Emilio Pagán

[raindog]

So far he's pitched 1.1 innings this spring and given up 9 earned runs. I'm just impressed at this point. I didn't know that was possible. 

[USNMCPO]

Not sure how short of a leash he will have. After last year it should be very very short.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, raindog said:

So far he's pitched 1.1 innings this spring and given up 9 earned runs. I'm just impressed at this point. I didn't know that was possible. 

Really, you didn't? I'm sorry you didn't get to watch Twins games last year. 

[raindog]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Really, you didn't? I'm sorry you didn't get to watch Twins games last year. 

I feel like he's stepped up to a new level of bad this Spring, but maybe I've blocked out too much of last year. 

[wsnydes]

16 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Really, you didn't? I'm sorry you didn't get to watch Twins games last year. 

I knew there was a silver lining in not being able to watch somewhere!

[Chachi]

Seems almost criminal for him to continue using his self-assessed 'all-star stuff' for in-game batting practice.

One potentially positive result of these fireworks in spring training is that there should be no misgivings about continuing this sad experience during games that count.

Right Rocco?  Seen enough yet??

[nicksaviking]

Honestly, with Ober way overqualified to be a AAA starter and the team talking about having long men in the pen, Sending Pagan packing for Ober may be something they consider.

[wsnydes]

35 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Honestly, with Ober way overqualified to be a AAA starter and the team talking about having long men in the pen, Sending Pagan packing for Ober may be something they consider.

Especially if Maeda looks more like a bullpen arm than a rotation arm.

[Parfigliano]

4 hours ago, raindog said:

So far he's pitched 1.1 innings this spring and given up 9 earned runs. I'm just impressed at this point. I didn't know that was possible. 

Probably managed this not even facing guys who will be going north with their team.

[James]

3 hours ago, wsnydes said:

Especially if Maeda looks more like a bullpen arm than a rotation arm.

Maeda might be fine to start though.  Didn't he throw 2 scoreless innings where the pitchcom was broken and the batter could hear what pitch he was going to throw?  Sounds like a good start to me.

 

Pagan at the WBC will be more interesting to me than spring training game results though.  Especially the early game results.  

[big dog]

I heard Pagan was trying out a new pitch, but the results weren't good so he's going back to throwing overhand. The underhand motion just wasn't fooling anybody.

[stringer bell]

8 hours ago, raindog said:

So far he's pitched 1.1 innings this spring and given up 9 earned runs. I'm just impressed at this point. I didn't know that was possible. 

The official stats for Spring show that Pagan allowed three earned runs in one inning of work. Did he allow the other runs during the WBC?

[ashbury]

4 hours ago, big dog said:

I heard Pagan was trying out a new pitch, but the results weren't good so he's going back to throwing overhand. The underhand motion just wasn't fooling anybody.

The ump calling "too much arc" must have been frustrating to him. 😘

[Dman]

26 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

The official stats for Spring show that Pagan allowed three earned runs in one inning of work. Did he allow the other runs during the WBC?

Yeah I see the same thing per MLB.com below.  One bad first spring training outing shouldn't be a precursor for doom but I get that none of us trust him when he is in. Always feels like a HR is just the next pitch away. I certainly get PTSD when he comes in but still willing to give him most of spring to figure things out. Several pitchers have righted the ship so to speak this spring after tough outings.

 

[GNess]

Pagan has been in a state of perpetual struggle since joining the Twins. How many more data points do the Twins need?

[raindog]

13 hours ago, stringer bell said:

The official stats for Spring show that Pagan allowed three earned runs in one inning of work. Did he allow the other runs during the WBC?

I'm counting his appearance for Puerto Rico against Boston. It's not gonna be in his official stats. See the tweet below.

https://twitter.com/TwinsFarmReport/status/1633643372760973313

[KirbyDome89]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:54 AM, GNess said:

Pagan has been in a state of perpetual struggle since joining the Twins. How many more data points do the Twins need?

The struggles predate his arrival in MN. 

[Riverbrian]

I'll look the other way when considering his spring training small sample results this month. 

However... I am still looking at his larger sample regular season results for the past 3 years. 

If the club wants to hand the ball to him... OK... that's fine... but I'm hoping they are willing to make a quick move if that ball that they handed to him ends up over the fence too many times. 

[vulturepaj]

Please please please make it stop.

[farmerguychris]

Keeping him around puts us in the 'not even trying' list of teams.  But we signed C4 - so now I'm just confused.

How can you consider yourself really trying if you ever put him out in an actual game?

[nicksaviking]

28 minutes ago, farmerguychris said:

Keeping him around puts us in the 'not even trying' list of teams.  But we signed C4 - so now I'm just confused.

How can you consider yourself really trying if you ever put him out in an actual game?

Nobody wants him here, and I'm guessing he won't make the opening day roster barring an unexpected injury. However, his stuff is way better than his results. He strikes batters out at an elite level, he doesn't have control issues and he has good velocity and movement. Not "really trying" would probably be doing the opposite, dumping him without attempting to figure out and fix what should be a top end reliever. If anything they've been trying too hard and futilely.

[JD-TWINS]

22 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

The struggles predate his arrival in MN. 

His struggles as well as Jorge López’ struggles!! Need young arms from AAA rotation in Pen….at least one.

[TopGunn#22]

At some point, you actually have to perform to a level where you actually EARN your spot on the roster.  

[stringer bell]

4 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Nobody wants him here, and I'm guessing he won't make the opening day roster barring an unexpected injury. However, his stuff is way better than his results. He strikes batters out at an elite level, he doesn't have control issues and he has good velocity and movement. 

As much as I dislike it, I think Pagan has a good chance of making the team. I disagree that he "doesn't have control issues"--last year his BB% was higher than league average and I would submit that his command is even worse. He routinely goes 3-2 on too many hitters and grooves way too many pitches when he's behind on the count. 

[farmerguychris]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Nobody wants him here, and I'm guessing he won't make the opening day roster barring an unexpected injury. However, his stuff is way better than his results. He strikes batters out at an elite level, he doesn't have control issues and he has good velocity and movement. Not "really trying" would probably be doing the opposite, dumping him without attempting to figure out and fix what should be a top end reliever. If anything they've been trying too hard and futilely.

Great - but aren't results all that matter?  He was bad before he got here and we tried to fix him.  We spent an entire year 'fixing' him and what did it get us.  Why does the F.O. (whom I support more than many) want to spend a second year trying to fix him when the Padres couldn't, and we already spent a year failing at it?

According to Gleeman last season:

Emilio Pagán has a 4.82 ERA and 29 homers allowed in 123 innings since 2020. During that time ... - No reliever has thrown more innings with a worse ERA - He's allowed the most home runs per nine innings of any reliever - He has the worst Win Probability Added of any reliever.

Why would we spend any time trying to fix this?  Move on.

[nicksaviking]

36 minutes ago, farmerguychris said:

Great - but aren't results all that matter?  He was bad before he got here and we tried to fix him.  We spent an entire year 'fixing' him and what did it get us.  Why does the F.O. (whom I support more than many) want to spend a second year trying to fix him when the Padres couldn't, and we already spent a year failing at it?

According to Gleeman last season:

Emilio Pagán has a 4.82 ERA and 29 homers allowed in 123 innings since 2020. During that time ... - No reliever has thrown more innings with a worse ERA - He's allowed the most home runs per nine innings of any reliever - He has the worst Win Probability Added of any reliever.

Why would we spend any time trying to fix this?  Move on.

I don't think anyone on this site wants Pagan on the team. I took issue with the claim that the team wasn't really trying.

[ashbury]

5 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I'll look the other way when considering his spring training small sample results this month. 

However... I am still looking at his larger sample regular season results for the past 3 years. 

If the club wants to hand the ball to him... OK... that's fine... but I'm hoping they are willing to make a quick move if that ball that they handed to him ends up over the fence too many times. 

Yeah, don't hand him very many balls.

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, ashbury said:

Yeah, don't hand him very many balls.

[NotAboutWinning]

Sunk Cost Fallacy 😐

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, NotAboutWinning said:

Sunk Cost Fallacy 😐

We've already gone too far with the Sunk Cost Fallacy to give up now.