney]

3 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Do you watch the games? 

This is a question that often comes to my mind when reading various comments online. Reading all of the statistics can be interesting but there is no substitute for seeing. I can explain a Redwood tree endlessly but until you have seen one the reality hasn't set in. That doesn't mean that one cannot be a fan or have strong opinions on the Twins or players but discussions on a common topic, like the core of the Twins for 2024, depends to some extent on understanding the players from having seen them play. I will give just one example - Julien. Young Edouard is a lightning rod of sorts for fan analysts. He was really nervous and seemingly afraid of every ball that came his way early in the year. Every throw looked terrible. As Julien settled in, his play in the field improved dramatically. By the end of the year he was just another average second baseman. Those who watched him play could see the increase in range, the shifting of his weight, and see how he began to (mol) smoothly transfer the ball from glove to hand and complete the plays. A refusal to acknowledge the improvement could only be due to Not having watched the games. Is Julien a part of the next core? I don't know about that, but I know that there is Correa and Buxton leading the team. That is the core, plain and simple. Others are free to take up the banner. We shall see who it is and you can judge for yourself by watching the games.

[Jocko87]

8 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Royce Lewis has had his status elevated very quickly among Twins fans. The home runs in the playoffs and his energy when he came aboard were great. It just seems a little early to declare Lewis a star. I mean, I hope he is as much as anyone else. He only has about 250 at bats though. Next season will be huge for Royce as he attempts to become the superstar often associated with #1-1 draft picks. 

The core is in flux and unsteady as others have mentioned. The Twins have holes and there will be plenty of challenges for the Twins to repeat as AL Central Division winners. The two biggest questions go right towards our stars: Buxton and Correa. From there the Twins have questions about their young guys and a hole in the rotation. Other than that, everything is great.

Agreed on Royce but man am I excited to see what happens after an offseason on two legs.

[ashbury]

People seem unwilling to break ideas in two, and say that this is a talented but injury-plagued core.  Demanding that players with track records like theirs "prove they can play" comes across as smug.

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

This is a question that often comes to my mind when reading various comments online. Reading all of the statistics can be interesting but there is no substitute for seeing. I can explain a Redwood tree endlessly but until you have seen one the reality hasn't set in. That doesn't mean that one cannot be a fan or have strong opinions on the Twins or players but discussions on a common topic, like the core of the Twins for 2024, depends to some extent on understanding the players from having seen them play. I will give just one example - Julien. Young Edouard is a lightning rod of sorts for fan analysts. He was really nervous and seemingly afraid of every ball that came his way early in the year. Every throw looked terrible. As Julien settled in, his play in the field improved dramatically. By the end of the year he was just another average second baseman. Those who watched him play could see the increase in range, the shifting of his weight, and see how he began to (mol) smoothly transfer the ball from glove to hand and complete the plays. A refusal to acknowledge the improvement could only be due to Not having watched the games. Is Julien a part of the next core? I don't know about that, but I know that there is Correa and Buxton leading the team. That is the core, plain and simple. Others are free to take up the banner. We shall see who it is and you can judge for yourself by watching the games.

Analytics isn't having and using data. Its knowing what data to apply in the appropriate situations.  We should not be comparing WAR and OAA (large sample size stats) with the eye test, a guy feeling more comfortable, a guy playing free and easy, a guy that got drunk last night (small sample size stats).  The small sample size stuff will bear itself out in the larger samples, either in performance or splits and platoons.  The small sample size stuff wins games, the large sample size wins pennants.  Getting the combo right wins championships.

Incidentally, I'm discovering again to no surprise to anyone, in all my fantasy football efforts I'm an excellent accumulator of talents but a terrible game day manager.  I just don't care to look deep enough into WR/CB matchups for hours on Saturday but I pay enough attention to know who is good or going to be good. 

[tony&rodney]

22 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

Analytics isn't having and using data. Its knowing what data to apply in the appropriate situations.  We should not be comparing WAR and OAA (large sample size stats) with the eye test, a guy feeling more comfortable, a guy playing free and easy, a guy that got drunk last night (small sample size stats).  The small sample size stuff will bear itself out in the larger samples, either in performance or splits and platoons.  The small sample size stuff wins games, the large sample size wins pennants.  Getting the combo right wins championships.

Incidentally, I'm discovering again to no surprise to anyone, in all my fantasy football efforts I'm an excellent accumulator of talents but a terrible game day manager.  I just don't care to look deep enough into WR/CB matchups for hours on Saturday but I pay enough attention to know who is good or going to be good. 

I read this twice but don't understand the connection to what you quoted or the post of what is the core.... or ....

Is it that getting the core combinations correct wins championships? This makes sense.

[DocBauer]

Nick, my only quibble is the headline concerning a CORE and then focusing on 3 players. I really thought we might be talking more about Duran, Lopez, Julien, Wallner, etc, AND the 3 main topics/players.

But let's address these 3:

LEWIS: His knee seems fine. To my immediate knowledge, he's never been "plagued" by soft tissue injuries previously. Maybe they were freakish, or just a kid playing every day for the first time in a couple of years? He's a stud, no worries.

CORREA: He's one of the smartest ballplayers I've ever seen! He works out like crazy to stay in shape and be prepared. He's only 29yo. He was great in 2022 after a slow start. Plantar fasciitis is NOT age related. It's a painful, debilitating condition brought about from anything from a weird step, to the wrong shoes. I've had it. I wouldn't wish it on anyone! I have ZERO doubt that if gone, he will be his usually self going forward.

BUXTON: His production and value just can't be denied when you look at his numbers, unless you just want to argue for argument and disappointment sake. I have ZERO clue as to whether he will be good to go in '24. I'm crossing my fingers he's good for 90-100 games in CF, and another 20 games at DH. 

I get pushback, or ignored, when I state that Byron Buxton as a DH, now occasionally, or more in the future, doesn't work. Why? Because it played out so badly in 2023? IF/WHEN Buxton can't play CF any longer, the OPS/WAR Buxton pre-2023 could make an outstanding DH, IF he can channel his competitive nature in to accepting that role. He sure wouldn't be the first All Star caliber player to make such a move.  How many Davis, Thomas, Molitor references would I have to bring up to show the possibility? But let's all just hope it's an issue for a different day, way down the road.

BUT ADDING....

Lee has future All Star written all over him, which is why I don't want him gone.

Julien HAS improved SO MUCH defensively, to the fan eye test, as well as pundits and broadcasters stating the same. Is there room for all the INF talent? Pfft...you figure that out when it happens.

Jeffers finally hitting his offensive stride in 2023 after having less than 600 ML AB is not a surprise to me. 

Wallner might not be a finished product just yet, but the defense has improved. The power is lights out! And he's shown the ability, so far, to grow and adjust, just like he did in his milb career and advancement. 

Lopez might even get better. Said it before and will say it again: TOP starters reach a point in their late 20's where STUFF and the mental part of the game come together to reach another level.

Duran is..err..pretty special already.

I don't think we've seen the best of Ober yet.

Ryan might not ever be a STUD, but he was pretty close to it for 2/3 of last season before he tried to pitch throw a groin injury. (Requisite forehead slap)!

And lest he be left out...as he often is in regard to many discussions of this nature...Alex Krilloff MIGHT be one of the biggest core pieces on the Twins going forward. The 1st round pick, former top 100 prospect, is still only 26yo and has been through hell with his wrist injury issue. He was brought along slowly in 2023, provided a solid BA and a disciplined approach for AVG and contact and OB% better than he had shown previously. And then the power returned! For a few months in 2023, he was the Twins best hitter. His shoulder injury, thankfully I guess, had nothing to do with his wrist procedure, which seems to have been a success, and while painful, was ultimately reported as minor. In other words, not career threatening after all he's been through previously. Now, I have no idea how the Twins will bring him along for ST and the start of the season, but REPORTS were he'd be ready to go. His bat just might be as special as Lewis's, which is saying a lot.

Is there a core in place? YES. Is it a championship core? MAYBE.  And I DON'T say that as a defeatist. I only say "maybe" because we need to KEEP the rotation and pen strong along with the lineup. And because, simply, you can win 100 games and still get washed out in the playoffs. Witness how many years of the UBER $ spending Dogers, if nobody else.

But is there a real, viable, competitive core in place at Target Field with our beloved Twins right now? ABSOLUTELY.

[darin617]

6 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

These 3 players are important but this team turning into a true contender will depend on a number of other things going right ...

 1) Finding additions SP depth including another well above average SP

2) The BP - Does Stewart remaining effective / Thielbar defy aging / Alcala finally staying healthy / Adding depth

3) Wallner / Kirilloff stepping up, staying healthy and maturing as players.

4) Piecing together a complimentary bench.  The pieces fit together well last year.

5) The next wave of young players contributing and giving a similar boost to last year.  We need a couple of Martin / Severino       / Camargo on the position side and one or two of the young pitchers with question marks (Raya / Canterino / Festa /             Balazovic / Winder) stepping up would be big.

6) Trades that fill holes and compliment the roster.

7) Health.

I'm happy winning the AL Central and a playoff series in 2024. We can look at your list of 7 things and if 1 of them does not work out they are screwed. The Twins don't have the prospect depth to pull off a major trade now and another during the season if needed.

[RpR]

59 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

Nick, my only quibble is the headline concerning a CORE and then focusing on 3 players. I really thought we might be talking more about Duran, Lopez, Julien, Wallner, etc, AND the 3 main topics/players.

But let's address these 3:

LEWIS: His knee seems fine. To my immediate knowledge, he's never been "plagued" by soft tissue injuries previously. Maybe they were freakish, or just a kid playing every day for the first time in a couple of years? He's a stud, no worries.

CORREA: He's one of the smartest ballplayers I've ever seen! He works out like crazy to stay in shape and be prepared. He's only 29yo. He was great in 2022 after a slow start. Plantar fasciitis is NOT age related. It's a painful, debilitating condition brought about from anything from a weird step, to the wrong shoes. I've had it. I wouldn't wish it on anyone! I have ZERO doubt that if gone, he will be his usually self going forward.

BUXTON: His production and value just can't be denied when you look at his numbers, unless you just want to argue for argument and disappointment sake. I have ZERO clue as to whether he will be good to go in '24. I'm crossing my fingers he's good for 90-100 games in CF, and another 20 games at DH. 

I get pushback, or ignored, when I state that Byron Buxton as a DH, now occasionally, or more in the future, doesn't work. Why? Because it played out so badly in 2023? IF/WHEN Buxton can't play CF any longer, the OPS/WAR Buxton pre-2023 could make an outstanding DH, IF he can channel his competitive nature in to accepting that role. He sure wouldn't be the first All Star caliber player to make such a move.  How many Davis, Thomas, Molitor references would I have to bring up to show the possibility? But let's all just hope it's an issue for a different day, way down the road.

BUT ADDING....

Lee has future All Star written all over him, which is why I don't want him gone.

Julien HAS improved SO MUCH defensively, to the fan eye test, as well as pundits and broadcasters stating the same. Is there room for all the INF talent? Pfft...you figure that out when it happens.

Jeffers finally hitting his offensive stride in 2023 after having less than 600 ML AB is not a surprise to me. 

Wallner might not be a finished product just yet, but the defense has improved. The power is lights out! And he's shown the ability, so far, to grow and adjust, just like he did in his milb career and advancement. 

Lopez might even get better. Said it before and will say it again: TOP starters reach a point in their late 20's where STUFF and the mental part of the game come together to reach another level.

Duran is..err..pretty special already.

I don't think we've seen the best of Ober yet.

Ryan might not ever be a STUD, but he was pretty close to it for 2/3 of last season before he tried to pitch throw a groin injury. (Requisite forehead slap)!

And lest he be left out...as he often is in regard to many discussions of this nature...Alex Krilloff MIGHT be one of the biggest core pieces on the Twins going forward. The 1st round pick, former top 100 prospect, is still only 26yo and has been through hell with his wrist injury issue. He was brought along slowly in 2023, provided a solid BA and a disciplined approach for AVG and contact and OB% better than he had shown previously. And then the power returned! For a few months in 2023, he was the Twins best hitter. His shoulder injury, thankfully I guess, had nothing to do with his wrist procedure, which seems to have been a success, and while painful, was ultimately reported as minor. In other words, not career threatening after all he's been through previously. Now, I have no idea how the Twins will bring him along for ST and the start of the season, but REPORTS were he'd be ready to go. His bat just might be as special as Lewis's, which is saying a lot.

Is there a core in place? YES. Is it a championship core? MAYBE.  And I DON'T say that as a defeatist. I only say "maybe" because we need to KEEP the rotation and pen strong along with the lineup. And because, simply, you can win 100 games and still get washed out in the playoffs. Witness how many years of the UBER $ spending Dogers, if nobody else.

But is there a real, viable, competitive core in place at Target Field with our beloved Twins right now? ABSOLUTELY.

Rose colored glasses or wishful thinking, but then, I suppose it is better than dissing the possibily Buxton will recover well.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

1 hour ago, DocBauer said:

Nick, my only quibble is the headline concerning a CORE and then focusing on 3 players. I really thought we might be talking more about Duran, Lopez, Julien, Wallner, etc, AND the 3 main topics/players.

But let's address these 3:

LEWIS: His knee seems fine. To my immediate knowledge, he's never been "plagued" by soft tissue injuries previously. Maybe they were freakish, or just a kid playing every day for the first time in a couple of years? He's a stud, no worries.

CORREA: He's one of the smartest ballplayers I've ever seen! He works out like crazy to stay in shape and be prepared. He's only 29yo. He was great in 2022 after a slow start. Plantar fasciitis is NOT age related. It's a painful, debilitating condition brought about from anything from a weird step, to the wrong shoes. I've had it. I wouldn't wish it on anyone! I have ZERO doubt that if gone, he will be his usually self going forward.

BUXTON: His production and value just can't be denied when you look at his numbers, unless you just want to argue for argument and disappointment sake. I have ZERO clue as to whether he will be good to go in '24. I'm crossing my fingers he's good for 90-100 games in CF, and another 20 games at DH. 

I get pushback, or ignored, when I state that Byron Buxton as a DH, now occasionally, or more in the future, doesn't work. Why? Because it played out so badly in 2023? IF/WHEN Buxton can't play CF any longer, the OPS/WAR Buxton pre-2023 could make an outstanding DH, IF he can channel his competitive nature in to accepting that role. He sure wouldn't be the first All Star caliber player to make such a move.  How many Davis, Thomas, Molitor references would I have to bring up to show the possibility? But let's all just hope it's an issue for a different day, way down the road.

BUT ADDING....

Lee has future All Star written all over him, which is why I don't want him gone.

Julien HAS improved SO MUCH defensively, to the fan eye test, as well as pundits and broadcasters stating the same. Is there room for all the INF talent? Pfft...you figure that out when it happens.

Jeffers finally hitting his offensive stride in 2023 after having less than 600 ML AB is not a surprise to me. 

Wallner might not be a finished product just yet, but the defense has improved. The power is lights out! And he's shown the ability, so far, to grow and adjust, just like he did in his milb career and advancement. 

Lopez might even get better. Said it before and will say it again: TOP starters reach a point in their late 20's where STUFF and the mental part of the game come together to reach another level.

Duran is..err..pretty special already.

I don't think we've seen the best of Ober yet.

Ryan might not ever be a STUD, but he was pretty close to it for 2/3 of last season before he tried to pitch throw a groin injury. (Requisite forehead slap)!

And lest he be left out...as he often is in regard to many discussions of this nature...Alex Krilloff MIGHT be one of the biggest core pieces on the Twins going forward. The 1st round pick, former top 100 prospect, is still only 26yo and has been through hell with his wrist injury issue. He was brought along slowly in 2023, provided a solid BA and a disciplined approach for AVG and contact and OB% better than he had shown previously. And then the power returned! For a few months in 2023, he was the Twins best hitter. His shoulder injury, thankfully I guess, had nothing to do with his wrist procedure, which seems to have been a success, and while painful, was ultimately reported as minor. In other words, not career threatening after all he's been through previously. Now, I have no idea how the Twins will bring him along for ST and the start of the season, but REPORTS were he'd be ready to go. His bat just might be as special as Lewis's, which is saying a lot.

Is there a core in place? YES. Is it a championship core? MAYBE.  And I DON'T say that as a defeatist. I only say "maybe" because we need to KEEP the rotation and pen strong along with the lineup. And because, simply, you can win 100 games and still get washed out in the playoffs. Witness how many years of the UBER $ spending Dogers, if nobody else.

But is there a real, viable, competitive core in place at Target Field with our beloved Twins right now? ABSOLUTELY.

I agree with pretty much everything here.  I would add that a championship won’t be won or lost by 3 guys in a core, plus crowning on an inexperienced Lewis and a complete wild card in Buxton as “the core” would keep me up at night. Good to excellent seasons will need to be had by Kiriloff, Wallner, and Julien, as well as by some pitchers in order for this to happen. Maybe a rookie or two will show up, maybe not.  Maybe they’ll pull off a great trade or a lucky one.  MLB isn’t the NBA. At least 10 and usually more like 14-15 players play in every game.  You need lots of strong contributions to win a championship. Do the Twins have a core like that?  Maybe. It’s a long off season yet plus a long and unpredictable 162 game season until we get to find out. Go Twins!

[RaoulDuke]

The ceiling is very high, but the floor is much lower than many real championship teams.  Buxton/ Correa/ Lewis is insane in fairy world where **** actually goes right.  That being said reality has not been kind and all 3 have suffered extensively with injuries. 

I like last years model of hoping they stay healthy while succeeding with pitching.  Focus assets on improving the 2/3 spots in the rotation.  Focus on the rotation and trade a hitter to solidify a number 2. 

Julien/ Lewis/ Lee/ Rodriguez represent some real future building blocks that could be very valuable in acquiring a good starter.

 

[NotAboutWinning]

Imagine a world where these 3 guys are firing on all cylinders and the kids are improving week by week!

[Johnny Ringo]

15 hours ago, RpR said:

War doe not decide a players true value or Jeffers, Julien would  gone.

Juliens defense is a hole in the infield.

You live by analytics,, I do not.

 

Julien would be gone because of analytics? 

To quote Mandy Pantinkin in the Princess Bride, " I do not think this word means what you think it means." 

If you Google what Moneyball means, you might find a picture of Eddie. He is the very essence of what Billy Beane saw before the rest of world did. A guy dismissed because of middling dee and average power but an on-base MACHINE. 

How a kid from French Canada grew into this is a head-scratcher but the way he grinds out at-bats is a marvel. It is like Beane invented him in a lab. 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ringo said:

How a kid from French Canada grew into this is a head-scratcher but the way he grinds out at-bats is a marvel. It is like Beane invented him in a lab. 

This is it. This was my reaction when I watched him play a couple of years ago for Wichita. How far can he go?

Well said.

[old nurse]

The core f the team is not 3 players. The anchors of the starting rotation, Lopez and what they add, and the back of the bullpen, Duran, Jax, Thielbarr and whoever they add are core to winning.. The unhealthy core of 3 should actually be 4 with Polanco added. The continued success of Julien, Jeffers, and Wallner are equally important, as is the progression of Ober and Ryan.  The core has to be that deep for the playoffs. 

[Otaknam]

The Twins core should win the ALC and can make a playoff run again, with a mix of veterans and emerging young talent. And there are others, like Lee, who are ready to contribute. Of course this assumes Buxton will be healthy, which requires a large amount of skepticism, and continued improvement from the young players. But they do need more starting  pitching. My guess is they will trade Brooks Lee and another higher prospect for a very good starter who is under team control for 2-3 years. Lee is blocked by other young guys, so it does make some sense. I hope they don’t trade him and find a starter some other way. Not sure this team can make a real World Series run, though, unless the pitching is excellent. Just comparing the Twins lineup with Atlanta’s lineup seems like a mismatch right now. Hence pitching has to be the equalizer IMO.

 

[TopGunn#22]

Johnny Ringo, anytime a guy can mix in a quote from Indigo Montoya that's a thumbs up from me every time !!  

I think Doc Bauer has boiled this all down the best.  It helps to have a core, a "Big Three" if you will, but CHAMPIONSIP teams always have solid contributors throughout their lineup.  The T-Wolves will rely heavily on Edwards, KAT & Rudy, but guys like Conley, McDaniels and Naz Reid MUST step up for them to truly make some noise.  Heck, Troy Brown is saving them in McDaniels absence in the here and now.

Doc bringing up Kirilloff is something I whole-heartedly agree with.  The kid has the swing of Will Clark if he could just stay healthy.  Correa will just simply have a bounce back year and it will be huge for the team.  Royce Lewis in my opinion is the real deal.  He's going to hit .285-.310 and knock 30 HR's out of the park.  But in addition, there is room for guys like Julien, Jeffers and Wallner to grow.  One or more may suffer a sophomore slump, but the guy I would bet my house mortgage on NOT slumping is Julien.  I love his approach.  If he can improve a bit against LH pitching he will score 100 runs. 

And then there is the Brooks Lee question.  Does he break camp with the Twins?  If not, when does he arrive?  Because he's going to arrive sometime in 2024.  How big will his impact be?

I also agree that we still haven't seen the best of Lopez but that finding a solid #2 or even a guy who could challenge Lopez for #1 is vital.  Teams that pitch are always in a ballgame and that's when guys like Lewis, Correa or Kirilloff can get you the big hit to come out on top.

It's frustrating as a fan to wait like a kid at Christmas to see who the Twins will gift us for that #2 SP.  Maybe they end up giving us a lump of coal.  The groundwork is being laid at the Winter Meetings for some moves to be made.    

[DJL44]

11 hours ago, DocBauer said:

I get pushback, or ignored, when I state that Byron Buxton as a DH, now occasionally, or more in the future, doesn't work. Why? Because it played out so badly in 2023? IF/WHEN Buxton can't play CF any longer, the OPS/WAR Buxton pre-2023 could make an outstanding DH, IF he can channel his competitive nature in to accepting that role. Field with our beloved Twins right now? ABSOLUTELY.

His competitive nature is fine. The knee injury meant he couldn't load on his back leg. One of my favorite hitting coaches likes to say "a good load fixes a lot of flaws".

[TwinsDr2021]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:22 AM, jjswol said:

When Buxton shows up and proves he can play center field than he moves into the  core status player. Until then, he remains a number one pick that didn't pan out.

So you are comparing him to Johnson, Heilman, Moses, Plouffe, Perkins, Waldrop, fox, Rainville, Garza, Sanchez, Parmelee, Revere, Hick, Gutierrez, Hunt, Bashore, Wimmers, Michael, Harriosn, Boyd, Berrios, Bard, Stewart, Gordon, Jay, Kirilloff (1st round picks between 2000 - 2016) and I could go further back to the likes of Garbe, Mills, LeCroy, Cuddyer,  Redman, Miller, Walker, Mucker, Barcelo, Seranfini, Stahoviak, McCarty, Cumming (back to 1990),

Two players since then has more WAR Hunter and Mauer. I don't think two top 20 MVP's seasons count as somebody that didn't pan out, sure we all were hoping for a string of all star appearances and a future HOF but if that is what is considered panning out, well I think most first round picks don't pan out.

 

[USAFChief]

4 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

Johnny Ringo, anytime a guy can mix in a quote from *Indigo Montoya that's a thumbs up from me every time !!  

*Inigo. 

[Craig Arko]

I suppose if they win a championship together, then yes.

[Fatbat]

3 hours ago, DJL44 said:

His competitive nature is fine. The knee injury meant he couldn't load on his back leg. One of my favorite hitting coaches likes to say "a good load fixes a lot of flaws".

I’ve heard some females say the same thing.🤣🤣

[jjswol]

23 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So you are comparing him to Johnson, Heilman, Moses, Plouffe, Perkins, Waldrop, fox, Rainville, Garza, Sanchez, Parmelee, Revere, Hick, Gutierrez, Hunt, Bashore, Wimmers, Michael, Harriosn, Boyd, Berrios, Bard, Stewart, Gordon, Jay, Kirilloff (1st round picks between 2000 - 2016) and I could go further back to the likes of Garbe, Mills, LeCroy, Cuddyer,  Redman, Miller, Walker, Mucker, Barcelo, Seranfini, Stahoviak, McCarty, Cumming (back to 1990),

Two players since then has more WAR Hunter and Mauer. I don't think two top 20 MVP's seasons count as somebody that didn't pan out, sure we all were hoping for a string of all star appearances and a future HOF but if that is what is considered panning out, well I think most first round picks don't pan out.

 

You are not exactly comparing apples to apples here, all first round picks are not the same. A high first round pick like Buxton is expected to have a string of AS appearances in my book and I would expect is that he can play in at least 140 each season. Buxton has done neither and he will be 30 in a week. History indicates we shouldn't expect more than he has already shown us.