Eric Blonigen Twins Daily Contributor Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 Over the past month, the Twins bullpen has proven to be quite leaky, leading to several heart-wrenching late-inning losses. With their trio of rookie starters wearing down, the Twins have relied on their bullpen heavily. As they claimed lefty starter Cole Irvin from the Orioles, someone had to be sent down. Somewhat inexplicably, that person was Jorge Alcalá, the Twins’ fourth-best reliever. Why do the Twins hate Alcalá, and what do they see that the average fan doesn’t? Image courtesy of © Jay Biggerstaff-Imagn Images The news hit the wire with a thwack: the roster casualty for the arrival of lefty swingman Cole Irvin Tuesday will be erstwhile setup man Jorge Alcalá, rather than any of the struggling youngsters or fungible veterans who populate the roster. Throughout his career, Alcalá has been generally good, when healthy. The problem is that he has rarely been healthy for protracted stretches. This season marks the first time since 2021 he’s been able to pitch a full season. He’s responded by producing a 3.46 ERA across 54 innings. While his peripherals are a mixed bag (3.28 xERA, 4.38 FIP, 23.3 K%, 8.5 BB%), Alcalá has gotten the job done the majority of the time, and has been used in high-leverage spots for much of the season. Despite this, the Twins have handled Alcalá curiously for someone with his background and potential. In some ways, his usage has been similar to a waiver pickup or minor-league signing. This is seen in a couple of ways: his volume, and his optioning. Workload As mentioned above, Alcalá has had arm problems throughout his career. In 2022 and 2023, he was limited to just 19 2/3 big-league innings combined. Rather than being brought back slowly this spring, however, he was used aggressively. In April and May, he threw two innings in appearances on five different occasions. In June, he threw on back-to-back days no fewer than five times, despite eclipsing his innings total since 2021 by the middle of that month. Including his innings in the minors, he’s at 63 1/3--the highest he's posted since moving to the bullpen in 2020--with (hopefully) six weeks left in the season. Shuttled Despite his reasonably strong results, Alcalá has repeatedly been one of the first arms sent down when a roster spot is needed. Yesterday’s news marks the third time Alcalá has been sent down this season. He was also optioned on Apr. 14 and on May 8. You might assume this was due to poor performance. You would be wrong. His stat line when he was first sent down included a 0.00 ERA, a 2.67 FIP, and two strikeouts in two innings. The Twins just decided they needed the roster spot. After being called up on May 4, he pitched in two more games. The second was an implosion, and he was sent back down. On May 26, he was called up to the Twins again, where he remained until yesterday. Yes, his results have suffered over the past few weeks, with a 1.43 WHIP. Yes, he has allowed runs in five of his last eight appearances. That’s not good. He’s probably still more reliable than pitchers like Scott Blewett, Caleb Thielbar, and Michael Tonkin, and he obviously has much better raw stuff. In 2021, he was similarly inconsistent, but spent the whole season with the big-league team. What has changed? Why do they seem not to view him as sometimes a secondary setup man and other times a low-leverage fill-in, but rather, as either that setup-caliber arm or something less than a big-league hurler? The Saints' season is over at the end of this week. Is this move to give Alcalá rest? Given his health concerns, this could be wise, particularly if they don’t want him to throw but don't want to put him on the injured list. Or, does this signal something else? A desire to move one of Zebby Matthews or David Festa to the bullpen? Is it possible that Jorge Alcalá is no longer in the Twins' future plans? A lot may be revealed by Cole Irvin’s early usage and performance, and the decisions that follow. Because he was not on the roster prior to Sept. 1, Irvin will not be eligible for a potential playoff roster. It Alcalá rejoins the Twins for the Wild Card Series, it’s safe to assume this is a rest for him and a tryout for someone else. The next two weeks will be telling. View full article
LambchoP Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 Dumb move. Sure, he's struggled lately, but he pitched a perfect two innings last weekend while hitting 101 mph. I'd still rather see him out there than Tonkin or Theilbar. I get that he's coming off injury, but then why does Rocco always have him throwing two innings when he excels in Max effort one inning stints. If we make the playoffs, Im guessing he'll be back since Irvin isn't eligible for postseason. I'm guessing they just claimed him as a long reliever to pitch after Zebby Festa and Sim only go 3 or 4 innings. Althebum82, NYCTK, DocBauer and 4 others 7
TopGunn#22 Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 Nothing this FO or ownership or manager does nowadays inspires much confidence in me. I understand they are much smarter than me. Goodness, they have spreadsheet after spreadsheet to prove it. mikelink45, Old Crow, NYCTK and 5 others 4 4
old nurse Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 It would look to me to be workload management There seems to be a lot of pitchers getting on the worn down side after pitching more innings than they ever have before. That is what happens when you have a staff of either developing or oft injured pitchers ToddlerHarmon, Linus, gman and 4 others 7
DJL44 Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 How many times has Varland been optioned already this season? You can only go down 5 times. I can understand why they may want to save Zebby's options for 2025-27. Quote He’s probably still more reliable than pitchers like Scott Blewett, Caleb Thielbar, and Michael Tonkin None of them have options. Jocko87, BH67, roger and 2 others 5
Maybebaby Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 Seems to me any move related to the bullpen, live games or otherwise, seem to backfire these last 2 months. They just do not have a very good staff at this point in time. Even if they do qualify for the playoffs like Reusse states time and time again they won't last long. TopGunn#22 and Old Crow 2
chpettit19 Community Moderator Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 7 minutes ago, DJL44 said: How many times has Varland been optioned already this season? You can only go down 5 times. I can understand why they may want to save Zebby's options for 2025-27. None of them have options. I'd hope they aren't worried about options for Blewett, Tonkin, or Thielbar if they aren't one of their 14 best pitchers. They have 12 games left. Optioning vs DFAing shouldn't be a consideration anymore. It's time to get your 28 best players on the roster and stop this collapse. I assume this means they thought the current arms give them their best chance to win during the next 2 weeks. I wouldn't agree, but I have to think that's their thought process. Or they already have a plan for another arm to get hurt after throwing 3 or 4 innings in the next week and bringing Alcala back. Even if that's frowned upon by the rules and would be an incredibly bold move to make. Richie the Rally Goat, Mike Sixel, Doctor Gast and 9 others 12
JD-TWINS Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 12 minutes ago, DJL44 said: How many times has Varland been optioned already this season? You can only go down 5 times. I can understand why they may want to save Zebby's options for 2025-27. None of them have options. Zebby is THE 5th starter - can’t move him - he’s starting today and again on Sunday - and so on………….Thielbar - Blewett - Tonkin have no options. Hopefully, Alcala will be rested and ready come October……..it’s a calculated risk with Irvin!! roger and DocBauer 2
Riverbrian Old-Timey Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 1 hour ago, old nurse said: It would look to me to be workload management There seems to be a lot of pitchers getting on the worn down side after pitching more innings than they ever have before. That is what happens when you have a staff of either developing or oft injured pitchers Maybe... I think you bring up a potential issue. However... on the other hand. Those Tigers have a 17-9 record and a 2.82 ERA in the past 30 days. They are youth from top to bottom right now. All the Vets were traded away at the deadline. Maeda the one vet that they couldn't trade has been minimized to mere occasional work. Same thing on the other side with the offense. Nothing but youth sparking this run. Our problems may not be that simple. NYCTK, stringer bell, Hosken Bombo Disco and 9 others 12
JD-TWINS Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 48 minutes ago, LambchoP said: Dumb move. Sure, he's struggled lately, but he pitched a perfect two innings last weekend while hitting 101 mph. I'd still rather see him out there than Tonkin or Theilbar. I get that he's coming off injury, but then why does Rocco always have him throwing two innings when he excels in Max effort one inning stints. If we make the playoffs, Im guessing he'll be back since Irvin isn't eligible for postseason. I'm guessing they just claimed him as a long reliever to pitch after Zebby Festa and Sim only go 3 or 4 innings. “……always has him throwing 2 innings” is not correct. He was THE 7th inning guy for a good stretch of time. Texas massacre happened in 9 pitches, a 4-0 lead gone. Relief Saturday in Ober’s start, walk on 5-6 pitches to load bases - then 1st pitch grand slam. There was no ominous 2nd inning of work in either of these games. The poster here says he’s given up runs in 5 of last 8 appearances. To me, that tells more of the story than 6 outs against the Reds on Sunday. He looked good Sunday in a two inning stint with a 9-2 lead. My assumption is he’s not the most mentally stable guy in the Pen?? It’s a guess but often a player sends negativity off the field. Is he tired - is he mentally tired? Is he a knucklehead? I don’t know. I do know that the organization wants to do well and if them optioning him (probably due to needed break) is what they see as best course of action, I accept it even if it isn’t crystal clear. LambchoP, Richie the Rally Goat, roger and 1 other 3 1
LambchoP Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 Maybe he just needs a break in AAA for awhile. If he can rest up and come back for the playoffs ready and willing then I'm fine with it. The flip side is, we need to GET to the playoffs first. Do we think the bullpen is up to the task without him? I kind of doubt it .... Richie the Rally Goat, Doctor Gast, Shaitan and 1 other 4
Rick Blaine Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 I agree odd choice. I would have thought Louie Varland would have been sent down as his performance has been atrocious. mikelink45, Althebum82, DJL44 and 3 others 5 1
Hosken Bombo Disco Community Moderator Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 Alcala just pitched two scoreless innings. Unreal stuff going on. Doctor Gast 1
USAFChief Twins Daily Contributor Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 There has to be more to the story. Gonna guess Alcala is in someone's doghouse. Richie the Rally Goat, Jocko87, Althebum82 and 1 other 4
DocBauer Old-Timey Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 If this is a move designed to throw other arms for the next week or so and let him rest his arm a bit...a calculated risk to be sure...I can sort of get the move. Anything other than that is just a very poor handling of an asset like Alcala. But then again, they've done this constantly, as the OP points out. You should have one if your best 13 arms on your staff. The very fact Alcala has been healthy all season is a reason to celebrate. Instead, the Twins insisted on using him like a middle reliever despite barely throwing for 2 years. And now he's tiring? What a surprise. Terrible mismanagement of an excellent arm. One of your top 4-5. Come on guys! That's not how to properly run a pen. Use middle guys as middle guys and short, powerful arms in short, powerful later innings. HelmetTip, weneedneshek, Strombomb and 5 others 8
NYCTK Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 Thank GOD we kept Tonkin. What would we do if we DFAd him and someone else picked him up...again. chpettit19, Doctor Gast, Road trip and 2 others 1 4
jorgenswest Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 1 hour ago, Eric Blonigen said: Why do the Twins hate Alcalá Seems like an irresponsible take. Jocko87, DJL44, BH67 and 5 others 5 2 1
TwinsDr2021 Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 This year he has only blown 1 of 17 chances, prior to this year he had blown 6 of 20, he like all relief pitchers are bound to have bad outings. Jax this year has blown 6 of 38, and prior to this year 6 of 25 and 7 of 34. which means IMO he is going to blow a save somewhere between every 4 to 6 attempts. Expecting them to be perfect every single time is a fool's errand. DJL44 1
NYCTK Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 55 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said: Zebby is THE 5th starter - can’t move him - Idk man, maybe the inability to replace a SP that has an 8 ERA and a 1.000 OPS over 5 starts is bad, and he should in fact be moved. Mortimerkenny21, USAFChief, TwinsDr2021 and 2 others 4 1
Riverbrian Old-Timey Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 Options are a powerful thing. Alcala can be sent down so he is. Pagan can have the same results with no options and stay for the year. In this particular case and context Stuff wise... I'd keep him up and utilize him a lot. Results wise... Umm... Jeez... I don't know. We don't have a lot of room for crooked numbers being hung.
chpettit19 Community Moderator Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 7 minutes ago, Riverbrian said: Options are a powerful thing. Alcala can be sent down so he is. Pagan can have the same results with no options and stay for the year. In this particular case and context Stuff wise... I'd keep him up and utilize him a lot. Results wise... Umm... Jeez... We don't have a lot of room for crooked numbers being hung. I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hope they aren't considering options with 12 games left to play and their playoff lives hanging in the balance. If you lose Blewett, Tonking, or Thielbar on waivers (they likely wouldn't) and a guy goes down with 6 games left, so be it. If they knowingly sacrificed talent because that talent has options and the lack of talent guys don't they really are as incompetent as some say. I hope this decision was made completely on who they think gives them the best chance to win as many games as possible for the next 2 weeks and nothing else. Richie the Rally Goat, TopGunn#22, TwinsDr2021 and 1 other 4
NYCTK Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 1 hour ago, old nurse said: It would look to me to be workload management There seems to be a lot of pitchers getting on the worn down side after pitching more innings than they ever have before. The Twins organization loser mentality has really permeated the fanbase. Jorge isn't some 22 year old that's just learning how to be a professional athlete. He's 29! HelmetTip, gman, TwinsDr2021 and 1 other 2 2
bean5302 Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 This move makes no sense to me on the surface. The Twins have optioned Alcala in peculiar decisions earlier this year as well. I suppose Minnesota has control over him, but it wouldn't surprise me for him to ask to be traded at this point as the organization's moves feel almost abusive. Alcala will be available for recall on 10/2, which will be after game 1 of the playoffs. Will he be added to the playoff roster despite not being available for the first game of potentially a 2 game series?
LA Vikes Fan Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 55 minutes ago, Riverbrian said: Maybe... I think you bring up a potential issue. However... on the other hand. Those Tigers have a 17-9 record and a 2.82 ERA in the past 30 days. They are youth from top to bottom right now. All the Vets were traded away at the deadline. Maeda the one vet that they couldn't trade has been minimized to mere occasional work. Same thing on the other side with the offense. Nothing but youth sparking this run. Our problems may not be that simple. It pains me out say this as someone who has advocated for more playing time for some of our young players, but RiverBrian may be correct. I think we simply may have overestimated the talent of these young guys or at least where they are in terms of development. It's becoming more and more obvious that Lewis and Wallner may have high upsides but are a long way from being able to consistently provide value, particularly Lewis. Larnach looks like he might be a solid platoon outfielder, but doesn't look like he will ever be much more than that. Castro had a nice run early in the season but he is what he is, a utility player will give you something like a .240 to .250 average, decent but not elite defense in three or four positions, occasional power, some speed, and a roughly .725 OPS. In other words, a nice 10th man but not a starter on a contending team. Miranda's future is becoming muddier by the day with a range from solid everyday player to benchwarmer, but not a middle of the order bat. I would tend to give the young pitching a bit of a pass because they're getting more run than expected, but it's hard to see any of them other than SWR providing value next year and only Alcala from the group of young relievers looking like he might have any sort of short term impact. In other words, this "emerging core" I thought we might have is looking less and less like the basis for contending team. After watching the last month (cue recency bias) and thinking about the fact that this team is likely to use these young guys next year and not pick up any more veteran talent, I see the Twins potentially taking a pretty significant step back next year and falling behind Cleveland, Kansas City, and Detroit. It's amazing what six weeks can do to one's outlook. HelmetTip, DJL44 and NYCTK 2 1
NYCTK Verified Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 2 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said: Wallner may have high upsides but are a long way from being able to consistently provide value, Wallner is the type of player that will NEVER be able to consistently provide value. That's the tradeoff you get with a 33% K rate and poor defense. He can go on absolute tears and single handedly win games...then hit .120 over the next 100 PAs while hurting you in the field. 3 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said: Castro...a nice 10th man but not a starter on a contending team. I really do like him, but yeah. The fact he's got the most PAs on the team isn't really an indictment cause his flexibility should allow that to happen, but people here were talking about a big contract extension around the ASB and that talk looks ridiculous now. LewFordLives and gman 1 1
Mike Sixel Old-Timey Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 19 minutes ago, chpettit19 said: I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hope they aren't considering options with 12 games left to play and their playoff lives hanging in the balance. If you lose Blewett, Tonking, or Thielbar on waivers (they likely wouldn't) and a guy goes down with 6 games left, so be it. If they knowingly sacrificed talent because that talent has options and the lack of talent guys don't they really are as incompetent as some say. I hope this decision was made completely on who they think gives them the best chance to win as many games as possible for the next 2 weeks and nothing else. This. Seriously. TwinsDr2021 1
Riverbrian Old-Timey Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said: I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hope they aren't considering options with 12 games left to play and their playoff lives hanging in the balance. If you lose Blewett, Tonking, or Thielbar on waivers (they likely wouldn't) and a guy goes down with 6 games left, so be it. If they knowingly sacrificed talent because that talent has options and the lack of talent guys don't they really are as incompetent as some say. I hope this decision was made completely on who they think gives them the best chance to win as many games as possible for the next 2 weeks and nothing else. I don't know... don't they always have to consider options if it's a player with a 100 plus heater. Pagan had stuff with poor results. Alcala has stuff and his results have been poor a few times. Alcala doesn't pass through waivers. White Sox grab him. TopGunn#22 1
Mike Sixel Old-Timey Member Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 3 minutes ago, Riverbrian said: I don't know... don't they always have to consider options if it's a player with a 100 plus heater. Pagan had stuff with poor results. Alcala has stuff and his results have been poor a few times. Alcala doesn't pass through waivers. White Sox grab him. I think his point is to DFA worse players and not worry about losing them at this point. Richie the Rally Goat, chpettit19, TopGunn#22 and 3 others 6
chpettit19 Community Moderator Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 4 minutes ago, Riverbrian said: I don't know... don't they always have to consider options if it's a player with a 100 plus heater. Pagan had stuff with poor results. Alcala has stuff and his results have been poor a few times. Alcala doesn't pass through waivers. White Sox grab him. In general, yes, they should use options on talented guys instead of DFAing the talented guy, but my point was that choosing Alcala as the guy to go away for Irvin shouldn't have been about him having options and other guys not. He shouldn't have been demoted simply because he has options. He should only have been the one sent packing if he was the one deemed to provide the least amount of help on the field for the next 12 games. Mike Sixel, TwinsDr2021, gman and 3 others 6
chpettit19 Community Moderator Posted September 17, 2024 Posted September 17, 2024 25 minutes ago, bean5302 said: This move makes no sense to me on the surface. The Twins have optioned Alcala in peculiar decisions earlier this year as well. I suppose Minnesota has control over him, but it wouldn't surprise me for him to ask to be traded at this point as the organization's moves feel almost abusive. Alcala will be available for recall on 10/2, which will be after game 1 of the playoffs. Will he be added to the playoff roster despite not being available for the first game of potentially a 2 game series? Do the recall rules apply there? I'm not sure if that's a regular season only rule or not. Wouldn't be surprised if that rule ends after game 162 and it moves over to the playoff roster rules at that point with no concern for if or when a player had been optioned. But I'm not real clear on the intricacies of that rule. Richie the Rally Goat and DJL44 2
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