The Twins Finally Picked a Lane

[In My La Z boy]

4 minutes ago, Doctor Wu said:

Hey, that was my first reaction too after I read that Jax was traded. But then ... WTH?! I'm still stumped by the Varland trade most of all. Not sure if the Twins truly have a direction now at all. 

I went to the top 25 prospects list traded yesterday and they have Rojas listed as the 6th best along with the 2 guys from the Phillies at #2 & #3. They obviously wanted this Rojas more than Louie.

[Doctor Wu]

1 hour ago, CRF said:

Nothing will ever change here without a new ownership group, a new front office/GM, and a new manager. 

Yep, the tear down is not yet complete...or at least it shouldn't be finished. Keep the rest of the players, but let's get new brains upstairs. 

[mickster]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So the plan was to spent 8 years trying win one two game playoff series, then do a complete rebuild ? This FO has been has been one failure after the next. Will yesterday be marked as the official time of death for the MN Twins (for the fans) or will the team continue to pretend they have some relevancy?  

I have been a die hard MN Twins fan from the mid 70's and yesterday was crushing.   I did understand some of the moves, and could even get behind the Correa one a little bit.   Duran hurt - however the BP we still had was going to be good and we sold high.    Bader, Castro, Coulombe all made sense and at the time was hoping maybe we could bring them back in the off season.   Stewart I was on the fence on.   He was lights out, but injury history and age were against him.  I, unlike others, do like Outman and think he could be an above average OF for us.  Just wish he hit RH.   Jax made little sense, and the Varland trade was the back breaker...........................WTF.   I will not be attending any more games this year, and will find it hard to follow them as my heart has been ripped out.   If I were Buxton I would have called and demanded TRADE ME TOO!!!!!!

[Doctor Wu]

35 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

The returns are very underwhelming.

That pretty much says it. A few of these new players may stick, and I really like Taj Bradley, but overall we didn't get nearly enough in return, especially in that Duran trade. 

[mickster]

1 hour ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

As I contemplate I'm fine with tearing it down. Not that I'm fine with some of the returns but fine with the choice. That said don't stop here. I know this won't be popular but others need to go and contribute towards the rebuild. Lopez, Ryan, Jeffers, Larnach, etc. But Baldelli should not be leading this rebuild. Get him out of here. In all honesty neither should Falvey be continuing here. He built the team and it failed. Pohlad's can'r be gone soon enough. But when?

Nope - now you give Lopez and Ryan extensions to build back some trust and build around a pretty solid SP staff,   Larnach should stay.  Wallner could be used to trade in the offseason.   Jeffers is someone to extend as well - we have teenagers coming.   Biggest thing that must happen is the POHLADS NEED TO GO

[Doctor Wu]

When do we see who is on the team for Friday's game? And the new 40 man roster?

[In My La Z boy]

14 minutes ago, Original_JB said:

Sure they picked a lane, it's to completely cut costs to the bone and have no long term obligations on the books for the lockout that will happen after next year. Which also makes me wonder if there even really is a potential buyer in the wings.

There might be a buyer now, which was the point I suppose. We only have approx $90M committed to next year. Pohlads have $422M in debt on the Twins books. That's a problem, and we're paying for it sadly.

[Otaknam]

They needed to make a lot of moves. The way last year ended and this year has gone verified that this roster was not getting it done. Time will tell how this all works out, but I don’t think they got enough for Duran. The young catcher Tait is probably three years away, and the starter Abel is a former top draft choice who has struggled at the ML level. The Phillies have another starter, Painter, and that’s the guy they need to acquire for Duran. I was surprised they traded Varland, who is under team control and has been effective in relief, though I know he wants to start. 

[wepeters]

Given Manfred's comments during the All-Star break regarding a sale of the Twins that is going to happen (indicating he knew more than most), I assume this dismantling of the team was something new potential ownership was okay with and may even have dictated be done now so as not to look like the bad guys when they take over.  They'll actually look like potential saviors of a franchise that is plummeting into obscurity...further.

Optimist in me says they'll also begin the free-agent season with some money in hand and prepared to put together a club that can compete, eventually.

Holding out for a silver lining in this.

[Eris]

19 minutes ago, Old Twins Hat said:

This is a long-term secular trend and the Twins have instantly moved to the front of the line and will be fun to watch next year -- for once!

While I agree with the overall assessment of the direction of baseball, I don’t agree with the conclusion as it relates to the Twins. The Twins are currently a very slow team with poor defensive metrics that seems to have been built for a different (bomba) era that has moved on. To paraphrase one of the more insightful comments on TD, the Twins have 5 or 6 position players whose best position is DH. This will need to be seriously addressed. 

[Cory Engelhardt]

8 minutes ago, mickster said:

Nope - now you give Lopez and Ryan extensions to build back some trust and build around a pretty solid SP staff,   Larnach should stay.  Wallner could be used to trade in the offseason.   Jeffers is someone to extend as well - we have teenagers coming.   Biggest thing that must happen is the POHLADS NEED TO GO

I wouldn't need to hold on to Larnach. Outman and Rodan are both superior defensive players, and Jenkins and Rodriguez are both not far away (unless Rodriguez can just never stay healthy.)

[saviking]

1 hour ago, ashbury said:

If there's a plan, you should be able to state it.  The trade of Varland, under control through 2030 I believe, is out of keeping.  I don't know when the next window of contention is targeted.  Do we just keep developing and trading away?

I agree. We slidbthr window back unless new ownership spends big next year. At least they have 22 million to work with from the Correa trade. 

 

I wish someone woukd dobabrankung if our NEW too 40 minor league players. Only waybI can evaluate what we got for all the players we imunloaded. The Vsrland trade made no sense.

[Fred]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So the plan was to spent 8 years trying win one two game playoff series, then do a complete rebuild ? This FO has been has been one failure after the next. Will yesterday be marked as the official time of death for the MN Twins (for the fans) or will the team continue to pretend they have some relevancy?  

Well, gee, when you put it like that, it sounds kinda dumb.

[Woof Bronzer]

Still wrapping my head around yesterday, but the more I think about it there's no way any of this was Falvey's idea.  Why would he do any of this?  I guess he could be showing a future owner how cheap he can be...otherwise he just punted on 2025 and 2026 too.  Burning it down on his way out the door?  I assume he wants another FO job if he's done here, no owner would hire him after a stunt like that.  (Also the Pohlads could have just stepped in and stopped him if he was really going rogue.)

I suspect the Pohlads gave him some really grim targets, and he did the best he could within those.  If you squint hard enough you notice he didn't give up his top 3 starters, nor his best player (Buxton) - hard to call it a strategic teardown if you hold on to probably your 4 most valuable assets.  He gave up most of the bullpen - well, nobody on the planet believes he can build a bullpen out of a scrap heap than Derek Falvey.  But there's no plan on the baseball side.  The plan is: cut costs.  That's it, that's the plan.  Falvey just did the best he could (in his mind) with the hand he was dealt. 

What worries me is the Outman thing and especially the Varland trade - there's no cost savings to be gleaned here.  I'm a bit worried that the Pohlads realize they can't sell the team for what they want, so some of yesterday was an intentional F You to the fans, similar to how the Pohlads threw a hissy fit when they didn't get their government handout for a stadium and tried to contract the Twins out of existence.  "Oh you like this hometown kid?  Maybe you shouldn't have complained about payroll. Screw you, fans."  Hell hath no fury like a billionaire who doesn't get everything he wants.  I am nervous that yesterday signals that they maybe aren't selling, or aren't selling any time soon.

The simplest explanation, of course, is that the Pohlads are cutting costs ahead of a sale.  This is common in business, and the Pohlads have zero interest in the baseball side of things.  I sure hope this is the case...but again, this doesn't explain why they traded Varland or Stewart.

[Bodie]

40 minutes ago, ChermesZ said:

Will any good fans want to participate in this too? No stadium give-away can cover this stench.

I'd rather pay the ticket price to see a young team scrapping for jobs, trying to claw a few extra wins above the 50 more or less guaranteed to every MLB team than the breathing abortion that has been masquerading as a team that we have been "treated" to for the last few seasons. 

Let's be honest.  We just saw the teardown of the most unlikable, unwatchable, unprofessional, and unlovable Twins team of the last 50 plus years.  I'll miss watching Bader.  You native Minnesotans will miss Varland (utterly inexplicably to me, but to each their own).  

My takeaway after the deadline has passed?  Good riddance to bad rubbish. It is almost unimaginable that it got to this point, but there was no concrete foundation for a team to be built on Monday.  On Friday?  We don't know.   Monday?  That we knew!

[TheLeviathan]

I won't argue all the deals made sense or maximized value or even that the returns yielded a vision/lane.....

But emotionally?  I did feel there was a lane: they sobered up and figured out it wasn't working.  Problem is that all the upper management and ownership who built it are still here.

That's the next gutting we need.

[Coach Wheels]

1 hour ago, Ole St Carleton said:

I wouldn’t mind this sell-off if the coaching staff could actually guide the upcoming youngsters toward playing effective baseball. Baldelli & crew have consistently failed to coach the offense to successfully bunt, move runners, sacrifice, run bases, take a 2 strike approach etc. Look at how Milwaukee dismantled the Twins during their last series. Of course, all of this needs to begin in the low minor league levels.

It’s sad to see Tom Kelly’s brand of winning baseball being fumbled into oblivion.

Great take and I 100% agree. There is zero reason to believe dumping our entire bullpen for Ostman and Bradley (guessing they come to the big squad) and bunch of top5-15 prospects will work with this management and coaching staff.

Lewis, Lee, Larnach, Wallner, Julien, and Miranda were all rated highly in our system and have either failed or shown us very little to say they're long term assets. I'm optimistic on Lee and, maybe Lewis but the rest are on their last chance with the big club before we make decisions.

This core is soft and I do not believe we have coaches in place to challenge them and push them

[karcherd]

33 minutes ago, Old Twins Hat said:

Here's the plan:  build around youth.

Look at baseball right now.  Teams like KC, Detroit, Chicago, Cincy, -- there is a youth movement like never before.  There is a ton of talent coming up through the ranks and the exciting teams in MLB are tapping it.

Thirty is the new thirty five and the teams that jump backwards from that into the young twenties are going to be the funnest to watch as new star after new star emerges.

Everything can be measured now, speed, curve ball rotation, arm slot, swing speed, everything.  And, the young guys are the ones that are building their bodies and abilities according to what the analysis tells them.

This is a long-term secular trend and the Twins have instantly moved to the front of the line and will be fun to watch next year -- for once!

We will see if this is truly their plan.  They have been analytics for the last 8 years and they just tore it down.  Also they don't have players in the young twenties and I am not sure we will see those players this year or next.  

And if they are going to youth, Gasper and Clemens can not be on the roster after today.  We will see, this front office has been a failure and trading for another 28 year old bust thinking they will fix them when they haven't developed their own players is mind boggling.

[Doctor Wu]

5 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Still wrapping my head around yesterday, but the more I think about it there's no way any of this was Falvey's idea. 

Blame it all on that crazy old fortune teller they visited.

[Woof Bronzer]

17 minutes ago, Doctor Wu said:

Yep, the tear down is not yet complete...or at least it shouldn't be finished. Keep the rest of the players, but let's get new brains upstairs. 

Phase 2: new owners

Phase 3: FO house cleaning.  Top to bottom.

Phase 4: coaching staff house cleaning.  Majors, minors, everyone.

The entire organization needs to be scrubbed clean to remove the stink of the Pohlads and the Falvey/Rocco era.

The next phase is the hardest, and I'm still not convinced the Pohlads are selling....but once Phase 2 happens, 3&4 should follow...

[Fred]

1 hour ago, hitterscount said:

They hit the exit lane and took the off ramp without a strategy.

Their own actions speak of the gross incompetence in putting together the team. Rocco and Falvey should be given the same treatment within the first 10 seconds after the sale of the team.

At this point I need to remind you that, at the start of the season, Falvey (and Levine) had put together what was considered to be, by most, "the best bullpen in baseball". I fully understand the Rocco hate.

[chpettit19]

24 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

I do not think they have to trade Lopez, Ober and Ryan this offseason. My guess is they made enough conversation happen with Boston (among others) that Ryan is going to be dealt. He certainly can bring back a few pieces for next year (maybe a 1B or a catcher that can play, along with some good prospects) but I don't see the need to trade the other 2.

That sounds bleak, but I do think they like Abel and Bradley, along with Zebby, to round out the rotation.

Also wouldn't be shocked if SWR/Festa/Ohl/Morris/Raya/Prielipp, some combo of those are either traded for bullpen pieces or turned into bullpen pieces.

Still wish we had Varland though. 

They don't HAVE to trade any of them. But if this is truly a rebuild why wouldn't they trade all 3? Their value isn't going to ever be higher. Assuming Ober comes back and pitches like his usual self the rest of the year and Lopez comes back and proves he's healthy at the end of the year. 2 years of control will be far more valuable than 1.3, 1, or .3. 

No, they don't HAVE to trade those guys, but if, as the article suggests, the Twins truly picked a lane and they're going full rebuild then the absolute right choice is to blow it up and trade those 3 this offseason to get the maximum return. They're the 3 that can really get a rebuild jump started. What's the point of holding them if you're truly doing a rebuild? There is no point. None at all. Their value won't grow and they're all going to be 30 next year so it's not like they'd be part of the rebuilt team anyways.

Don't risk any of them blowing an elbow. If you're rebuilding you trade them all. But that's my point in the other post. I don't think they're rebuilding. I think they're trying to win now and later. And I think it's going to be a disaster.

[JDubs]

1 hour ago, Ole St Carleton said:

It’s sad to see Tom Kelly’s brand of winning baseball being fumbled into oblivion.

Rocco has a better win percentage than TK by a healthy margin

[saviking]

15 minutes ago, saviking said:

I agree. We slidbthr window back unless new ownership spends big next year. At least they have 22 million to work with from the Correa trade. 

 

I wish someone woukd dobabrankung if our NEW too 40 minor league players. Only waybI can evaluate what we got for all the players we imunloaded. The Vsrland trade made no sense.

Man, I should have edited my last post .. lol but you get the gist

[Reptevia]

Owners and front office have left the fans badly used-like a dictionary in a stupid family. 

[Doctor Wu]

9 minutes ago, Coach Wheels said:

This core is soft and I do not believe we have coaches in place to challenge them and push them

Good point. I wonder if we DO have the coaches that are necessary to challenge and get the best out of our younger prospects. Seth might have better insight on the pros and cons of the coaching staff. But it seems like it could/should be a lot better. 

[big dog]

1 minute ago, saviking said:

Man, I should have edited my last post .. lol but you get the gist

I lost you at "dobabrankun", if you want to know.

[Doctor Wu]

9 minutes ago, Fred said:

At this point I need to remind you that, at the start of the season, Falvey (and Levine) had put together what was considered to be, by most, "the best bullpen in baseball".

If it was the best, we should have gotten a much better return on these trades. 

[Road trip]

A tradesman friend of mine often says "You can have a project done fast, you can have it done inexpensively, and you can have it done well, but you can't have all three, and often you have to choose just one."

Well, we know the Twins FO acted very fast yesterday afternoon...

And we know they cut a lot of money off of payroll...

Hm, wonder what they left out?

[Woof Bronzer]

6 minutes ago, JDubs said:

Rocco has a better win percentage than TK by a healthy margin

Given what happened yesterday, if Rocco sticks around another 8 years to equal TK's 14 years,  I'm certain this will no longer be the case.