Is Emphasizing Depth Charges Like Ty France the Right Offseason Strategy?

[TheLeviathan]

One thing I do think is worth pointing out in these "floor" conversations is that a roster with depth is a major component to a successful season.  I don't have an issue with this team adding veterans that provide specific, needed skills to the roster.  

There seems to be a lot of False Dilemma going on in the last week.  As someone who has stood tall to play more Nick Gordon, Matt Wallner, Eddy Julien, and many others....I appreciate the concern that we don't want to block young players.  Like many of you, I'm old enough to remember how we wasted huge chunks of our available resources on guys like Rondell White.  That concern resonates with me.

But there is a balancing act between providing opportunity and leaving yourself pressing prospects who aren't ready into professional games.  We can do both.  Harrison Bader doesn't mean E-Rod will never see the light of day.  Columbe doesn't mean Varland should get a job at Kwik Trip.  I promise....we can do both.

[Strombomb]

1 hour ago, Exiled in Illinois said:

Go Twins!

We have 4 proven all-star caliber players (Buck, Correa, Lopez, Castro)!

We have 3 playoff caliber starters, including an ace!

We have a solid back end of rotation with depth, and even some potential upside!

We have and elite bullpen back end!

We have very good setup guys in bullpen!

The rest of bullpen is solid, with depth!

We have 2 can't miss prospects in position to prove themselves (Lee and Lewis...we'll see if they really are cant miss)!

We have a bunch of young guys who have shown flashes, but need to prove they can be solid MLB regulars!

We have a solid farm system with help on the way!

Wow! And we're a mid market team!  Can any other mid-market teams make similar boasts?

Bader and France are needed, competant backups.  Backups.  They have holes/questions in thier games. That's why they are backups.  If they are forced to be primary starters, it'll be a long season.

If our all stars don't perform or are injured, it'll be a long season.

If our starters don't perform or are injured, it'll be a long season.

If our bullpen doesn't perform or are injured, it'll be a long season.

If our young guys don't perform, it'll be a long season.

I swear, the only way to make some people happy about the Twins would be to have all stars at every position, backed up by other allstars!

I'm happy with my Twins!  Looking forward an exciting season!

Go Twins!

 

As a general rule:

Rocco likes to get every bench player in every game. The only position players that sit out an entire game are the really good ones that "need" scheduled rest days or are too fragile to play a whole season.

These guys brought in for "depth" may have a higher floor than our minor league prospects but the young guys can never reach the ceiling if you don't give them a chance. 

[saviking]

I just read we gave France a one year 1 million contract that's not guaranteed.. makes me feel better.

[Exiled in Illinois]

There is a recurring theme that we don't give our young players/prospects a chance to reach their ceiling in the MLB.

Julien, Miranda, Lee, Lewis, Wallner, Larnach, Festa, SWR, Matthews, Martin, Varland are all young players that were given a chance at the show, and appear they will be given more chances this year.  Some failed, some didn't, but they all had their chance and they all will continue to get chances in the MLB this year.

We signed two backups in positions of need to MLB contracts...Bader and France.  What sure fire, MLB ready prospects are they blocking?  

Everyone says we need let young guys get experience,  Well, here we go!  If as a group they succeed, we're all going to have fun!

Go Twins!

[rv78]

7 hours ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

France hit the ball very hard last year,  but was unlucky, similar type player to Kepler, so with that in mind I am not surprised they took a chance on him. 

Not sure how you can call Kepler "unlucky" when he's only had 1.5 seasons of good baseball in his career. If France is similar, it's a waste of a roster spot.

[rv78]

6 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

But higher floor equals higher job security, regardless of ceiling, so let's prioritize securing a .500 record over a shot at a championship.

Is this sarcasm? Because if you are happy watching a team that prioritizes .500 baseball over a Championship, even just 1, then you will never see that Championship. 

[karcherd]

29 minutes ago, Exiled in Illinois said:

There is a recurring theme that we don't give our young players/prospects a chance to reach their ceiling in the MLB.

Julien, Miranda, Lee, Lewis, Wallner, Larnach, Festa, SWR, Matthews, Martin, Varland are all young players that were given a chance at the show, and appear they will be given more chances this year.  Some failed, some didn't, but they all had their chance and they all will continue to get chances in the MLB this year.

We signed two backups in positions of need to MLB contracts...Bader and France.  What sure fire, MLB ready prospects are they blocking?  

Everyone says we need let young guys get experience,  Well, here we go!  If as a group they succeed, we're all going to have fun!

Go Twins!

Martin was given 250 AB's, Waller hasn't had more than 260 AB's in a season, hardly giving them a real chance.  Wallner was kept in AAA two years ago for two months because of Gallo even though he was tearing it up and Gallo wasn't doing anything at the plate.  That is the issue with all of the bargain basement vets, their production is no better than what the kids could give and the potential upside is not being given a chance.  I am not saying every prospect will be a star but some can be solid pieces.  You have to trust your player development team and give them a chance.  If France makes this roster it will not be as a backup, he will have 400 AB's and we will still won't know if Miranda can play 1B on a regular basis.  To me he has earned a job and if he can't do it, that is when you make these moves if there are no other options.  

[KirbyDome89]

5 hours ago, bean5302 said:

France has a NON-GUARANTEED contract guys. It's basically a MiLB signing with an opt out for making the roster. The difference is France will make $1MM this year if he makes the roster instead of $760k...

I don't have any real issues with the signing, and Headrick should have been non-tendered IMHO. His ceiling is probably spot middle reliever if he can even be successful in that role. 

Is the overall strategy good? No. Spend money on GOOD players. Trade depth for depth. When you spend money on low ceiling depth players, you wind up with guys on the roster you'd rather not have on the roster, but you still have to pay them.

It's not, for the reason you cited in your last sentence. They can't stash him to start the season. This isn't a Tim Beckham break glass in case of emergency type deal. 

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

10 minutes ago, rv78 said:

Not sure how you can call Kepler "unlucky" when he's only had 1.5 seasons of good baseball in his career. If France is similar, it's a waste of a roster spot.

Kepler has a career 20+ WAR.  What I am discussing is the expected stats vs actual.   The difference most people call is luck,  others say it is due to other circumstances or issues and not truly luck.   

[NYCTK]

 

18 minutes ago, karcherd said:

Martin was given 250 AB's, Waller hasn't had more than 260 AB's in a season, hardly giving them a real chance.  Wallner was kept in AAA two years ago for two months because of Gallo even though he was tearing it up and Gallo wasn't doing anything at the plate.  That is the issue with all of the bargain basement vets, their production is no better than what the kids could give and the potential upside is not being given a chance.  I am not saying every prospect will be a star but some can be solid pieces.  You have to trust your player development team and give them a chance.  If France makes this roster it will not be as a backup, he will have 400 AB's and we will still won't know if Miranda can play 1B on a regular basis.  To me he has earned a job and if he can't do it, that is when you make these moves if there are no other options.  

Martin sucks, which is why he dropped off of top 100 prospect lists before he debuted and why failed to show any real skill in the major leagues.

And Wallner was handed a starting job at the start of the season and proceeded to strike out in half his at bats. Yeah, he was kept down in AAA for a few weeks longer than he otherwise would have in AAA but he played himself into becoming the starter, thus proving he wasn't blocked. 

 

[jmlease1]

3 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

We will never win another world series with this group  , I hope it's better with an owner that wants to win ...

Also  , will we ever have anyone presently that could be a hall of famer  , if you continue to platoon  players , they'll never be considered worthy of the HOF  ...

Correa could still make it, depending on how his legs hold up. people are giving Jimmy Rollins serious consideration (his vote totals have gone up every year) and Correa has similar bWAR in half the games played. But it's very hard to find Hall-worthy players; the Hall of Famers that have played for the Twins for more than a season or three in the last 40 years is pretty short: Mauer, Puckett. (It was nice that Molitor ended his career here, but does anyone think of him as a Twins Hall of Famer? It was great that Winfield got his 3000 hit here, but people think of the Padres or the Yankees with him. Morris had a legendary season with us, but it was one year.) Did I miss anyone?

but that's part of the reason I love having Correa here: he's a truly great player. 

[nicksaviking]

35 minutes ago, rv78 said:

Is this sarcasm? Because if you are happy watching a team that prioritizes .500 baseball over a Championship, even just 1, then you will never see that Championship. 

I figured the negative tone of the paragraph that preceded that made it clear I was not on board with that train of though.

[ashbury]

12 hours ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

France hit the ball very hard last year,  but was unlucky, similar type player to Kepler,

In what way do you see them as similar?  Body types are not similar, defensive positions are not similar, Kepler has lower success on balls hit in play but has shown a higher peak for home run power and he walks more.  Except for the fact they both play baseball and neither one is a pitcher, the two are not comps that I would have picked for one another.

4 hours ago, rv78 said:

Is this sarcasm? Because if you are happy watching a team that prioritizes .500 baseball over a Championship, even just 1, then you will never see that Championship. 

[KirbyDome89]

5 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

One thing I do think is worth pointing out in these "floor" conversations is that a roster with depth is a major component to a successful season.  I don't have an issue with this team adding veterans that provide specific, needed skills to the roster.  

There seems to be a lot of False Dilemma going on in the last week.  As someone who has stood tall to play more Nick Gordon, Matt Wallner, Eddy Julien, and many others....I appreciate the concern that we don't want to block young players.  Like many of you, I'm old enough to remember how we wasted huge chunks of our available resources on guys like Rondell White.  That concern resonates with me.

But there is a balancing act between providing opportunity and leaving yourself pressing prospects who aren't ready into professional games.  We can do both.  Harrison Bader doesn't mean E-Rod will never see the light of day.  Columbe doesn't mean Varland should get a job at Kwik Trip.  I promise....we can do both.

Concur, but the when/how/why needs to be part of the calculus here too. 

[bean5302]

6 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

It's not, for the reason you cited in your last sentence. They can't stash him to start the season. This isn't a Tim Beckham break glass in case of emergency type deal. 

No, it really is. Lots of MiLB contracts have opt outs, man.

[KirbyDome89]

16 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

No, it really is. Lots of MiLB contracts have opt outs, man.

Those players also stick in the organization by playing in the minors. This deal is active roster or bust is it not?

[Mark G]

10 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

Correa could still make it, depending on how his legs hold up. people are giving Jimmy Rollins serious consideration (his vote totals have gone up every year) and Correa has similar bWAR in half the games played. But it's very hard to find Hall-worthy players; the Hall of Famers that have played for the Twins for more than a season or three in the last 40 years is pretty short: Mauer, Puckett. (It was nice that Molitor ended his career here, but does anyone think of him as a Twins Hall of Famer? It was great that Winfield got his 3000 hit here, but people think of the Padres or the Yankees with him. Morris had a legendary season with us, but it was one year.) Did I miss anyone?

but that's part of the reason I love having Correa here: he's a truly great player. 

Can we go back more than 40 years and include Blyleven and Kaat?  (especially because Blyleven2011 brought it up). 🤭

[Riverbrian]

21 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I wasn't thinking about trades, but that's a good point. And I don't think many of us considered those guys "low risk, low reward." The FO has taken some swings, and I appreciate that, but it feels like they did half the job and now have been taking fewer and fewer real swings. The payroll certainly plays a part in that, but my argument has been that the 33ish mil spent on a handful of "low risk, low reward" vets could be better spent on a bigger swing and pre-arb guys.

I categorize Vazquez as "high risk, low reward." I think that was pretty much the feeling around most of the industry when that contract was announced because it was reported for a while before he signed that he didn't want to come here, and after he signed it was pretty universally accepted that he came here because they were the only team to offer him a 3rd year and were by far the biggest contract. If they signed him for about 5 a year like the rest of the glove only guys get he'd be more of the "low risk, low reward" signing. Instead he was the worst type of contract (like Gallo) of "high risk, low reward."

There's logic in their strategy. One can make a solid enough argument for most every player they've brought in (including Gallo and Margot). I don't think anyone is saying there's no logic in anything they do or there's no good reason at all for any of these individual moves, some of us just prefer the higher variance methods that come with the increased chance of being great. I always say I'd prefer a team that can be anywhere from 75 to 95 wins over the team that's in the 80 to 85 win range. Not everyone agrees, and that's why we all come on here and share our thoughts.

Ideally... They would develop their own catching and therefore not NEED to spend 10 million for 3 years on a position that plays 60% of the time at most. 

Ideally... they would develop excess catching that could be traded like Moreno or Ruiz. Taking advantage of the other teams that failed to develop their own catching and are forced to pay I have nowhere else to go airport prices because they didn't eat before they took their shoes and belt off for TSA screening.   

 

[TwinsDr2021]

16 hours ago, NYCTK said:

 

Martin sucks, which is why he dropped off of top 100 prospect lists before he debuted and why failed to show any real skill in the major leagues.

And Wallner was handed a starting job at the start of the season and proceeded to strike out in half his at bats. Yeah, he was kept down in AAA for a few weeks longer than he otherwise would have in AAA but he played himself into becoming the starter, thus proving he wasn't blocked. 

 

Here is what you considered Handed the starting job.

First series of the season (KC) - 1, 1, 4 at bats

Second series (Mil) -  1, 0 at bats

Third series (Clev) - 1, 2, 0

fourth series (LAD) -  1, 4, 0

fifth series(Det) - 1,5,3,0

sixth series (Bal) - 1 and then gone

That is 26 at bats in 17 games, did the Twins really hand him the job?

By 4/15 (Wallners last game) Margot had 34(.189/.286/.270) and Martin had 29 (.242/.306/.333), Castro had 40 and was slashing .111/.231/.200 when Wallner was sent down.

Castro and AK were the starting left fielder in games 1 and 2 on the the Wallner started in right game 2 and got one at bat.

He wasn't handed the job it seems he was just filling in until Larnach got there. (I get it he sucked but so was everybody else)

[NYCTK]

5 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Here is what you considered Handed the starting job.

First series of the season (KC) - 1, 1, 4 at bats

Second series (Mil) -  1, 0 at bats

Third series (Clev) - 1, 2, 0

fourth series (LAD) -  1, 4, 0

fifth series(Det) - 1,5,3,0

sixth series (Bal) - 1 and then gone

That is 26 at bats in 17 games, did the Twins really hand him the job?

By 4/15 (Wallners last game) Margot had 34(.189/.286/.270) and Martin had 29 (.242/.306/.333), Castro had 40 and was slashing .111/.231/.200 when Wallner was sent down.

Castro and AK were the starting left fielder in games 1 and 2 on the the Wallner started in right game 2 and got one at bat.

He wasn't handed the job it seems he was just filling in until Larnach got there. (I get it he sucked but so was everybody else)

Fair. Looks like they started Castro in LF on opening day. Can't blame the Twins for the lack of confidence. If you're striking out in half your plate appearances and also suck on defense, yeah, you're gonna see less playing time. 

[mluebker]

Looks to me like doing something for the sake of looking like they're doing something in order to placate the fans.

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Ideally... They would develop their own catching and therefore not NEED to spend 10 million for 3 years on a position that plays 60% of the time at most. 

Ideally... they would develop excess catching that could be traded like Moreno or Ruiz. Taking advantage of the other teams that failed to develop their own catching and are forced to pay I have nowhere else to go airport prices because they didn't eat before they took their shoes and belt off for TSA screening.   

That's going to be really difficult. If it was easy to develop catchers, then there would be a lot more options available in free agency. There aren't that many people who can hit major league pitching AND have a low pop time to 2B.

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, DJL44 said:

That's going to be really difficult. If it was easy to develop catchers, then there would be a lot more options available in free agency. There aren't that many people who can hit major league pitching AND have a low pop time to 2B.

Understood and I won't argue your point. If it was easy... we wouldn't have the catching market pricing that exists. The market pricing that pays Vazquez 30 million over 3 years.  

However, food for thought.

A. Why does the catcher have to hit major league pitching and have a low pop time to 2B? Vazquez may have that low pop time to 2B but he can't hit. Why is the expectation for a pre-arb catcher that he provides both of these things when we don't ask Vazquez for this and pay him 10 million? There are roughly 60 MLB catching jobs at all times of the season. The talent level in those 60 jobs ranges Adley to Liam Hicks. We don't have to develop Will Smith. It's a dial... not a switch.  

B. The Dodgers don't seem to have a problem developing catchers drafting at the end of each round. Will Smith came from their system. They also developed Ruiz and traded him to help acquire Trae Turner and Max Scherzer. Connor Wong was traded to help acquire Mookie Betts. Cartaya has spilled overboard and is now on our 40 man roster. Camargo is also on our 40 man roster taking up precious space for the 2nd straight year... we shouldn't forget that Camargo was also acquired in a trade from the Dodgers catching factory and he was someone who helped acquire Mookie Betts and Brusdar. And they are still sitting with Feduccia and Rushing in their system.

It's a dial not a switch. I don't expect the Twins to all of sudden match the output of the Dodgers but they should strive to get there because of the market prices being paid for catchers. For the moment...  I'll lower my expectations to the bare minimum... I'll lower my expectations to just settle for one guy who doesn't cost 10 million to play behind the plate who can catch, frame, pop time, arm strength and it's ok if he hits just as poorly as Vazquez does. We can spend that 10 million elsewhere. 

I don't think I'm asking for that much. 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

It's a dial not a switch. I don't expect the Twins to all of sudden match the output of the Dodgers but they should strive to get there because of the market prices being paid for catchers.

I think teams should lean into what they are good at. The Twins don't have the $$ to be good at everything. If they're good at identifying and developing pitching and outfielders, then that's what they should do. They do need to be able to trade some of those pitchers and outfielders for talent at other positions to balance out the roster.

[Karbo]

On 2/12/2025 at 7:05 AM, DaveW44 said:

Do we really not have anyone in the minors who can put up the stats we are expecting from Ty France? A mediocre fielder who hasn’t hit well in 3 years. I can feel the excitement building for the regular season. 

An article in The Athletic says France signed a non-guaranteed contract. Maybe he won't stick around long enough to block some of the others in the system, unless he hits like he did a couple of years ago.

[Riverbrian]

43 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I think teams should lean into what they are good at. The Twins don't have the $$ to be good at everything. If they're good at identifying and developing pitching and outfielders, then that's what they should do. They do need to be able to trade some of those pitchers and outfielders for talent at other positions to balance out the roster.

Leaning into what they are good at is something that we all do in all walks of life... yet while I suck at fixing the screen door when it breaks. That thing is going to break someday and I'm going to have to grab a tool of some sort and get better at it or pay $300 dollars for that screen door guy to come track mud in my house.    

What I'm about to say... will seem like a cheap shot... it's not. Right now... they appear to be doing OK at developing pitching and they appear to be horrible at developing left handed hitters who can hit left handed pitching and now we are paying every single year for that screen door guy. 

I'll add... I'm not sure that they are horrible at developing left handed hitters who can hit left handed pitching. I'm suggesting that I think it's quite possible that they are not even trying to grab a wrench, scratch awl or swiss army knife to fix that screen door. They are just calling the screen door guy. 

[Linus]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

I think teams should lean into what they are good at. The Twins don't have the $$ to be good at everything. If they're good at identifying and developing pitching and outfielders, then that's what they should do. They do need to be able to trade some of those pitchers and outfielders for talent at other positions to balance out the roster.

But are they really good at developing pitching and outfielders?  9 years and our outfielders prize is Larnach and Wallner? Pitching is Ober, Jax and Sands?  To me this is their big problem - IMO they aren’t really good at player development.  Hence hey we can plug this hole with Ty France or Harrison Bader.

[RpR]

2 hours ago, Karbo said:

An article in The Athletic says France signed a non-guaranteed contract. Maybe he won't stick around long enough to block some of the others in the system, unless he hits like he did a couple of years ago.

Block - LOL.

[TheLeviathan]

17 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Concur, but the when/how/why needs to be part of the calculus here too. 

Agreed, but that's why I understand the France complaints and am mystified by the Bader ones.  Bader clearly fits.

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, Linus said:

But are they really good at developing pitching and outfielders?  9 years and our outfielders prize is Larnach and Wallner? Pitching is Ober, Jax and Sands?  To me this is their big problem - IMO they aren’t really good at player development.  Hence hey we can plug this hole with Ty France or Harrison Bader.

All they seem to be good at is developing pitching by adding velocity and teaching a slider. That's a decent thing to be good at but it's not enough. Being better than everyone else at something is really hard. That's why having more money than other teams is a consistent advantage.