Twins 8, Astros 2: Bats Erupt, Varland Throws a Gem, Twins Win the Series

[Squirrel]

3 hours ago, wabene said:

You are entitled to that opinion and it is shared by many. 

My questions:

What is the fascination of pushing pitchers to their absolute limit at every opportunity? 

Does this make any sense to do this in an era with such frequent pitcher injuries? 

In a game like this with a lead like that, I would argue that is the exact time to ease up on your valuable young starter. 

People want to see pitchers pitch complete games, because, well, yesteryear baseball was better. That’s largely how I hear it … it’s for personal want and entertainment and has nothing to do with health and ability of the pitcher

[DJL44]

18 minutes ago, Mark G said:

Errors are made often enough that I would prefer they make the defense work just as hard as the pitcher.

The defense is a lot more likely to make an error when the batter hits the ball really, really hard. Nobody chokes up and tries to make weak contact with 2 strikes anymore because it is a bad idea.

[big dog]

10 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

I was busy tonight, so unable to follow along. Apparently the sky didn’t fall. I can’t wait to skim through the Game Thread for the several pages of grumbling about the getaway day lineup. 

I liked last nights lineup at the time. I like it even better now. Wallner in the outfield  would be even better IMO. 

[Squirrel]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

He was averaging 12 pitchers per inning, if he goes one more he is still under 100 pitches. Is that the absolute limit? if so that is sad, the other starter threw 102.

But for what purpose? Just so he can pitch a complete game? Why did he need to pitch more? Just because? Personally, I thought he could have pitched another inning, but was okay he didn’t. Last year everyone complained to see pitchers only go 4 or 5, now that our starters are routinely going 6 or 7, and on occasion, 8, it’s a problem. With the way pitchers pitch today with the velocity they average, I think it’s wise to pull them when they do.

[Schmoeman5]

3 hours ago, wabene said:

You are entitled to that opinion and it is shared by many. 

My questions:

What is the fascination of pushing pitchers to their absolute limit at every opportunity? 

Does this make any sense to do this in an era with such frequent pitcher injuries? 

In a game like this with a lead like that, I would argue that is the exact time to ease up on your valuable young starter. 

I wouldn't call it a fascination to extend starters to their limits. What is Varlands limit? 100 pitches? He wasn't there yet. So why not let him start the 8th? The bullpen used 3 guys for the final 2 innings. The bullpen btw is the reason the Twins aren't 10 or more games over .500. Not the lineup. I have more confidence in the lineup and hitting than I do in the bullpen

[David Maro]

Varland showed everyone how to challenge hitters last night. If you throw strikes the hitters have to swing the bat. With the game in hand why not take him out after 7 and save him for later. Maybe that is why Ryan had a bad outing,he has been over 100 pitches his last 2 starts. As I stated before Castro needs to be in the lineup until farther notice. He plays baseball,something most on this team don't. How much longer do we have to watch Joey Strike Out in the lineup. Put him on the bench and the strike out total goes down by 3 or 4. Lopez needs to go see a Sports Physician to get his head right. If a umpire doesn't give him a call he loses it and grooves the next pitch. This Series with Cleveland is going to be a very important one for the Twins. They need to go 3-1 to show they are better than most of us think.

[IndianaTwin]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but I'm guessing a factor in the decision to pull Varland is that his last four starts had 95, 97, 92 and (last Friday) 100 pitches. Thus, I don't think the "Let's see if he can handle another inning" holds much weight -- he's already shown he can. 

So, the choices were essentially, "He can handle it, so let's let him go another inning" or "He's thrown a lot of pitches lately, so let's give him a blow."

They chose the latter. I agree with that approach, particularly given that he gets Tampa Bay next.

[IndianaTwin]

11 hours ago, SwainZag said:

I think you are probably pretty spot on.  If he comes back and struggles, THEN I can see him moving to the pen.  I don't think giving any one of our starters an extra day rest at this point in the season is a bad idea either.

And the reality is that they only use Maeda twice in the 16 game stretch. If he doesn't throw well, it's an easy demotion to the pen. If a starter (including him) gets injured, it's an easy shift back to a five-man rotation. If all stay healthy and none get hurt, awesome! That's a good problem to have.

[stringer bell]

25 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

I wouldn't call it a fascination to extend starters to their limits. What is Varlands limit? 100 pitches? He wasn't there yet. So why not let him start the 8th? The bullpen used 3 guys for the final 2 innings. The bullpen btw is the reason the Twins aren't 10 or more games over .500. Not the lineup. I have more confidence in the lineup and hitting than I do in the bullpen

López, Stewart and De León all threw 16 pitches last night. I think all three would be on board to pitch today if needed, but Pagán, Moran, Jax would be preferred to pitch today. Of course, if any of the three that pitched yesterday, it is a near certainty that they are out for Friday. In my view, it wasn't optimum that three pitchers were used, but it was necessitated by the López meltdown. Another seven inning start today by Pablo López and finished by Pagán and Moran (or Jax) would be optimum. 

I do agree that the BP has cost the Twins games, coupled with the inconsistency of the offense. It was pointed out in a broadcast in Houston, that the Twins had gotten a lot of small leads but didn't add on and put considerable pressure on the BP. So, in my estimation, the avoidable losses have been a team effort.

 

[TwinsDr2021]

48 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

But for what purpose? Just so he can pitch a complete game? Why did he need to pitch more? Just because? Personally, I thought he could have pitched another inning, but was okay he didn’t. Last year everyone complained to see pitchers only go 4 or 5, now that our starters are routinely going 6 or 7, and on occasion, 8, it’s a problem. With the way pitchers pitch today with the velocity they average, I think it’s wise to pull them when they do.

So why bring him out for the 7th? It was already 7 - 0, why did he need to pitch more?Just because? or the plan was to get a big lead and Lopez come in a low stressful situation?

The main reason I want starters to go longer is because that is less innings for a not so great bullpen and in this case they ended up using arguably two of their top 3 relief pitchers in a 8 - 0 game.  I really am fine they pulled him, but wouldn't it make more sense to use Pagan or De Leon and back them ? since most would consider them in the bottom three relief pitchers and had only pitched once in the previous 4 days. Because it looks like today they have Pagan, Moran, and Jax available (with Duran at the end)

Maybe the thought is Lopez goes deep today and it doesn't matter, but his last 4 starts have been 5.2, 6, 4.2, 6.1. Which tells me the odds are probably really good they are going to need three innings tonight, and maybe that is Moran and Jax with Duran finishing up, but if either of them two get in trouble, Pagan is probably next man up, and I never want to be in that situation.

[IndianaTwin]

3 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

I think you've got this backwards. 28 games in 30 days isn't where you need an additional starter unless we end up with a double-header. It's the bullpen where we could get overstretched, especially if we get a couple of short starts. And adding a starter to the roster means one less reliever (remember, we're capped at 13 pitchers now). Maeda makes much more sense in relief right now, especially if as a former starter he could consistently take 2 innings every three days....

That's a valid critique of the six-man rotation. I assume that going that route also includes Toby Gardenhire having several St. Paul Shuttle tickets on hand and clear instructions on which relievers to not be using.  

And as I just mentioned in a previous comment, the reality is that a six-man rotation depends on health (and performance), and they really only need to do it twice to get the benefit. After that, with off days, a six-man rotation is pitching once a week. so I assume they don't want to do that long-term. More importantly, I assume they won't need to, because someone will get hurt. For the reason you note, I don't think a six-man rotation is viable for the long term, but in this case, I think it merits consideration.

For those keeping score at home, if they want to use the June 12 off day to give everyone five days off heading into that 16-game stretch, Maeda gets activated on the 18th. 

[Squirrel]

3 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So why bring him out for the 7th? It was already 7 - 0, why did he need to pitch more?Just because? or the plan was to get a big lead and Lopez come in a low stressful situation?

The main reason I want starters to go longer is because that is less innings for a not so great bullpen and in this case they ended up using arguably two of their top 3 relief pitchers in a 8 - 0 game.  I really am fine they pulled him, but wouldn't it make more sense to use Pagan or De Leon and back them ? since most would consider them in the bottom three relief pitchers and had only pitched once in the previous 4 days. Because it looks like today they have Pagan, Moran, and Jax available (with Duran at the end)

Maybe the thought is Lopez goes deep today and it doesn't matter, but his last 4 starts have been 5.2, 6, 4.2, 6.1. Which tells me the odds are probably really good they are going to need three innings tonight, and maybe that is Moran and Jax with Duran finishing up, but if either of them two get in trouble, Pagan is probably next man up, and I never want to be in that situation.

I do agree that our BP has some questionable arms, but, it was 8-0. That's a good point to give a questionable BP some work, and not push your starter further because you need that starter to go as long or more the next time up. There just was no purpose to do that last night, imo.

[TwinsDr2021]

10 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

López, Stewart and De León all threw 16 pitches last night. I think all three would be on board to pitch today if needed,

If Lopex or Stewart pitch today that would be 4 of the last 6 days, that seems excessive. De Leon would be 3 of 5 having pitched 43 pitches. IMO none should be used tonight and them being needed is probably a really, really bad thing. Since Jax, Moran, Pagan and Duran should be available for at least an inning a piece. I just don't agree with using Stewart and Lopez in a 8 - 0, or 8 -2 with guys on.

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So why bring him out for the 7th? It was already 7 - 0, why did he need to pitch more?Just because? or the plan was to get a big lead and Lopez come in a low stressful situation?

The main reason I want starters to go longer is because that is less innings for a not so great bullpen and in this case they ended up using arguably two of their top 3 relief pitchers in a 8 - 0 game.  I really am fine they pulled him, but wouldn't it make more sense to use Pagan or De Leon and back them ? since most would consider them in the bottom three relief pitchers and had only pitched once in the previous 4 days. Because it looks like today they have Pagan, Moran, and Jax available (with Duran at the end)

Maybe the thought is Lopez goes deep today and it doesn't matter, but his last 4 starts have been 5.2, 6, 4.2, 6.1. Which tells me the odds are probably really good they are going to need three innings tonight, and maybe that is Moran and Jax with Duran finishing up, but if either of them two get in trouble, Pagan is probably next man up, and I never want to be in that situation.

I'd guess the thought was 100% getting Lopez into a low leverage situation, against a good team, and letting him get his head right, and his groove back. Didn't work.

I don't think any of the relievers who threw last night are off the table tonight. Lopez threw 16 pitches. Stewart 13, De Leon 16. They should all absolutely be able to throw again tonight if they're the best option. The entire bullpen should be available tonight.

[TwinsDr2021]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't think any of the relievers who threw last night are off the table tonight. Lopez threw 16 pitches. Stewart 13, De Leon 16. They should all absolutely be able to throw again tonight if they're the best option. The entire bullpen should be available tonight.

Maybe they can pitch tonight but they are basically done until Sunday and that seems like a bad plan.

[Mark G]

5 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

But for what purpose? Just so he can pitch a complete game? Why did he need to pitch more? Just because? Personally, I thought he could have pitched another inning, but was okay he didn’t. Last year everyone complained to see pitchers only go 4 or 5, now that our starters are routinely going 6 or 7, and on occasion, 8, it’s a problem. With the way pitchers pitch today with the velocity they average, I think it’s wise to pull them when they do.

The purpose isn't the complete game per se, just to wrack up a stat, it is to stretch out your starters slowly as the season goes along.  Otherwise, what happened last year (and who knows how often before that) continues; the pen is over used and fades as the season gets toward the end.  

When 100 pitches (or right around there) every 5 or 6 days (depending on days off) is more than a major league starting pitcher can handle, then they need to stop pitching the way pitchers pitch today.  It doesn't win any more games than pitchers ever did, and clearly does blow out more arms than we would like.  

It is a debate that cannot be won, because we are both right in our own minds, and in our own ways of looking at the game.  And when I say we, I mean all of us on each end of the debate.  Having watched the game for 55 plus years, I feel comfortable in saying there simply are not 150 plus quality major league starting pitchers.  There are too many AAAA pitchers pitching at the major league level that never did before, and it show.  There are also not 240 plus major league relievers that should be on a major league roster.  And behind them are AAA players that have to be used as injuries happen.  Is it just possible that is why there were 10 man staffs for the better part of a century?  😏

[Riverbrian]

6 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I do agree that our BP has some questionable arms, but, it was 8-0. That's a good point to give a questionable BP some work, and not push your starter further because you need that starter to go as long or more the next time up. There just was no purpose to do that last night, imo.

Agreed

Bullpen needed some breathing room. They have been pitching with no margin of error for too long. 

I don't understand the debate here.

It was 8 Zip.

Pull Varland and save bullets for his next start.

On the other side Baker pulled Tucker and Maldonado to get them off their feet.

  

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Maybe they can pitch tonight but they are basically done until Sunday and that seems like a bad plan.

I mean it wouldn't be all 3 of them pitching again tonight. It'd most likely just be 1 of them, right? During a 162 game season there's almost always 1 reliever who isn't available unless you're coming off an off day. If they can't survive with 1 of those guys being unavailable Friday and Saturday they're in serious trouble.

[Squirrel]

3 minutes ago, Mark G said:

The purpose isn't the complete game per se, just to wrack up a stat, it is to stretch out your starters slowly as the season goes along.  Otherwise, what happened last year (and who knows how often before that) continues; the pen is over used and fades as the season gets toward the end.  

When 100 pitches (or right around there) every 5 or 6 days (depending on days off) is more than a major league starting pitcher can handle, then they need to stop pitching the way pitchers pitch today.  It doesn't win any more games than pitchers ever did, and clearly does blow out more arms than we would like.  

It is a debate that cannot be won, because we are both right in our own minds, and in our own ways of looking at the game.  And when I say we, I mean all of us on each end of the debate.  Having watched the game for 55 plus years, I feel comfortable in saying there simply are not 150 plus quality major league starting pitchers.  There are too many AAAA pitchers pitching at the major league level that never did before, and it show.  There are also not 240 plus major league relievers that should be on a major league roster.  And behind them are AAA players that have to be used as injuries happen.  Is it just possible that is why there were 10 man staffs for the better part of a century?  😏

But the pen last year was coming in in the 4th or 5th inning ... not the 8th and 9th. That's a HUGE difference. And I agree that the starters need to be stretched out ... but Varland has pitched more (see posts above) but will still need to pitch more for the rest of the season. We are only 2 months in ... we have a ways to go. I don't think asking a BP to regularly pitch the 8th and 9th innings, heck, even 7th, 8th and 9th is too much. Having them regularly pitch from the 5th on, yes, too much, as was the case last year.

 

[stringer bell]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

I mean it wouldn't be all 3 of them pitching again tonight. It'd most likely just be 1 of them, right? During a 162 game season there's almost always 1 reliever who isn't available unless you're coming off an off day. If they can't survive with 1 of those guys being unavailable Friday and Saturday they're in serious trouble.

It is a 13-man pitching staff after all. BTW, I think Baldelli does an underrated job of evening out the workload and keeping everyone involved and no one overworked. It certainly helps that the starters are averaging closer to six innings than five this year. 

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, stringer bell said:

BTW, I think Baldelli does an underrated job of evening out the workload 

How does he do when he is afternooning out the workload? 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Provus and Atteberry wanted to see Varland come out for the 8th. 

[TwinsDr2021]

9 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

But the pen last year was coming in in the 4th or 5th inning ... not the 8th and 9th. That's a HUGE difference. And I agree that the starters need to be stretched out ... but Varland has pitched more (see posts above) but will still need to pitch more for the rest of the season. We are only 2 months in ... we have a ways to go. I don't think asking a BP to regularly pitch the 8th and 9th innings, heck, even 7th, 8th and 9th is too much. Having them regularly pitch from the 5th on, yes, too much, as was the case last year.

 

First this isn't meant as a complaint about the length of stats, they have been way, way better this year, and for the most part haven't really questioned too many of when the starters have been pulled.

But by count a starter has pitched into the 6th in 33/56 starts, the 7th in 12/56 starts and 8th in 1/56 starts. (not counting innings where they didn't get an out, I know there have been a few of them) So the pen has regularly been required to pitch 3+ innings, so lets not get carried about saying 8th and 9th inning, that is very rare.

[TwinsDr2021]

3 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Provus and Atteberry wanted to see Varland come out for the 8th. 

There are not medical doctors for starting major league pitchers like quite of few are on this board are. That is a joke people!🤪

[IndianaTwin]

12 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

How does he do when he is afternooning out the workload? 

We'll see Sunday and next Thursday. 

[IndianaTwin]

9 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

There are not medical doctors for starting major league pitchers like quite of few are on this board are. That is a joke people!🤪

Give us a break, @TwinsDr2021. We know we're not doctors. We're much smarter than that. We're all pitching coaches! 🤣

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

2 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

There are not medical doctors for starting major league pitchers like quite of few are on this board are. That is a joke people!🤪

Confession: I and I alone possess the proprietary data for how many pitches a pitcher can throw — the inflection point for every single starter in the league before they risk injury is exactly 100.0 pitches!! 

[Mark G]

17 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

But the pen last year was coming in in the 4th or 5th inning ... not the 8th and 9th. That's a HUGE difference. And I agree that the starters need to be stretched out ... but Varland has pitched more (see posts above) but will still need to pitch more for the rest of the season. We are only 2 months in ... we have a ways to go. I don't think asking a BP to regularly pitch the 8th and 9th innings, heck, even 7th, 8th and 9th is too much. Having them regularly pitch from the 5th on, yes, too much, as was the case last year.

 

I guess the last stop on the debate is the definition of "stretched out".  When you combine pitch count limits AND times through the line up, there is no chance to ever stretch out a starter.  Meaning, the pen will pitch a third, or probably more, of the innings in a season.  Better be a pretty darn good pen!  😏

Is ours?  🙄

[Squirrel]

42 minutes ago, Mark G said:

I guess the last stop on the debate is the definition of "stretched out".  When you combine pitch count limits AND times through the line up, there is no chance to ever stretch out a starter.  Meaning, the pen will pitch a third, or probably more, of the innings in a season.  Better be a pretty darn good pen!  😏

Is ours?  🙄

Yeah, that’s not my definition. Times through the lineup have NOT been a limiting factor this year, at all, because we finally have a rotation that can actually pitch. Pitch count is and should be. This is why you are seeing pitchers reach further into games than 4 or 5 innings this year in general. This whole back and forth started because Varland came out of the game after going 7, with the score 8-0, and his pitch count in the 80s. I see no purpose or value in having him pitch the 8th. I wouldn’t have cared if he did, though, and I said that above. But not having him pitch the 8th this one game doesn’t mean he’s not going to be able to pitch more pitches in the next, because he already has this year. But we are 2 months into a season. I so no reason in not giving him a bit of a break this time, because next time we might need him to pitch to 105. That’s good managing, imo.

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

On the other side Baker pulled Tucker and Maldonado to get them off their feet.

  

Texting my Astros buddy, they are getting ready for a similar stretch of games and prepping for it as well.  That's why his pitchers had to wear it a little bit last night.