Astros 3, Twins 2: The Season is Over

[lunemann]

12 hours ago, D.C Twins said:

I am now officially all in on the robo-ump.

The ball/strike calls for the Twins in that game was an unadulterated S-Show! 

And make no mistake about it, when it became obvious to the Twins hitters that the Ump was incapable of calling close balls, they had to expand their zone for swinging/chasing. 

I very much wanted Rocco up and out EARLY confronting home umpire even if he was thrown out, because a statement HAD to be made. 

But I am D-O-N-E with umps calling balls/strikes... there is absolutely no need for it anymore. And the transition is not if but when.... so let's make that 'when' happen ASAP

 

According to Umpire Scorecards the home plate umpire favored the other team in all but one playoff game which was the game 3 drubbing. 

Game	Umpire	Fav	Outcome
WC Game 1	Andy Fletcher	1.46 runs for TOR	3-1 MIN
WC Game 2	Adam Hamari	0.96 runs for TOR	2-0 MIN
ALDS Game 1	Brian Knight	0.43 runs for HOU	6-4 HOU
ALDS Game 2	DJ Reyburn	0.77 runs for HOU	6-2 MIN
ALDS Game 3	Bill Miller	0.31 runs for MIN	9-1 HOU
ALDS Game 4	Jansen Visconti	0.48 runs for HOU	3-2 HOU

After this many years of getting hosed it's hard to not at least nibble on some conspiracy theories that MLB puts their finger on the scale to get their preferred matchups.

The moral of the story is that the Twins can't just be a little bit better. They need to be a LOT better than the big market teams to move farther into the playoffs.

[jmlease1]

2 hours ago, rv78 said:

This is a prime example of why this team won't ever win under this regime and Rocco. If MAT isn't good enough to take a crucial at bat then he shouldn't be on the team. Period. You play your best players in the playoffs. Pinch hitting Buxton in that situation was exactly that, A 100-1 shot. They would have had a better chance of scoring a run if MAT would have tried to bunt for a base hit to get on and then steal 2nd. No can do, that's not the way they play. Buxton swinging for the fences is the best option, even if MAT doing the same thing wasn't good enough. The glaring problem with this team has been there all season. They take poor at bats. Well, if the players aren't going to change their approach then you need to change the players. Doubt that is going to happen anytime soon. The FO will probably doubledown on the same stupid approach and sign another poor hitter that strikes out a ton again, just like they did with Gallo last off-season. No, they are NOT the smartest people in the room. And it shows.

So any player with a platoon split shouldn't be on this team? That's basically what you're saying here.

I'm baffled about the outrage for the supposed "insult" pinch hitting Byron Buxton for MAT somehow is. Buxton is a better hitter. MAT was a fine player for us this season and stepped up when we needed him to, but he's not a great hitter: he's only been above league average one season in his career, and that was 6 years ago. Even hurt, Buxton has produced more value at the plate this season. he's an elite talent than can change a game. MAT was 2-13 with 5 Ks and no xbhs in the playoffs, it's not like we pinch-hit for a guy who was crushing it.

And did you hear the crowd when Buxton came to the plate? It didn't work out, but it definitely put a charge into the whole place.

[Aggies7]

12 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

The Lynx won four (2011, 2013, 2015, and 2017). Gopher men's hockey won in 2002 and 2003 and the women have 7 championships in the last 25 years. They're equally as relevant to the Twins as the Vikings, Wild and Timberwolves are to the Twins.

They’re not equally as relevant stop it lol

[2wins87]

They won a wild-card series and went 3-3 in playoff games.  Obviously you have to be much better than that to win it all, but it is still good to see them at least holding their own in the playoffs.  To have this outcome after expectations in the preseason, or even the All-Star break, has to be considered a success.

However, I think it's totally fair to not be satisfied at this point.  They've now lost their last 7 ALDS rounds.  Getting a win against Houston is actually a bit of an accomplishment in itself, but I still want to see them eliminating the Astros or Yankees.  (Not sure the Yankees will be a powerhouse for a while now, but eliminating them in any form would still be sweet).

I think you have to recognize there were some big positives to take from the the postseason.  Julien was pretty fantastic in the ALDS and overall.  I think he could still make strides in being more consistent at doing damage on swings, but he stayed within himself as a player and it translated wonderfully to the postseason.  Lewis also showed that he has the immense talent to be a game changer.  He still needs to to work on being more patient and selective, but if he has a healthy season next year I'm excited for that.  Lopez also took the step forward into ace territory, very happy to have him on a relatively cheap extension.  The #2 spot is still up in the air for next year, but it looked like Paddack might be it next year.  Duran was great anchoring a mostly excellent bullpen.

There is some work to do on the roster.  Being the team that struck out the most got exposed in the postseason.  They could use a bit better balance in the lineup.  They could use another hitter like Julien, even with a little less power but maybe a bit more contact, to not let pitchers settle into a groove so easily.  They also just need a little more firepower in general.  I feel very confident in Julien and Lewis going forward.  I'm more uncertain about Correa (even with a couple of good games in the playoffs) and certainly Buxton.  I am bullish on Wallner, but he's always going to strike out a lot, and I'd like to write off Kirilloff's mediocre bat to injuries, but we still haven't really seen another level from him.

They couldn't match up with the top of Houston's lineup, and that will be tough to accomplish.  There's probably only one other guy as good as Alvarez out there, and we know he'll probably end up with the Dodgers, maybe the Giants or something, but not the Twins.  They were more deep than top heavy, but they also didn't match up with Philly, Atlanta, or Texas in terms of lineup depth.  Maybe the young core can make enough strides to make the lineup more scary, but I think they were just short buy at least one true and tested masher and a little more contact down the lineup.  That needs to be addressed in the offseason.

On the pitching, I think we finally saw the plan come together for the front office.  As fly ball pitchers, Ober and Ryan are great for the 3-5 spots in the regular season, but we saw what can happen against really good hitters.  Maybe one of them can take another step forward, but the pitching was never really the issue in the regular season or postseason.  They will need to find a replacement for Gray most likely, maybe there will be a decent groundball/strikeout guy that they can tweak available via trade.  There will also be a few spots to fill in the bullpen.  Hopefully they can be successful with another Brock Stewart type project, but the core of the bullpen is there, it'll just need a little supplementation around the edges.

I think we should be optimistic about the future of this team.  There are some clear areas for improvement, but there is a core in place that will hopefully gain a bunch more playoff experience soon.

[insagt1]

Ah, the what-ifs! Both teams hit 2 HR's yesterday.Unfortunately one of Houston's came with a man on; while one of Twins might have had one with a man on, had it not been for an opportunistic DP.

I would have pinch hit Buxton for Solano, who was having a bad game. Ironically, Buck was the only guy in the final 2 innings that didn't strike out...and he hit a weak pop out to the 1st baseman.

Thielbar didn't do his job. All the rest did.

Strikeouts this post season were the MAJOR culprit. Twins fanned a ton during the season but they elevated it to an art form in the playoffs. While Astro hitters hung tough with 2 strikes, Twins hitters just flat out failed. They never adjusted.

So, we can all applaud the progress the team made and I would agree. But we can also fine tune the critique where its needed. The strikeouts have to be cut down.

[DJL44]

16 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

They’re not equally as relevant stop it lol

They're equally relevant to the Twins, which is not at all. It's a random grouping of wholly unrelated sports teams.

[madtowntwin]

The Phillies, Rangers, and D-Backs are playing all around good to great baseball at the best possible time....The Playoffs. 

The Twins beat Toronto in the first series relying mainly on pitching and timely hitting with Lewis' performance initially and Correa's game 2. It was a slight return to seasonal median performance, but the Lopez / Gray combo overcame some typical offensive performance in terms of offensive numbers regarding hits with RISP, contact in general, and strikeouts. Over 162 games, it is difficult to overcome "They are who we that they were" phenomenon in the playoffs...

The Astros series was simply continuation of the above with a few exceptions. The Pablo / Sonny combo demonstrated a bit of disparity in that Lopez tantalized and dominated as an apparent Ace. Gray, unfortunately threw his worst game of the season with some credit to Houston hitters. Poor hitting with RISP lingered. The season long strikeout binge lengthened. Starting Ober may have been a mistake. Caleb still looked a bit wobbly after his injury. Bullpen overall was pretty strong. A dominant baseball team and annual threat to make the World Series stayed to last decade norm. The Twins generally stayed to seasonal form. 

The aforementioned Phillies, Rangers, and D-Backs have somehow flipped a team switch and are playing good playoff baseball in all facets of the game. More of a "Lightning In A Bottle" phenomenon. Yes, the Rangers looked great in the first half of the season but lost big divisional lead and were very beatable in the second half and were fortunate to make the playoffs. The marathon season left Philly and Arizona far back in their respective division to superior teams within that context. The present format of the MLB playoff format is more of sprint in initial series and a hot team can over perform and over achieve....The Twins weren't one of those teams this year. 

Personally, I eagerly await the rest of the playoffs to unfold. The 7 game series returns to more marathon format. These hot teams will meet head to head with only one winning longer series. The decade dominant Astros reign has obviously not ended. I look forward to how all this plays out. Last night was a gut punch.  I look forward to Minnesota's off season and 2024. Win Twins. 

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

They're equally relevant to the Twins, which is not at all. It's a random grouping of wholly unrelated sports teams.

It’s relevant if you’re a fan of any of those teams. Picking the 4 major sports franchises in the same metro area is hardly random

[David Maro]

Rocco's way of managing,Buxton wasn't PH hitting for a base hit. This team will go nowhere with him as manager. There was zero chance of winning with 3 hits and 14 strike outs. Yes umpire zone was not good,but I saw plenty of swings on pitches well out of the zone. I am old school and baseball can't be played by looking to hit homeruns only. The other thing that needs an answer is where was Vasquez. Jeffers looked over matched in every at bat. Why do you give someone 10 million a year and not play him. More changes than people think have to be made this off season. 

[DJL44]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

It’s relevant if you’re a fan of any of those teams. Picking the 4 major sports franchises in the same metro area is hardly random

It has nothing to do with the Twins. I'm exhausted with people being mad at the Twins because the Vikings suck.

If you wanted to watch a championship sports team play in Minnesota you had several to choose from in the last 20 years. It's not my fault you ignored the champions in order to follow the other teams.

[Patzky]

13 hours ago, GNess said:

Enjoyed the season and especially the emergence and development of some talented young players who knowing there are almost no sure things, hopefully will continue to progress.

I have been a Twins fan since 1966, and yes its been a long stretch without a World Series, but I see the WS as possible with a few key additions and the returning core, which have some excellent pieces Lopez, Duran, Correa, Lewis, Jeffers etc.

The spirit, will and grit were there for our Twins, but in the end the Astros are a proven winner and a tough out for sure.

Easier said than done, but the Twins need to add a true middle of the order bat, a legit SP and get Buxton back in the OF for at least 80-100 games. 

I look forward to sharing the off-season and all the back and forth with the Twins Daily Community. 

Win Twins!

I would just love for the Twins to Make a serious play for Eduardo Rodriguez, who likely won't be a Tiger next year. 

[Aggies7]

14 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

It has nothing to do with the Twins. I'm exhausted with people being mad at the Twins because the Vikings suck.

If you wanted to watch a championship sports team play in Minnesota you had several to choose from in the last 20 years. It's not my fault you ignored the champions in order to follow the other teams.

I’m not mad at the twins for the Vikings failures, I’m simply pointing out that the MSP metro area now has the longest championship drought by seasons of any city in the US or Canada. Twins are responsible for 1/4 of that drought. 118 seasons, that’s a lot of coming up short.
 

The lynx and gopher hockey are niche sports. You’re not being honest if you’re trying to claim they carry the same impact in general. 

[Sjoski]

Twins were out managed.  How fitting, Pressly polishes them off, another wasted trade, we get two AAA players in exchange for an All-Star, World Series winning , record setting closer.

A. J. Pierzynski  nailed in the broadcast....(after Rocco pulls Ryan)   "all it takes is for one guy in the bullpen to have a bad day and the game could be over".    What a call.

 

[DJL44]

6 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

The lynx and gopher hockey are niche sports.

Basketball and hockey are niche sports. Got it.

Some cities don't even have an opportunity to rack up 118 seasons. Many cities are either/or for NHL and NBA. Portland, Oregon only has the Blazers - is that better? Would you rather have 3 of those 4 teams leave town?

[SwainZag]

10 minutes ago, Sjoski said:

Twins were out managed.  How fitting, Pressly polishes them off, another wasted trade, we get two AAA players in exchange for an All-Star, World Series winning , record setting closer.

A. J. Pierzynski  nailed in the broadcast....(after Rocco pulls Ryan)   "all it takes is for one guy in the bullpen to have a bad day and the game could be over".    What a call.

 

How were they outmanaged?  The bullpen game worked, Houston scored 3 runs.  Twins offense scored 3 runs in 2 home games.  How is that being out managed? That is the bats not getting it done, especially when they had a lot of opportunities.

I don't get why so many people want to make Rocco the scapegoat.  The bats didn't get it done.  Hitting with RISP was abymsal and the reason they lost this series.

In the AJ quote goes the same way.  One Jose Abreu swing won the game, because the Twins couldn't match it.  If anyone honestly thinks that Joe Ryan would have went 8 innings of one run ball and the Twins would have won 2-1?  You gotta score to win games.  

[Aggies7]

30 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Basketball and hockey are niche sports. Got it.

Some cities don't even have an opportunity to rack up 118 seasons. Many cities are either/or for NHL and NBA. Portland, Oregon only has the Blazers - is that better? Would you rather have 3 of those 4 teams leave town?

Women’s basketball and college hockey are niche sports, cmon now be serious. The frozen four final got 800,000 viewers last year in prime time. the first round of the MLB playoffs averaged 2.25 million viewers last week with teams playing during work hours
 

Lol who wants teams to move? I just want one of them TO WIN. It’s not some outrageous expectation over 30+ years 😂

[Blyleven2011]

12 hours ago, MplsFan said:

Echoing a lot of what others have said here: I’m sad it’s over, but not really mad about it.  The better team won.  
 

I hope the front office realizes  the better team won and can add some pieces to make us better  ...

We had decent pitching in the playoffs , but hitting went south before winter even arrived ...

Some players need to go to driveline  and figure out how to identify pitches  to hit or layoff  , also have to re-teach them if its close with 2 strikes  you swing ...

[wabene]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

They’re not equally as relevant stop it lol

I disagree, they are all only relevant as entertainment, nothing more. There is no importance beyond a cultural one. Then it only comes down to preference. I know many people that could care less about sports, but could quote verbatim from Laverne and Shirley, lol.

I have 2 stepsons living under this roof. One dons a Hockenson jersey every Sunday living and dieing with the Vikings and the other has no interest at all but has watched every episode of the Office twice. Just a preference and personally I think it's great women's sports is receiving more attention and money. 

[Aggies7]

3 minutes ago, wabene said:

I disagree, they are all only relevant as entertainment, nothing more. There is no importance beyond a cultural one. Then it only comes down to preference. I know many people that could care less about sports, but could quote verbatim from Laverne and Shirley, lol.

I have 2 stepsons living under this roof. One dons a Hockenson jersey every Sunday living and dieing with the Vikings and the other has no interest at all but has watched every episode of the Office twice. Just a preference and personally I think it's great women's sports is receiving more attention and money. 

Right, but we’re talking about sports only. What kind of following do the lynx and men’s ice hockey have on a national level? Even on a regional level? I can’t imagine anyone thinking a lynx or gophers title would carry even remotely the same weight as a vikings Super Bowl or a twins World Series win. 

118 seasons is a long time to come up short. Heck, we haven’t even had a team PLAY for a title in that time frame. That’s bad bad bad. Especially when you consider the randomness of postseason play in baseball. Look what the 84 win dbacks are doing. You’d think we’d luck in to one at some point 

[Danchat]

42 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

How were they outmanaged?  The bullpen game worked, Houston scored 3 runs.  Twins offense scored 3 runs in 2 home games.  How is that being out managed? That is the bats not getting it done, especially when they had a lot of opportunities.

I don't get why so many people want to make Rocco the scapegoat.  The bats didn't get it done.  Hitting with RISP was abymsal and the reason they lost this series.

In the AJ quote goes the same way.  One Jose Abreu swing won the game, because the Twins couldn't match it.  If anyone honestly thinks that Joe Ryan would have went 8 innings of one run ball and the Twins would have won 2-1?  You gotta score to win games.  

Is it really any surprise that the lineup that set the all-time record for strikeouts in a season scuffled in the playoffs? There isn't a "stop striking out" button for Rocco to press. 

[Vanimal46]

18 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Right, but we’re talking about sports only. What kind of following do the lynx and men’s ice hockey have on a national level? Even on a regional level? I can’t imagine anyone thinking a lynx or gophers title would carry even remotely the same weight as a vikings Super Bowl or a twins World Series win. 

118 seasons is a long time to come up short. Heck, we haven’t even had a team PLAY for a title in that time frame. That’s bad bad bad. Especially when you consider the randomness of postseason play in baseball. Look what the 84 win dbacks are doing. You’d think we’d luck in to one at some point 

Have no fear. When Minnesota gets an expansion team in the National Pickleball Association and wins it all in 2040, all will be forgotten. They will unite every MN sports fan young and old. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

I'm baffled about the outrage for the supposed "insult" pinch hitting Byron Buxton for MAT somehow is.

it’s not really outrage, though. I’m not sure what the right word is. it’s almost like they were going for the Disney movie ending or something. Hat/Tip to Kris Atteberry after the game for the Disney reference.  

I’m coming up with a bunch of football metaphors. I already mentioned pinch hitting Buxton there as a Hail Mary pass when a Hail Mary was not needed. They just needed to keep the drive going.

Here’s another one: the Buxton at bat last night was kind of like the Joe Webb playoff appearance against the Packers. Fans were cautiously optimistic, and everything looked good on that first drive, Webb marching them down the field on running plays, until it got to third down and Webb actually had to throw a pass. (Spoiler: the pass was terrible). In other words. Everything about the Buxton at bat last night felt really good, until Buxton actually had to swing the bat. Which he was in no shape to do against that level of competition in that moment. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The Buxton at bat was a feel good moment, for sure.

Abreu threw Buxton three fastballs. When the Houston pitching coach went out there, it was to talk about Buxton. Buxton obviously had not been part of Houston’s game planning at all to that point in the series.

It sure seems like the advice to Abreu and Maldonado was to just throw heat and stay around the edges. Not to get fancy and risk hanging an off speed pitch Buxton might be able to get around on. 

[Jocko87]

4 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Sure, but Rocco should really be focusing on baseball moves at that point. 

Sending Buxton up to bat was the equivalent of a Hail Mary pass, when all that was needed was just one run, or even just a baserunner. Buxton would have been better used as a pinch runner at some point, in that sense. Leaving Taylor to bat would have been a much better option. Only Kepler hit more home runs than Taylor this season. Or if this was all about removing Taylor, then use Wallner as the pinch hitter. 

I really hope there is room for disagreement about this! 

Certainly, I think as a baseball move it was 50/50.  Sure Buxton wasn't in form but MAT is career 50 points lower OPS against power pitchers and 50 points lower in high leverage.  Basically full season Vazquez.  He had a fantastic season to expectations but also hits 9 for a reason.  I do think with a runner on they would have left Taylor in to bunt.

When you add the emotional bump to the game, crowd pop etc plus long term good will there is almost no other choice.  Even a walk there blows the roof off the place.  A big hit brings the type of energy that lasts a couple weeks.

The mound visit wasn't about how to approach Buxton, Abreu knew exactly what to do.  It was part to let the crowd die down since that much excitement is hard to maintain and part to let Buck get his ovation.  Very savvy and classy moves by Dusty.

[saviking]

14 hours ago, MMMordabito said:

At least the Wild start tomorrow.

When asked why he pulled Ryan out after 2 innings I thought he was going to say: I learned that frim Toranto's coach.  

[PDX Twin]

Fourteen strikeouts and ZERO singles!

1. Lucky to be in the game at the end.
2. Unwatchable!!!

Twins playing HR derby again instead of baseball.

[specialiststeve]

Was at the game... Ryan had very good stuff . Thought maybe he was hurt. He should have been left in .... 

Led eventually to Thielbar coming in and having Abreau hit the home run While Paddock was warmed up and ready to go. CAN'T HAPPEN!! 

Baldelli's mismanagement of the pitching staff over the rear likely cost us minimum of 5 games and likely closer to 10.... 

This one might have cost us a chance to go to game 5. 

Argh!! 

 

Ar

[rv78]

5 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

So any player with a platoon split shouldn't be on this team? That's basically what you're saying here.

I'm baffled about the outrage for the supposed "insult" pinch hitting Byron Buxton for MAT somehow is. Buxton is a better hitter. MAT was a fine player for us this season and stepped up when we needed him to, but he's not a great hitter: he's only been above league average one season in his career, and that was 6 years ago. Even hurt, Buxton has produced more value at the plate this season. he's an elite talent than can change a game. MAT was 2-13 with 5 Ks and no xbhs in the playoffs, it's not like we pinch-hit for a guy who was crushing it.

And did you hear the crowd when Buxton came to the plate? It didn't work out, but it definitely put a charge into the whole place.

Taylors career batting average is .239. Buxtons career batting average is .239. This year Taylor hit ,220. Buxton hit .207. Taylor had 21 HRs in 388 PA, Buxton had 17 HRs in 347 PA. I fail to see the better hitter being Buxton. An argument can be made they are pretty much equal. So why bring in a guy who hasn't faced a major league pitcher since August 1 ? So MAT was 2 for 13. That's 2 more hits than Buxton had. Bringing in a "cold" player for a crucial at bat, which most all at bats in the playoffs are, especially in a tight 1 run ballgame, is pure stupidity. 

[awmonahan]

I know the Twins eta if hitting the other way got worn out, b7t I wouldn't mind someone beyond Julien, Polo, or Solano considering it.

Great season. Bright future. Still feeling some pain from last night.

[jmlease1]

30 minutes ago, rv78 said:

Taylors career batting average is .239. Buxtons career batting average is .239. This year Taylor hit ,220. Buxton hit .207. Taylor had 21 HRs in 388 PA, Buxton had 17 HRs in 347 PA. I fail to see the better hitter being Buxton. An argument can be made they are pretty much equal. So why bring in a guy who hasn't faced a major league pitcher since August 1 ? So MAT was 2 for 13. That's 2 more hits than Buxton had. Bringing in a "cold" player for a crucial at bat, which most all at bats in the playoffs are, especially in a tight 1 run ballgame, is pure stupidity. 

Kirk Gibson would like a word. :P

An argument can be made the MAT and Byron Buxton are pretty much equal, but I don't think it's a very good one, and certainly not a good enough one to unequivocally call the move "stupidity". the only way to make them equal as hitters is to ignore everything except this season. Where during the grind of a long season and battling injuries, Byron Buxton had one of his worst seasons as a pro...but notably was excellent out the gate before trying to grind through it eventually made him unplayable for full games. This season was Michael A. Taylor's 2nd best in his whole career as a hitter, and it ended up being roughly comparable to one of Buxton's worst. Buxton has a career OPS+ of 106, MAT is at 83. Prior to this season Buxton had 4 straight seasons with an OPS+ of 115 or better. MAT has never had an OPS+ over 105. he's only been over 100 (league average) once.

Maybe on Oct 11th MAT was a better hitter than Byron Buxton because he'd been facing live, opposing MLB pitching for the past several weeks, but during the playoffs he was 2-13 with 5 Ks and no BBs, no XBHs, and hit into a DP. He struggled at the plate.

based on pure talent level and sheer ability to hit a baseball...not a bad case to give Buxton a shot, and it lit up the stadium. It didn't work out, but there's little evidence MAT would have done better.