3 Reasons Why the Twins Stood Pat at the Trade Deadline

[insagt1]

Props to Matt for putting it out there. Clearly some here really aren't buying most, if not all the reasons. But thats the reason for this forum. After frustrating loss after loss, a place to vent for the diehard fan is very therapeutic. Its especially important for those of us who can only follow the Twins from afar (either here, on radio or MLB.com).

Twins were Rochester's parent team for almost 2 decades, so I became a fan. I won't become a fan of our current parent Washington EVER. Move them back to Montreal and I would change my mind. Unfortunately for us, MLB now has pretty much mandated that their top affiliates be as close geographically as possible so it made sense that St.Paul became the landing place for the Twins. Washington wanted to go to Richmond (currently not in the IL) but Rochester was only option. Rochester is the oldest baseball franchise in the history of the game so MLB did not dare eliminate us. But Washington has zero footprint here and there is zero interest in them. I wish we were still with the Twins as they were gathering some steam here.

I hope the Twins win the Central. My other favorite (and former parent) the Orioles could win the AL East. Both can't win it all (right now the O's are a much better team) but I'd be happy if one of them did!

So no matter how it shakes out...go Twins....somehow.....

 

[pierre75275]

I am not buying argument 2 or 3. Maybe I am misreading the intent but I feel the combination of those two points is basically the very best this team can do is win the weakest division in baseball, or this team is so pathetic that it doesn't make sense to improve it. I don't believe either of those things. 

This team could have been improved on for a playoff run. Thielbar is back, Lewis is scheduled for rehab assignment next week.

Hopefully Brock Stewart MRI reveals nothing serious and we have him back by Sept. Those 3 players are good and can really help this team.

This team is a good team, anything can happen in the playoffs, but if Buck and C4 and Vasquez don't produce, this team won't reach it's full potential.

[gman]

I think the Twins will win the division pretty easily, without about a dozen injuries anyway. Could they have done anything to get better than the other 5 upcoming playoff teams. Highly doubtful. They need 3 starters, possibly 4 if they win the first round of the playoffs. Probably need 5 good relievers for the playoffs and I think they have that. No matter what bat they could have brought in, Buxton, Correa, Kepler or Vasguez were not going to have much of a change in games played. None of those players are doing enough in the lineup to really propel the team. The best hitters are all the young guys, which to me is good news, so any batter traded for is going to knock one of them out of the lineup.

Probably the best thing they can do is rotate some guys out of the bullpen for periods of rest and maybe lengthen the rotation to get guys more rest. Or shorten the number of innings a starter throws which would entail more long relievers, which I am in favor of.

[Cris E]

I'll follow up on that Brewers remark with one more point: fans are rightfully proud of the good reputation the Twins organization has had over the years, especially regarding how they treat their people.  Moving Lopez to be closer to his son, for example, is something that didn't necessarily benefit the org that much but made a big difference to his family. Last year Brewers GM David Stearns made kind of a meh trade to send Josh Hader to San Diego, which mostly saved some money, picked up a couple pretty good prospects and a couple other relievers that weren't nearly as good as Hader. But Hader's kid was not well, he'd been pitching distracted and then he was sent to the West Coast. The team had been 7-2 coming out of the all-star break and starting the day of the trade they went 1-5 against CIN and PIT, two teams that ended the year with 62-100 records.  They didn't win the division and they only saved a few million bucks. It was a somewhat flawed team that probably didn't finish as well as it could have and part of that could have been trying to save a few bucks or grab some resources for the future at the expense of the present.  Didn't work all that well.

[Omardog]

If the "landscape changed in the final week" before the deadline, a front office with vision would have anticipated the possibility and traded for much needed bullpen/RH hitter help earlier, out in front of that change.  If Cleveland was a seller, all the more reason to beef up for the stretch run and to give the Twins an even slightly better shot in the post season.

And if the roster wasn't worth investing in, then Falvey/Levine are failures for 2023 by definition and should be blown out at season's end.

The failure to improve the team at the deadline is abysmal, a betrayal of Twins fans.

[PatPfund]

I think #1 and #2 are factors (not whole reasons). I think #3 here is totally wrong. What do you add with a trade? Usually a veteran from either a losing team, or a struggling veteran you hope to revive for a few months. What are the Twins? Underperforming veterans - Correa, Buxton probably due to injury, Polanco due to injury, Kepler (been a solid few weeks after years of brutality), Gallo (who clearly is what he was last year aka pretty bad), Vasquez somewhat, Farmer somewhat. Who are the interesting players that give the most hope on offense with potential upside if played more? All young players; Julien, Kirilloff, Lewis, Jeffers, Wallner, even Larnach and Castro. Where is the most potential right now at AAA? Offense (Stevenson, Prato, maybe Williams if you want that right-handed hitter).

I think the FO didn't add to the offense, because it would just add blockage to the team's best hopes, the younger players, and I think they correctly saw for this team to succeed in the playoffs, they need their current vets to produce better. If they develop their younger players (by playing them even against lefties), get Correa to start hitting better, and can keep Lewis and Polo healthy down the stretch, somebody like Pham would just be in the way.

Wouldn't have minded a couple solid RPs though. (Same thing I was thinking in the spring when they were FAs not trade targets.) (And developing younger players would go faster by  DFAing Gallo and putting Byron on IL when he is too injured to play (a month of that now might mean having the real Buxton down the stretch and into the playoffs).

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I think there honestly needs to be a #4: They were a little spooked that last year’s deadline deals were a disaster. 

[KBJ1]

While they have needed a RH outfield bat for years, trading for one would not have been practical. At this point, bring up Severino from AA and give him a shot.

Injuries again are killing us. Polanco, Buxton, Lewis, Kiriloff,  Theilbar & Stewart all are needed in top form in order to make a playoff run.

The one move they should have made was Bullpen help.

What is everyone's thoughts on Severino? AA players have made Hugh impacts before (Hrbek for one).

Maybe there is lightning in a bottle. 

Also, bringing up Kuechel, even as long relief or spot starter would have been worth replacing Sands, I feel. 

[bespenson]

I think there's got to be a fourth reason... they are going to finally fire the manager. Love Rocco, seems like a real nice guy. But shows no creativity, no fire, no ability to adjust. His tried and true methods of managing pitchers and other players are not working. What's up with best centerfielder in all of baseball. What are the Twins saing him for? His true value was patroling centerfield, not batting and especially not acting like Babe Ruth. His singles, doubles, triples boosted the whole team. Why is it a secret what his injuries are. The source of his big bucks, the fans, deserve to know why he's sitting on the bench every game. It is likely very justified, so why secretive.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I thought they definitely should have made a move to add to their bullpen yesterday. But as far as bullpen help for the first playoff round, here’s an idea we can start thinking about.

The Twins will only need three starters there, so when is the best time to sit down with them as a unit and lay this out? Who would volunteer to pitch from the bullpen? If we count it out 1-2-3-4-5 from now until the end of the season, the game one starter would be Lopez’s turn, followed by Ryan, then Gray. I kind of like the idea of Ober starting game two and saving Gray for an inning or two in relief, so the rotation will need to be adjusted before then. I would offer Gray the game one and game five starts for the second round to see if he would be willing to pitch in the bullpen that first round. Either that or be left off the roster. 

[Battle ur tail off]

3 hours ago, Beast said:

If the roster isn’t worth investing in, trade players for prospects.  Doing nothing with all of these expiring contracts (Gray, Maeda, Kepler, etc.) is so cowardly and such awful resource management.

In a vaccum, I guess you are right. But for fans, ticket sales, etc, it is bad business to dump 2-3 of your starting players for prospects when you are leading your division.

[Jeff K]

3 hours ago, kenneth frank said:

No, I don't agree with # 3. This team reminds me of the 87 Twins. Going through that season experts wrote that team off many times (and so did I) yet when they got to the playoffs with a mixture of youth and experience, the team began believing in themselves (or maybe the coach got them believing in themselves) and did some damage. I don't believe this team can win it all but maybe they can end that 20 year old losing (0-18) streak and do some damage.

making an analogy to an event from 36 years ago might not be relevant.  So much has changed in baseball since that time.

[srlarson]

thought we would have traded one of our expiring pitchers at least for prospects.....now we will lose for nothing.....would have like to see some major league hitter come along...Gallo needs to be DFa'd...like him but can't take the K's and low BA.......

Too many .200 hitters in this lineup to be anything but a first round out.....

 

[mikelink45]

I have to share this Ken Rosenthal quote: "

"Call it whatever you want — restraint, discipline, outright fear — but few executives act with urgency. Many are too busy spouting playoff odds to rationalize their inactivity, sticking to their beloved processes, moving ever so cautiously as they try to preserve their jobs."

And Keith Law said:

"The Twins didn’t do anything to add, either, so I guess the AL Central is the battle of who could care less. The three teams below these two were all sellers, leaving the Twins and Guardians to fight it out for the division title, and maybe one of them will actually win more than half of their games this year. Either one of these teams could have put some real distance between themselves and their rivals with one big move, but the Guardians sold and the Twins went wee-wee-wee all the way home."

 

[AceWrigley]

3 hours ago, Patzky said:

The Keuchel thing still disappoints me though..

Its not over yet, the Twins have a few days to decide, which they'll probably wait until the last day to see if there are any injury or usage needs to bring him on to the MLB roster.

[Hubie29]

Keuchel is gone. According to Britt Ghiroli of the Athletic

[Brandon]

58 minutes ago, bespenson said:

I think there's got to be a fourth reason... they are going to finally fire the manager. Love Rocco, seems like a real nice guy. But shows no creativity, no fire, no ability to adjust. His tried and true methods of managing pitchers and other players are not working. What's up with best centerfielder in all of baseball. What are the Twins saing him for? His true value was patroling centerfield, not batting and especially not acting like Babe Ruth. His singles, doubles, triples boosted the whole team. Why is it a secret what his injuries are. The source of his big bucks, the fans, deserve to know why he's sitting on the bench every game. It is likely very justified, so why secretive.

We have one of the top pitching staffs in the AL.  How is Rocco a bad manager of the pitching staff?  That is one area he has actually excelled at.  Now being a motivator is a good question.  

[Minny505]

4 hours ago, old nurse said:

Pretty much reason 3 stands as the most logical. Even in rentals Lopez showed them to stay awa y from career year players.  Significantly better than average players would require significantly better than average prospects,, even for relievers. To fill the holes in the roster with these types of players would cost more capital than the Twins have, Adding only slightly better players has a low probability of changing  the outcome.for the season.. The players they have playing up to their capabilities is what is needed,. That there is that difference is the problem with the team. Is it then the player, managers and coaches or front office’s fault? Maybe all three. The team still leads the division. Winning the games against the division opponents will be the determinant of the outcome of the season. 

As I read the article, the one that I call bull$&!# on most is #3.

The Padres basically did what we wanted the Twins to do and they made no "investment" whatsoever in the players they traded away. A bunch of 15-30 system ranked prospects. That's essentially nothing.

At a minimum the Twins should have traded guys away to avoid Rule 5 cuts. Get something for the replacement level excess in the org that are still viewed as lottery tickets.

The only reason to not trade our #16 prospect (who needs to be added to the 40 man this offseason, which means the team loses the #24 prospect anyway) for a RH OF bat is that they plan to have Buxton get back out there in the next week. Do you see that happening? 

[Minny505]

The most likely reason for the team standing pat will never be stated publicly. 

Ownership, due to the TV contract, gave the FO the red light on adding any payroll. All trades would have to be essentially payroll neutral at minimum. 

Lopez for Floro was essentially this.

The FO tried their hardest to make another payroll neutral trade like this, but no takers. 

Occam's Razor would deem this the most likely explanation due to the logical & factual fallacies in the reasons given by Falvey...and no person who wants to continue to work in MLB would share that honest explanation with the public. Ever.

We'll find out in the 2047 memoir that Falvey publishes😜

[Minny505]

47 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

Keuchel is gone. According to Britt Ghiroli of the Athletic

No. He opted out. He's not gone. There is a difference.

The Twins retain his rights for another 36ish hours and could work out an MLB deal. No other team has any right to discuss a contract with him until that 36ish hours is up.

[John Belinski]

23 minutes ago, Minny505 said:

No. He opted out. He's not gone. There is a difference.

The Twins retain his rights for another 36ish hours and could work out an MLB deal. No other team has any right to discuss a contract with him until that 36ish hours is up.

He is certainly better than several pitchers we now have. Hard to understand they let him walk, but that is not a surprise with the Twins front office. It makes no sense that they did not trade him if they were not going to keep him since he pitched well in AAA. They should have added a right handed batter to help win games during the balance of the season. Front office did nothing to help Twins win. Twins have 4 or 5 left handed outfielders that can not play at the same time and needed to add a right handed batter. Twins fans deserve better front office and not one that does nothing.

[farmerguychris]

I don't think we could have sold off enough to become a serious world series contender.  With that said, my goal remains to be to win ONE playoff game.

Yes, we need to get there first, but one post season victory is still within reach, and be a milestone we haven't accomplished in 20 years.  We didn't get any weaker in our farm system, and can still improve by having players like Lewis come back, and getting rid of dead weight in players like Gallo (addition by subtraction).  Now if they do any cuts like letting Gallo go is the question.  I fear they will not.

[Greglw3]

6 hours ago, kenneth frank said:

No, I don't agree with # 3. This team reminds me of the 87 Twins. Going through that season experts wrote that team off many times (and so did I) yet when they got to the playoffs with a mixture of youth and experience, the team began believing in themselves (or maybe the coach got them believing in themselves) and did some damage. I don't believe this team can win it all but maybe they can end that 20 year old losing (0-18) streak and do some damage.

Except Gladden is far better than Gallo, Puckett is worlds better than MAT and Brunansky is light years better than Kepler.

I maintain that aside from Buxton and Correa, the Twins OF construction coming into 2023 was a colossal mistake and misjudgment and is the weakness on the team costing them from going 10 games over .500 and higher.

The FO blew it in the offseason and now blew it again. I’d rather them play Andrew Stevenson or DaShawn Kersey than Gallo but there he is and now Rocco is starting to have to hide him to help the team.

[python85]

5 hours ago, Otaknam said:

why Cincinnati is playoff bound.  

According to Fan Graphs the Reds have a 38% chance to make the playoffs entering play today. They may make the playoffs, but calling them playoff bound is a huge stretche.

[Nine of twelve]

7 hours ago, kenneth frank said:

This team reminds me of the 87 Twins.

1987 is an invalid comparison. The 2023 team itself may be remindful of the 1987 team but that's not the case regarding the postseason situation. Not even close. The 1987 team had the worst record of 4 postseason teams but only had to win 2 series and had home field advantage for both of them. Moreover, when they played St. Louis Jack Clark was out and Terry Pendleton was significantly gimpy. The 2023 team currently has the worst record of 12 postseason teams and is guaranteed home field advantage in only the first of four postseason series that they would need to win to become World Champions.

[TwinsDr2021]

4 hours ago, KBJ1 said:

What is everyone's thoughts on Severino? AA players have made Hugh impacts before (Hrbek for one).

There have been a few of us calling for at least a promotion to AAA. The problem is he plays 2nd and 3rd. Not a lot of room at 2nd, and third is tough to bring him up and play 3rd when Polanco was returning, Lewis on the horizon and him passing Miranda. He isn't on the 40 man and another problem with Buxton being a DH only player.

The signing of Gallo and Buxton being a DH has hampered the roster construction all year and not getting rid of Gallo or Kepler months ago. On top the the ignorance of this FO to Tell Wallner and Julien to get a first baseman's glove while they were in the minors was terrible as well.

I would also like to add imagine if they hadn't traded Steer, what would they do with him? Because of course he never played first in the Twins minor leagues, but guess what Cincy played him there 2 games last year in AAA and that is now his main position. Sometimes this FO seems clueless.

[arby58]

8 hours ago, Beast said:

If the roster isn’t worth investing in, trade players for prospects.  Doing nothing with all of these expiring contracts (Gray, Maeda, Kepler, etc.) is so cowardly and such awful resource management.

First, you have no way of knowing if there was a market for any of these players, or if the return would be positive. Second, there is something to be said for actually making the play-offs - there are a lot of fans who go through the turnstiles every home game who would prefer they make them than not. I'd venture that both Gray and Maeda give the Twins a better chance of making the play-offs than not (and Kepler of late has been valuable as well).

[arby58]

My thoughts are there is a fourth reason: they think the return of some of their injured players (besides Lewis, that includes Stewart and the recently-reactivated Thielbar) are going to give them as much boost as a trade for help.

[KirbyDome89]

1. The trade landscape by definition will always change. It's literally the job of a FO to adjust. Idk how this can possibly be an excuse for getting nothing done. 

2. Cleveland sold so MN can be content to do nothing? Coasting to a crown in an awful division misses the point. They know they'll have to play somebody other than KC, Detroit, Chicago, or Cleveland in the postseason right? 

3. The roster that this FO built isn't worth investing in? If they really feel that way then lets cut bait now...

[old nurse]

4 hours ago, Minny505 said:

As I read the article, the one that I call bull$&!# on most is #3.

The Padres basically did what we wanted the Twins to do and they made no "investment" whatsoever in the players they traded away. A bunch of 15-30 system ranked prospects. That's essentially nothing.

At a minimum the Twins should have traded guys away to avoid Rule 5 cuts. Get something for the replacement level excess in the org that are still viewed as lottery tickets.

The only reason to not trade our #16 prospect (who needs to be added to the 40 man this offseason, which means the team loses the #24 prospect anyway) for a RH OF bat is that they plan to have Buxton get back out there in the next week. Do you see that happening? 

Other than Tyler Wells the Twins have not lost a player that amounted to anything in the rule v draft. In thinking other teams would want the current crop of rule v eligible players that are not on the 40 man is wishful thinking at best. 

The Padres added a starting pitcher that right now is pitching like somewhere between a 5th starter and a batting practice pitcher. They added a reliever that is having a horrible year with an ERA over 5.  They added a hitter that is about a league average hitter. They did not give up much to get them. They are only hoping that their past performances will come back. That would not be good additions to this version of the Twins. They already have a few players like that.