Twins 8, Astros 2: Bats Erupt, Varland Throws a Gem, Twins Win the Series

[Mark G]

47 minutes ago, wabene said:

You are entitled to that opinion and it is shared by many. 

My questions:

What is the fascination of pushing pitchers to their absolute limit at every opportunity? 

Does this make any sense to do this in an era with such frequent pitcher injuries? 

In a game like this with a lead like that, I would argue that is the exact time to ease up on your valuable young starter. 

The answers would be:  No one wants to push a pitcher to their absolute limit; but 86 pitches should never be a starters limit.  And the theory is that the frequent injuries are as much from not being stretched out as it is from over taxing them.  And in a game like this, it is a perfect opportunity to stretch out a young starter a little further, and at the same time see what his stuff is like during a possible 4th time through a lineup.  

It wasn't THAT long ago that there were 10 man pitching staffs and 4 man rotations.  When 5 man rotations and 13 man staffs can't hold up because the starters aren't stretched out, and the bullpens are overused as a result, allowing young, healthy starters to carry their own load shouldn't be such a controversial thought.  But, then, what fun would it be to talk about such things if we all agreed with me?  😉

[wabene]

9 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

Is their a trend of players pitching at least 7 innings or 100+ pitches hitting the injury list the next day?

Pitchers are getting injured more and throwing as hard as they can. Since this is different than in the past wouldn't it follow that they might be able to pitch less innings? 

[MABB1959]

1 minute ago, wabene said:

Pitchers are getting injured more and throwing as hard as they can. Since this is different than in the past wouldn't it follow that they might be able to pitch less innings? 

To be honest I don't know but taking a pitcher on a roll out of the game before the 7th inning is ridiculous.  I guessing their is a statistic out their that show often injured pitchers with average innings played and number of pitches thrown.   I think the player should decide how they are feeling at the time.  If they say good to go for heavens sake let them go.  I think Rocco panics too soon and doesn't give our great starters a chance to get out of a jam. 

[wabene]

6 minutes ago, Mark G said:

The answers would be:  No one wants to push a pitcher to their absolute limit; but 86 pitches should never be a starters limit.  And the theory is that the frequent injuries are as much from not being stretched out as it is from over taxing them.  And in a game like this, it is a perfect opportunity to stretch out a young starter a little further, and at the same time see what his stuff is like during a possible 4th time through a lineup.  

It wasn't THAT long ago that there were 10 man pitching staffs and 4 man rotations.  When 5 man rotations and 13 man staffs can't hold up because the starters aren't stretched out, and the bullpens are overused as a result, allowing young, healthy starters to carry their own load shouldn't be such a controversial thought.  But, then, what fun would it be to talk about such things if we all agreed with me?  😉

Another inning could very well be 20 pitches which would be 106 and I'm guessing that would be over the rookie's limit. Why the need to go to the limit when you have low leverage innings available for your pen?

Back then were guys pumping 98mph fastballs like Louie? If the Louie Varland we saw last night was throwing 88, he may have fell asleep out there, lol.

Look I thought they were going to send him out for the 8th. My point is I don't care that they didn't, all I care about is they win the game, and we get a full season, plus playoffs, of a healthy, successful Louie Varland. How we get there doesn't matter to me one bit, just like shut outs and complete games etc., Those things are not wins. 

[Puckett34]

6 hours ago, MABB1959 said:

To be honest I don't know but taking a pitcher on a roll out of the game before the 7th inning is ridiculous.  I guessing their is a statistic out their that show often injured pitchers with average innings played and number of pitches thrown.   I think the player should decide how they are feeling at the time.  If they say good to go for heavens sake let them go.  I think Rocco panics too soon and doesn't give our great starters a chance to get out of a jam. 

Louie Varland is 25 years old and has never pitched more than 126 (edit 152.1) innings in a season in his professional career (majors or minors).  It was also game 56 of 162 on May 31st.  That's why you take Varland out in a 7-0 ball game.

Of course if you left it up to Varland, he probably pitches until the game is over or his arm falls off.  That's why you also take the decision out of his hands.

[wabene]

Anyway, my bad for derailing this discussion.

This was finally a fun game to watch mainly because of the at bats (and of course Louie V). It was getting so hard to watch our highest paid players slinking back to the dugout. I would like to see this approach continue and yes find a way to get Wallner back up. Ride the hot hand for crying out loud. 

[TwinsDr2021]

26 minutes ago, Puckett34 said:

Louie Varland is 25 years old and has never pitched more than 126 innings in a season in his professional career (majors or minors).  It was also game 56 of 162 on May 31st.  That's why you take Varland out in a 7-0 ball game.

Of course if you left it up to Varland, he probably pitches until the game is over or his arm falls off.  That's why you also take the decision out of his hands.

Interesting, I believe last year he pitched 26 for the Twins, 21.1 for the Saints and 105 for Wichita. Not sure about that math, but it doesn't add up to 126.

 

Edit - He is at 56 right now, so basically a third, so if he keeps this pace he would be at 168, seems like the natural progression.

21 - 103

22 - 152.1

23 - 168

Edit #2 - Of his 7 starts this was his second lowest pitch count. (I am not upset they took him out, just would have liked to see him pitch another inning)

 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, William K Johnson said:

Enough of the Julien experiment at this time.

Polanco was announced as returning to the roster last night with Julien returning to the Saints. Julien was fine but I believe Polanco remains the best player on the team and will provide a lift in all ways, shapes, and forms to the Twins and their fans.

[Linus]

As I’ve posted before I love the way Barland attacks the zone. I hope several other Twins pitchers are taking notes. Castro is really carving out a spot on this club. What an arm that kid has.   Speaking of arms one who doesn’t have one is Julien. He has been a nice story but he is a dh and I doubt he produces enough with the bat to be a dh. Trade bait. 

[TwinsDr2021]

12 minutes ago, wabene said:

Another inning could very well be 20 pitches which would be 106 and I'm guessing that would be over the rookie's limit. Why the need to go to the limit when you have low leverage innings available for your pen?

Back then were guys pumping 98mph fastballs like Louie? If the Louie Varland we saw last night was throwing 88, he may have fell asleep out there, lol.

Look I thought they were going to send him out for the 8th. My point is I don't care that they didn't, all I care about is they win the game, and we get a full season, plus playoffs, of a healthy, successful Louie Varland. How we get there doesn't matter to me one bit, just like shut outs and complete games etc., Those things are not wins. 

The problem with that logic it could have been 3 pitches and he is still at 90. But I do get the logic that if they bring him out for the 8th and he sitting at 100 or just under 100 after you almost have to let him try to get the shut out.

[MABB1959]

6 minutes ago, Puckett34 said:

Louie Varland is 25 years old and has never pitched more than 126 innings in a season in his professional career (majors or minors).  It was also game 56 of 162 on May 31st.  That's why you take Varland out in a 7-0 ball game.

Of course if you left it up to Varland, he probably pitches until the game is over or his arm falls off.  That's why you also take the decision out of his hands.

I could agree but I don't think the coaching staff has a clue

[MABB1959]

1 hour ago, wabene said:

You are entitled to that opinion and it is shared by many. 

My questions:

What is the fascination of pushing pitchers to their absolute limit at every opportunity? 

Does this make any sense to do this in an era with such frequent pitcher injuries? 

In a game like this with a lead like that, I would argue that is the exact time to ease up on your valuable young starter. 

For me it is not a fascination of pushing but more a chance of winning the game. Going to the Twins bullpen is often a disaster.  

[Dman]

Stewart has been great for the pen.  Coming in with two on he strikes out the next three guys.  That is some good stuff.  Not sure what is wrong with Lopez but can't see him in high leverage until he figures it out.  Would have been nice if a few more of his changeups went for strikes.  He also has trouble getting guys to strike three.  His stuff is generally tough to square up although he has been giving out homers like crazy this year.  Have to believe the pitching coaches need to get with him and form a better plan.

At any rate a much needed win for the month of May.  If the Twins can take the Cleveland series they should be in solid shape to start the month of June.

[wabene]

11 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Interesting, I believe last year he pitched 26 for the Twins, 21.1 for the Saints and 105 for Wichita. Not sure about that math, but it doesn't add up to 126.

 

Edit - He is at 56 right now, so basically a third, so if he keeps this pace he would be at 168, seems like the natural progression.

21 - 103

22 - 152.1

23 - 168

 

Oh so you want to keep this pace. That must mean your on board with him being pulled after 7 😉

[Puckett34]

19 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Interesting, I believe last year he pitched 26 for the Twins, 21.1 for the Saints and 105 for Wichita. Not sure about that math, but it doesn't add up to 126.

 

Edit - He is at 56 right now, so basically a third, so if he keeps this pace he would be at 168, seems like the natural progression.

21 - 103

22 - 152.1

23 - 168

 

Just glanced at the baseball reference, I probably misread.   

 

Edit, or just forgot to add in his MLB innings from last year

[wabene]

13 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

For me it is not a fascination of pushing but more a chance of winning the game. Going to the Twins bullpen is often a disaster.  

They were up 8-0

[Guest]

 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

2 hours ago, William K Johnson said:

Enough of the Julien experiment at this time.  Send him back across the river, put Farmer at second until Polanco returns.  Also, how much longer until Wallner supplants either Kepler or Gallo?  Did anyone miss Correa and/or Buxton in the lineup last night?   Finally, is Willi Castro the Twins MVP through the first third of the season?

Willi Castro...MVP. I like the way he plays baseball.

[JDubs]

2 hours ago, bighat said:

5 of the first 6 Twins outs came via strikeout, which is just something that can't continue to happen. 

An out is an out and it doesn't matter how it happens. Sure, sometimes a K is worse than other outs (dude on 3rd, less than 2 outs), but sometimes it's much better than other outs (a double play is much worse than a strike out). What would have been different about this game if the first 3 ABs ended in groundouts to short instead of strike outs?

[tarheeltwinsfan]

35 minutes ago, Dman said:

Stewart has been great for the pen.  Coming in with two on he strikes out the next three guys.  That is some good stuff.  Not sure what is wrong with Lopez but can't see him in high leverage until he figures it out.  Would have been nice if a few more of his changeups went for strikes.  He also has trouble getting guys to strike three.  His stuff is generally tough to square up although he has been giving out homers like crazy this year.  Have to believe the pitching coaches need to get with him and form a better plan.

At any rate a much needed win for the month of May.  If the Twins can take the Cleveland series they should be in solid shape to start the month of June.

Both of the J. Lopez homer pitchers were squarely in the middle of the strike zone. Lopez needs to talk to Sonny Gray about nibbling the edges and pitching high and low, in and out, without walking anyone. 

[John Belinski]

 WOW Rocco finally took Correa out of 3 spot and the game. It is so sad that our 2 $100 million players can not produce and we win with them on the bench.  If Correa would have come up to bat with bases loaded he would have hit into a double play. Maybe Rocco will finally move him down in the lineup. I was wondering how long Rocco would leave Lopez in the game last night. One of the worse outings ever by Minnesota RP. Hope we do not use him for any close games. He makes Pagan look good.

[Dman]

1 minute ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Both of the J. Lopez homer pitchers were squarely in the middle of the strike zone. Lopez needs to talk to Sonny Gray about nibbling the edges and pitching high and low, in and out, without walking anyone. 

Yeah I don't get that.  Also those pitches down the middle don't seem to have a ton of movement.  He seems to be banking on the fact they will not be able to square that pitch up but it isn't working.  He was swing and miss on the edges or called strikes but at least one batter I saw just kept fouling them off until be went to the middle yet again for single.  There has to be a better approach.

[UK Twin]

I love that our highest starter's ERA (not including Mahle and Maeda) is 4.11 and that is Lopez! And he should get that below 4 soon enough. After the debacles in recent seasons of Bundy, Archer, Happ, Shoemaker and going further back the likes of Nolasco and Worley it's great to see we have 5 SP's who produce quality starts far more often than not. Last year Cleveland's rotation was way ahead of ours but not now. 

[dex8425]

10 hours ago, twins_89 said:

I really hope that no one in the Twins organization is considering putting Maeda back in the rotation.

Especially with the current state of the bullpen. There's one guy we all trust in the pen currently. 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Mark G said:

It wasn't THAT long ago that there were 10 man pitching staffs and 4 man rotations. 

It was so long ago that none of the current Twins were alive at the time including the manager.

[dex8425]

2 hours ago, wsnydes said:

I imagine that the idea was that Lopez wouldn't get shelled and would be able finish out the game.  It's not like Pagan was guaranteed to get through the rest of the game either.  But yes, that would have been another option.  Not the one I would choose, but not one I'd have been upset with either.

At least it was Stewart that was burned up and not one of the better relievers.  Stewart can be sent down for a fresh arm.

Stewart is out of options. He can't be sent down. Also, Beef Stew currently is one of the better relievers. In the current hierarchy, he's after Duran, which is not great...

[Mark G]

39 minutes ago, JDubs said:

An out is an out and it doesn't matter how it happens. Sure, sometimes a K is worse than other outs (dude on 3rd, less than 2 outs), but sometimes it's much better than other outs (a double play is much worse than a strike out). What would have been different about this game if the first 3 ABs ended in groundouts to short instead of strike outs?

I agree an out is an out, but I would submit it does matter how it happens.  Putting the ball in play makes the defense make a play, runners on or bases empty.  Simply making the catcher hold onto strike 3 is not putting any pressure on the defense.  Errors are made often enough that I would prefer they make the defense work just as hard as the pitcher.

I do hate double plays, though.  😉

[wsnydes]

4 minutes ago, dex8425 said:

Stewart is out of options. He can't be sent down. Also, Beef Stew currently is one of the better relievers. In the current hierarchy, he's after Duran, which is not great...

I was thinking he had an option left, but you do appear to be correct.  Either way, there are other arms that can be sent down for a fresh arm in the bullpen and its still easier to do that than sending down a starter.

I guess that I don't put Stewart that high up in the hierarchy given his streakiness.  But you're certainly welcome too.  But you're right, that's probably just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic when it comes to one other than Duran.

[jmlease1]

5 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

It was so long ago that none of the current Twins were alive at the time including the manager.

Rocco sneaks in (he's over 40 and the early 80's still had teams that arguably had 4-man rotations and 10 pitchers on the active roster; look at the 1982 Orioles for an example) but by the mid-80's you're right that concept had gone away, along with the idea of using your best reliever as a fireman, and multi-inning relievers who weren't the mop-up guy. It's been a long, long time and certainly none of our players were alive for when the 4-man rotation was a significant thing.

[Squirrel]

3 hours ago, William K Johnson said:

Enough of the Julien experiment at this time.  Send him back across the river, put Farmer at second until Polanco returns.  Also, how much longer until Wallner supplants either Kepler or Gallo?  Did anyone miss Correa and/or Buxton in the lineup last night?   Finally, is Willi Castro the Twins MVP through the first third of the season?

It’s been done already. Polanco has been activated, Julien sent back to the Saints, as was reported last night after the game.