Twins 8, Dodgers 9 (12 Innings): Back and Forth Battle Ultimately Ends with a Loss

[zenser]

I missed the Peralta double.  Is there a good video of that?  I have heard it was very questionable.  I was watching the AK at bat live.  That was just flat out terrible.

[UK Twin]

8 minutes ago, Whitey333 said:

I agree with all the negativity directed at the umpires.  Cuzzi is, and always has been one of the worst umpires in MLB.  That being said, all you hear Baldelli talking about is how the umpiring cost them the game. That is the Twins refrain.  If you lose a close game blame it on the umpires.  What about leaving 15 runners on base?  What about a woefil 4-17 with runners in scoring position?  What about bases loaded and no outs in the 10th and only scoring one run? And that was on a walk.  What about the winning run scoring on a bases loaded walk?  He was in an 0-30 slump.  How can you not throw strikes to him?  How about a lineup that features Gallo at leadoff.  Leadoff mind you is not where a lifetime. 199 hitter should be in the batting order.  Go

4-17 is .235. That's not woeful. It's not great either though. Gallo's hitting lead off because his OBP is pretty good. And it was to shake up the Twins lineup which has actually worked. Since Gallo has batted lead off with Kirilloff 2nd the Twins have scored 11, 16 and 8 runs in 3 games. 

[terrydactyls]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

And you wonder why abuse towards officials/umpires happen? This is why. Total crap that twins lost as umpires won game for dodgers-robot umpires/officials need to happen in all sports. 

I hope that you are referring to professional umpires/referees and not the others.  And I also hope you meant verbal abuse only.  If not, then your comment is repugnant.

[Nine of twelve]

23 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

If you need a challenge system it would be for a human umpire to overturn the electronic system, not the other way around. For instance, an electronic strike zone set at the front of the plate does not know if the pitch bounced before it crosses the plate.

The umpires would overrule the call on their own. No challenge needed.

[Riverbrian]

50 minutes ago, UK Twin said:

I agree but this is Manfred we're talking about. And I suspect the Umpire's Association will strongly oppose to an electronic strike zone. The ability to challenge calls could be the compromise.

People fixing potholes, find it easier to do their jobs with a jackhammer. It's a lot harder to fix that pothole without a jackhammer. 

An electronic strike zone is a tool to help them do their jobs easier and better.  

For the life of me, I don't understand why Umpires would be apposed to an electronic strike zone. There will still be a home plate umpire so there is no loss of jobs.  

I assume that umpires don't want to miss calls ever and I assume that they know they do. This would be a tool to help them. 

Grill, Smrill... This fire will cook this steak just fine after I rub these two sticks together. 

  

 

 

 

[VivaBomboRivera!]

26 minutes ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

And if a mouse had wings, he could fly.

The HRs were given up by (Pedro) Lopez alone, and are no reflection on the rest of the team's performance.

Lopez is a big, big reason why the Twins have been in first place since the season began. We can forgive him a rough day every now and then.

[Nine of twelve]

35 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

I had to dive a little deeper into the umpires.  Here is process for grading umpires..  The report on ESPN said, "These numbers do not square with the metrics provided by independent evaluators. UmpScores said the best home-plate umpire in baseball last year, Tripp Gibson, graded out around 93.6% accurate. Four umpires last season, according to UmpScores, missed on more than 10% of pitches they called for balls and strikes." 

His accuracy is 26% below expected.  How can that be accepted?

What's even more telling than Cuzzi's poor grade is Gibson's grade. The best human pitch-caller is about 94% accurate. I don't have a citation for this, but it's my understanding that electronic systems have been more accurate than that for many years. As said before, there is no good reason not to replace human pitch callers with electronic ones.

[roger]

Didn't see the game, but always disappointing when the umpires get involved in the outcome of the game.  

I will never understand why some plays ARE NOT reviewable.  Why isn't a foul ball reviewable in some situations?  Makes absolutely no sense.

I also hope that the ABS challenge system isn't the one brought forward, although I expect that is what will happen.  Why should there be a limit on correcting ball and strike calls by the umpire?  In some games there are so many bad calls that are wrong.  Is a wrong ball/strike call early in the game that a player doesn't challenge any less important?  Not to my eyes.  If the technology is there, use it and get all calls right.

[Hyvuss]

Might as well jump on the Cuzzi bandwagon (hatewagon). Here's a screenshot of the two altering pitches of the game, side by side. Look to be in the same place.

That being said: can't blame the loss solely on bad officiating. If anything, this is a good loss (!?!) with the team showing some fight. I feel better about this loss than earlier when the team was struggling to score any runs. 

 

[Muppet]

If there was ever a loss to be excited about, this was it. The Twins, who have been unable to hit most of the year, came back and nearly beat the best team they've played. Most people contributed, a lot of the runs given up were due to bad luck rather than bad pitching, and they kept going after Cuzzball tried to hand the Dodgers the win. That was the kind of intensity we'd expect from a playoff game. 

Let's hope Ober can get a complete game today. 

[jmlease1]

59 minutes ago, John Belinski said:

It is really disappointing to lose a game like this when Twins have bases loaded and no outs, but do not score a run. Then Rocco makes another great statement when he said J Lopez pitched a good game, but any pitcher that walks in the winning run did not pitch good.  There is just NO excuse for walking in the winning run plus the batter hasn't had a hit for 2 or 3 weeks. Just throw a fastball down the middle.  Who calls the pitches? 

I don't really understand this kind of comment. Do you expect Rocco to rip his own players in the post-game? That's just not how modern managing works. It's always been super-overrated as a motivational tactic, and ends up being counter-productive.

Who calls the pitches? that would be the catcher. Lopez did a great job in the 11th, and couldn't quite hold it in the 12th when he didn't get a borderline call on the 5th pitch of the AB (considering Cuzzi's "strike zone"). It's not like he couldn't find the strike zone at all.

[USAFChief]

Cuzzi missed two calls, but blaming the umpire for last night's loss misses the real reasons.

 

 

[silverslugger]

By definition, wouldn't an electronic system be 100% accurate.  Unless, of course, it is broken.  You set up a system, or metric.  The system can only respond according to how it is set up.  The "system" is going to call a strike a strike and a ball a ball based on the metric that is predetermined.  Also, in computing the human "error", it has to be based on a similar predetermined system.  It's not another human with human flaws that gets to relook at the pitch and decide whether or not it is a strike.

[Mortimerkenny21]

2 hours ago, Peter said:

And you wonder why abuse towards officials/umpires happen?

 

36 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

And I also hope you meant verbal abuse only.  If not, then your comment is repugnant.

I don't think he was promoting going fist to cuffs with a little league or high school umpire. Or any Umpire. That would be a poor life choice.

[minman1982]

Even though it ended with a loss, I am pleased with the outcome of the game. After going down 5-1, it would have been easy for the Twins just to call it a night and it felt like this game was going to be a blow-out. I am happy that the team rallied back and made it a good game. The Dodgers are one of the better teams in MLB and have been for a while. 

The Kiriloff strikeout in the tenth was just deflating. It felt like they had an opportunity to get another couple of runs that inning or possibly blow the game open. If the first pitch is correctly called a ball, I don't think Kiriloff swings at the second pitch (why would you swing at 1-0 with a pitcher who is clearly having control issues?). I also probably give Kiriloff the green light on 1-1 with a one run lead, bases loaded, and one out in the tenth. The third pitch was an absolute garbage call. Catcher sets up outside, pitcher misses several inches inside, not even close. I have to give Kiriloff some credit for not saying something that would get himself kicked out. They did still have a one-run lead and his glove was needed in the field. Sure, the Twins had plenty of other chances but this at bat felt like the classic gut punch that us Minnesota sports fans are accustomed to.

[DJL44]

42 minutes ago, UK Twin said:

4-17 is .235. That's not woeful. It's not great either though. 

It's basically league average. MLB is batting .247 for the season.

[minman1982]

24 minutes ago, Muppet said:

If there was ever a loss to be excited about, this was it. The Twins, who have been unable to hit most of the year, came back and nearly beat the best team they've played. Most people contributed, a lot of the runs given up were due to bad luck rather than bad pitching, and they kept going after Cuzzball tried to hand the Dodgers the win. That was the kind of intensity we'd expect from a playoff game. 

Let's hope Ober can get a complete game today. 

Totally agreed. I feel the Twins matched up well with the Dodgers last night. A couple of bounces (or calls) their way instead of the Dodgers way and they win this game. A mistake pitch to Muncy early on, the "double" down the first base line late in the game, or the Kiriloff at bat in the tenth, if one of those goes the Twins way, they probably get the W last night. That is baseball though. Time to brush off the dirt from last night and play another one tonight.

[joefish]

7 hours ago, VivaBomboRivera! said:

There was a lot to like in spite of the loss:

• The Twins never lay down
• All starters but Gallo reached base at least once; multiple hits for Buck, Polanco and Vasquez
• Better BA (.265 v .244), OBP (.357 v .306) and RISP (4/17 v 2/12) than the Blu Boyz
• Twins hitters rogered the Dodger bullpen
• One steal and two successful pickoffs for the Good Guyz

Take away Muncy's dongs and the Twins win.

Pablo has the first inning yips.

[joefish]

1 hour ago, John Belinski said:

It is really disappointing to lose a game like this when Twins have bases loaded and no outs, but do not score a run. Then Rocco makes another great statement when he said J Lopez pitched a good game, but any pitcher that walks in the winning run did not pitch good.  There is just NO excuse for walking in the winning run plus the batter hasn't had a hit for 2 or 3 weeks. Just throw a fastball down the middle.  Who calls the pitches? 

0 and 2 against JD Martinez with fastballs that he couldn't catch up to and they throw a slab of mystery meat right down the middle. Terrible pitch selection and location.

[terrydactyls]

32 minutes ago, Mortimerkenny21 said:

 

I don't think he was promoting going fist to cuffs with a little league or high school umpire. Or any Umpire. That would be a poor life choice.

Violence against officials of youth sports have been physically attacked quite often.  That is why I questioned his intent.

[Seth Stohs]

I added the Phil Cuzzi Ump Scorecard tweet to the bottom of the article but here it is too. 

 

[2wins87]

52 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Cuzzi missed two calls, but blaming the umpire for last night's loss misses the real reasons.

 

 

The mafia boss holding his family hostage?

I would normally more or less agree with the sentiment, but the umpiring is a very real reason for that particular loss.

The obviously foul "double" is probably the bigger game changer, without which Kirilloff is probably never batting in the 10th.  We can never know what the outcome would have been if Kirilloff had been allowed to have a real at bat there, but the odds are pretty good for at least a sac fly or something.

If they had played the game perfectly they could have overcome the umpiring, but they did a hell of a job coming back several times and nearly overcoming it.  I honestly don't know what the other real reason could be when Twins did do more than enough on their part to win.

[2wins87]

18 minutes ago, Seth Stohs said:

I added the Phil Cuzzi Ump Scorecard tweet to the bottom of the article but here it is too. 

 

Notable that the two Kirilloff calls are not only super impactful, but also the only two clearly outside of the established zone.

Inconsistent, just bad in every way.

[h2oface]

1 hour ago, VivaBomboRivera! said:

The HRs were given up by (Pedro) Lopez alone, and are no reflection on the rest of the team's performance.

Lopez is a big, big reason why the Twins have been in first place since the season began. We can forgive him a rough day every now and then.

So far he is bad 1/3 (3 out of 9 starts) of the time. That is earned and notable, and a good bit more often than “every now and then “ in my book. 

[2wins87]

Moral victories mean nothing in the standings, but my silver lining today is that playing in the AL central, this particular loss is really very unlikely to play a factor in the ultimate success of the season.

My only worry is how the bullpen impact could snowball if they get into another tight one today and Rocco has to decide how much to push his top guys, leading to after effects for a few more games.  Otherwise they need to just keep doing what they've been doing and they will get a chance to beat up on some bad teams soon enough.

[Woof Bronzer]

1 hour ago, silverslugger said:

By definition, wouldn't an electronic system be 100% accurate.  

No.  This has been made clear by the makers of the technology.

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Cuzzi missed two calls, but blaming the umpire for last night's loss misses the real reasons.

 

 

Two highly impactful calls, though. Umps botching it up in high leverage situations is at least as frustrating as players striking out when the bases are loaded or a pitcher walking in a run.

WPA tells a lot about who is most responsible for a win or a loss: last night the worst performers for the Twins were (in order) Alex Kirilloff, Pablo Lopez, and Griffin Jax. How much of Kirilloff's -0.391 should be assigned to Cuzzi? because I'm pretty sure that phantom K in the 10th accounts for a big ol' chunk of it.

[LastOnePicked]

Wasn't Sonny Gray getting these exact calls in his start against the Cubs? I didn't see any complaining from the Twins faithful then. You gotta rise above and win games. The rest is noise. The last thing I want from - or for - this team is to get caught up in the victim mentality. Toughen up. Score runs, Hold leads. Win games. Period.

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Cuzzi missed two calls, but blaming the umpire for last night's loss misses the real reasons.

 

 

I am begging for some sort of strategy for the Manfred man innings! Get that run in.  Every time. 

[mikelink45]

2 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

And if a mouse had wings, he could fly.

Take away the other teams runs and we win!