The Twins Finally Picked a Lane

[Bodie]

"No longer working..."

Interesting phrase to use in relation to anything the Twins have done... well without question since the start of Falvey's reign. 

If by "working" you want to trot out the Bomba squad,  I ask how you expected the Twins to ever cover the payroll of an elite slugging team over any period of time???  No one is overpaid like a slugger, and Minny was never going to be able to keep that train on a Target field track.  

This team hasn't "worked" in a while now.  Literally or figuratively...

[big dog]

The principle is fine here but:

- the people responsible for the fiasco they just blew up are still in charge;

- the returns in some of the trades look well below what should have been expected; and

- rebuilding the team is going to require adding more talent, not just more bodies. Will any of it be major league talent? Are we looking at another Willie Underwood/Hosken Powell/Bombo Rivera era? Will any good free agent want to participate in this?

[ChermesZ]

Just now, big dog said:

Will any good free agent want to participate in this?

Will any good fans want to participate in this too? No stadium give-away can cover this stench.

[big dog]

2 minutes ago, Bodie said:

"No longer working..."

Interesting phrase to use in relation to anything the Twins have done... well without question since the start of Falvey's reign. 

If by "working" you want to trot out the Bomba squad,  I ask how you expected the Twins to ever cover the payroll of an elite slugging team over any period of time???  No one is overpaid like a slugger, and Minny was never going to be able to keep that train on a Target field track.  

This team hasn't "worked" in a while now.  Literally or figuratively...

If someone buys the wrong car, fails to maintain it, and drives it into a tree,  they have to get a new car. However, they also have to switch how the car is maintained and who drives it.

[Finlander]

Unfortunately, it's the southbound lane in northbound traffic.

[David Maro]

They did pick a lane. They fired the players not the manager. They just proved the experts wrong you can fire the players.

[big dog]

Just now, ChermesZ said:

Will any good fans want to participate in this too? No stadium give-away can cover this stench.

C'mon, who doesn't want a James Outman bobblehead?? 

[Nashvilletwin]

The premise that the team wasn’t good enough to win as constructed simply cannot be accepted as true with Rocco at the helm.

Some, myself included, believe that the talent level procured and produced over the last several years had significantly more potential to succeed. That potential never had the chance of being reached because the single person most responsible for attaining that potential could not unlock it.  We will now never know, sadly.

The amount of young talent that was given to Rocco’s charge was immense; yet, once under his stewardship, that talent stagnated or regressed.  Time after time.

Rocco has been the wrong person to lead this team on the field for years. That has been obvious for some time.

Yet, even as late as yesterday, the option to pick a different “lane” existed.  That option was to keep the young controllable talent and find a different manager to lead and develop the team.  That option was summarily rejected by Rocco’s conjoined cohort in the fraud.  The fury of those remaining must be so palatable.

So, the Twins have now picked a “lane”? Well, until Rocco is fired and new managerial  leadership is brought in who can actually develop top minor league talent, nothing will have changed.

If Rocco stays, the “lane” this franchise picked will only continue to lead right over the cliff.

The rebuild should start today.  But it cannot start with Rocco at the helm.  He should be replaced today. Period.

 

[LastOnePicked]

I wanted a rebuild, but I don't think they picked a lane. Selling off long-term controllable assets signals a long-term rebuild, meaning that they would target A-ball or AA prospects with very high ceilings. Instead, too often they traded for failed MLB-ready prospects. As Gleeman noted, they can't even develop their own failed MLB-ready guys, what maxes them think they can fix other team's washouts. What was the thinking? To be ready for some kind of mysterious 2026 playoff run?

The returns are very underwhelming. These trades made the Twins immediately worse, and with a real rebuild mentality, that's fine. But they also made the 2028-29 Twins worse than they could/should have been, and that's insane. Falvey was in over his head yesterday ... and the competition pounced.

[Sjoski]

23 minutes ago, Ron said:

An inept and embarrassing ownership. There's your lane 

I'm not even willing to call it a lane. 

More like they drove this team into the ditch. 

The man behind the wheel is Falvey and he's holding the map upside down. 

[NYCTK]

2 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Honest question how is 26 a transition year? Unless they bring up the stud prospects now to see what they have 26 and 27 seem like transition years, But 27 is the last year for the big three pitching, so they are likely to at some point as well. I mean right now (as of today) the Twins have what 3 legit MLB players on their active roster (Ryan, Jeffers, Sands) , a few backups and couple of hopefuls (Lewis, Lee, Wallner, SWR, Matthews)

This team isn't a year plus away, it is likely by the time they are good again, Lewis, Lee, Wallner, SWR, Sands, Ryan and others will have moved on. The team as it currently stands isn't close to being competitive. 

Buxton and Royce. The starting pitching improved yesterday (though undoubtedly will be traded from in future trade windows). 

And then the Twins do have a lot of good position player talent in the high majors. Lee, Keaschall, Jenkins, Rodriguez, Culpepper, Gonzalez, Mendez, Roden, Eeles, et al. These players are all under 26 and will all be given a chance to prove themselves. There's a lot to like in that group. And there will be complete busts as well. But with 26 a chance to develop them, and early 27 a chance to really set the future up, this team can compete in 2027. 

Anyone concerned about holes in the bullpen, bullpen arms are made every day. Even top end bullpen arms are available quite frequently, as we saw the last couple days from multiple teams. Not just the Twins. If 2027 comes around and there's some holes in the bullpen there can be moves made. 

 

[Cory Engelhardt]

If they are picking a lane, even then at times I figured I could wrap my head around the deals.

That said, the Stewart and especially the Varland trades, the return on those I just do not understand. I do think they could have gotten a different prospect return for Stewart (how does Outman work if you also have Rodan and Larnach and Wallner and Jenkins and Rodriguez, all left handed hitting outfielders?) and Varland not being a free agent until 2030 or so, I don't see the need to move off of him at all. I almost think there is a story there, where maybe Varland was one who chose to not be here anymore more than them wanting to move off of him.

The free agents to be, the return on those mostly made sense. And they didn't trade from their rotation *(yet) as that part of the team still looks like a strength. I have to imagine they have some idea of their starters value now, so offseason trading 1 of them now makes sense too to supplement the roster.

They will need to build a bench. And they will need to have their young players in the next wave (Keaschall, Culpepper and Jenkins) all be ready to go in the next couple of years. I think that's what they are leaning in to.

I just can't wrap my head around the Stewart return and trading Varland away. Those don't fit for me yet.

[Nashvilletwin]

3 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Buxton and Royce. The starting pitching improved yesterday (though undoubtedly will be traded from in future trade windows). 

And then the Twins do have a lot of good position player talent in the high majors. Lee, Keaschall, Jenkins, Rodriguez, Culpepper, Gonzalez, Mendez, Roden, Eeles, et al. These players are all under 26 and will all be given a chance to prove themselves. There's a lot to like in that group. And there will be complete busts as well. But with 26 a chance to develop them, and early 27 a chance to really set the future up, this team can compete in 2027. 

Anyone concerned about holes in the bullpen, bullpen arms are made every day. Even top end bullpen arms are available quite frequently, as we saw the last couple days from multiple teams. Not just the Twins. If 2027 comes around and there's some holes in the bullpen there can be moves made. 

 

All you point out about the approaching talent is true. But that talent will never approach its potential without a change in the manager.  I’ll share your optimism only when Rocco is gone.

[NYCTK]

3 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

All you point out about the approaching talent is true. But that talent will never approach its potential without a change in the manager.  I’ll share your optimism only when Rocco is gone.

I mostly agree. I think Rocco is a bad manager and think Falvey is a bad baseball ops guy. 

But there's very little chance a new owner isn't in place by 2027 with an entirely new leadership in place. Or at least I'm optimistic of that. 

 

[Bodie]

36 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

They should absolutely entertain trading Lopez or Ryan, and try to extend Jeffers but if he's a Boras client like I think someone said he's not going to take it. So he should probably be traded too. Full commitment to 2026 as transition year. 

Why do you want a bottom 10% defensive catcher (and on a 5 year regression) extended?  The best weapon we've got?  Sure.  But he is a DH with an XL equipment bag! 

I am 55 years old with 9 fused vertebrae.  Not only could I steal 2B off Jeffers (and all but •2 of Monday's pitchers), I'd be able to take 3B if I didn't paralyze myself getting into second.  Mike Piazza like defense (and rergessing) without the equivalent (lol, not even close) bat.  He is a problem, not a solution for this team.

 

These are the precise types of deals Falvey has jumped all over for everyday players, and we've seen the results over the last several horrifically inconsistent seasons.

[hitterscount]

27 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

They should absolutely entertain trading Lopez or Ryan, and try to extend Jeffers but if he's a Boras client like I think someone said he's not going to take it. So he should probably be traded too. Full commitment to 2026 as transition year. 

What has Jeffers done to deserve a contract extension? He’s a below average defender with a below average rate at throwing out base runners over his career , is near league average this year. Other than they have no other options I wouldn’t break the bank for him.

 

33 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

They should absolutely entertain trading Lopez or Ryan, and try to extend Jeffers but if he's a Boras client like I think someone said he's not going to take it. So he should probably be traded too. Full commitment to 2026 as transition year. 

 

[chpettit19]

I disagree that they picked a lane. You don't bring James Outman back if you've fully picked the rebuild lane. You don't. It's not even an option. You pick any random prospect over James freaking Outman. A 28-year-old failed prospect. That is not picking the rebuild lane. 

The Twins blew up their pen. The one part of the team we already know they won't invest in and believe they can build overnight from any castoff or failed starter. They didn't touch any controllable starting pitching or position player that didn't save them $70 million. 

I think they very much remained in both lanes and it's why I absolutely hated yesterday. The return in the trades matters in this discussion. They got 28- and 25-year-old players and 16- and 18-year-old players. That isn't picking a lane. That isn't picking a target window for contention, that's trying to win now and later.

Maybe they truly pick a lane this offseason by trading Lopez, Ryan, and Ober, but they didn't pick that lane yesterday. Blowing up the most fungible part of your roster that you never invest in anyways isn't tearing down your roster or rebuilding. It's not picking a lane. They held their most valuable pieces that would truly jumpstart a rebuild. The Nats didn't hold Juan Soto when they started their rebuild. The Twins held Joe Ryan. Until they trade their starting pitching they haven't picked a lane.

[CharlieDee]

Because the front office "picked a lane" it's worth celebrating?  I could not disagree more.

[NYCTK]

1 minute ago, Bodie said:

Why do you want a bottom 10% defensive catcher (and on a 5 year regression) extended?  The best weapon we've got?  Sure.  But he is a DH with an XL equipment bag! 

I am 55 years old with 9 fused vertebrae.  Not only could I steal 2B off Jeffers (and all but •2 of Monday's pitchers), I'd be able to take 3B if I didn't paralyze myself getting into second.  Mike Piazza like defense (and rergessing) without the equivalent (lol, not even close) bat.  He is a problem, not a solution for this team.

 

These are the precise types of deals Falvey has jumped all over for everyday players, and we've seen the results over the last several horrifically inconsistent seasons.

Is he really that bad? I thought I looked recently and he graded out as bang on average, if slightly below. 

[Old Twins Hat]

46 minutes ago, karcherd said:

Do they have a plan, we will see.  It will be interesting who is on the roster today after the dust settles. 

 

Here's the plan:  build around youth.

Look at baseball right now.  Teams like KC, Detroit, Chicago, Cincy, -- there is a youth movement like never before.  There is a ton of talent coming up through the ranks and the exciting teams in MLB are tapping it.

Thirty is the new thirty five and the teams that jump backwards from that into the young twenties are going to be the funnest to watch as new star after new star emerges.

Everything can be measured now, speed, curve ball rotation, arm slot, swing speed, everything.  And, the young guys are the ones that are building their bodies and abilities according to what the analysis tells them.

This is a long-term secular trend and the Twins have instantly moved to the front of the line and will be fun to watch next year -- for once!

[NYCTK]

4 minutes ago, hitterscount said:

What has Jeffers done to deserve a contract extension? He’s a below average defender with a below average rate at throwing out base runners over his career , is near league average this year. Other than they have no other options I wouldn’t break the bank for him.

 

 

I wouldn't break the bank either. Just think he's somewhat stable and not bad to have around. But not married to him. Fine with trading him in the off-season too. 

[Original_JB]

Sure they picked a lane, it's to completely cut costs to the bone and have no long term obligations on the books for the lockout that will happen after next year. Which also makes me wonder if there even really is a potential buyer in the wings.

[Squirrel]

7 hours ago, Matthew Taylor said:

For once, the front office had one. You don’t have to love it. You don’t even have to agree with it. But you can finally say the Twins have a plan. They chose not to languish in the middle. They chose not to keep spinning the same wheels with the same core. They recognized that their window had closed, and they decided to tear it all down before the walls caved in on their own.

I’m not sure this is ‘vision.’ I’m not even sure what they did is a plan for the future. I don’t think this was a plan other than one, big money grab. Okay, I get Paddack. I think we got what we could for him. I might even get trading Duran if I squint, but I don’t think we got enough value for him. Because it wasn’t about getting value, it was about money. Bader, Castro, Coulombe, and France, okay, expiring contracts. Stewart I get trading. Given his injury history, sell high when he’s doing well. But we didn’t sell high. We didn’t sell high on any of them, imo. The returns were just not good, imo, especially since it was a seller’s market and we had players other teams WANTED. No, this wasn’t an investment for any future. This wasn’t a tear down to try again another day. We didn’t get what we should have. This was nothing more than a money grab that will not be invested in the future. The FO and ownership never really tried to win it all in this window of opportunity. They shut it down when after winning a round in the playoffs, they pulled the rug out from under all of us. And this? Nothing more than one big money grab by the Pohlads and one big **** you to the fans and the players. 

[Bodie]

1 minute ago, NYCTK said:

Is he really that bad? I thought I looked recently and he graded out as bang on average, if slightly below. 

Any team that wants to run on him does, and does it with impunity.  

More than enough blame can be attached to the pitchers who are a) bad at holding runners, and b) are not doing anything to improve that, but Jeffers is slower in execution behind the plate than any time since he was a (horribly overmatched) rookie.

He has improved before,  so he can be prodded to do so.  Instead we just need to "trust the process" and not get hung up on individual outcomes....

 

 

Sorry, was temporarily possessed by the spirit of Rocco...

[Doctor Wu]

1 hour ago, In My La Z boy said:

Looks like Louie is our new closer, and I got a little happy for him.

Hey, that was my first reaction too after I read that Jax was traded. But then ... WTH?! I'm still stumped by the Varland trade most of all. Not sure if the Twins truly have a direction now at all. 

[SarasotaBill]

Mid 2027:

P: Matthews, Rojas, Festa, Abel, SWR, Hill, Prielipp, Soto, Gallagher, Quick,Raya,Morris,Culpepper

Inf: Keaschall, Lee, Culpeper

OF: Jenkins, Gonzalez, Rodriguez

C: Diaw, Tiat, Olivar

Util: Debarge

Trade Pieces: Lopez, Ryan, Jeffers, Lewis

Others: Wallner, Larnach, Outman, Roden, Clemens, Sands, Julian, Miranda

[Nshore]

The new owner's first step should be to finish the rebuild and fire Falvey and Baldelli.  Falvey's record on first round draft choices alone is abysmal.  And Baldelli 's teams are marked by periods of low energy and indifference.  Contrast the Twins with the Boston Red Sox who were just here.  The Red Sox are athletic and high energy- stealing bases and running all over the place.  Maybe the new era stat driven game approach doesn't favor the aggressive speed game.  But the energy and focus required for bunting, stealing, hit and run carries over to every aspect of the game.

[Cory Engelhardt]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I disagree that they picked a lane. You don't bring James Outman back if you've fully picked the rebuild lane. You don't. It's not even an option. You pick any random prospect over James freaking Outman. A 28-year-old failed prospect. That is not picking the rebuild lane. 

The Twins blew up their pen. The one part of the team we already know they won't invest in and believe they can build overnight from any castoff or failed starter. They didn't touch any controllable starting pitching or position player that didn't save them $70 million. 

I think they very much remained in both lanes and it's why I absolutely hated yesterday. The return in the trades matters in this discussion. They got 28- and 25-year-old players and 16- and 18-year-old players. That isn't picking a lane. That isn't picking a target window for contention, that's trying to win now and later.

Maybe they truly pick a lane this offseason by trading Lopez, Ryan, and Ober, but they didn't pick that lane yesterday. Blowing up the most fungible part of your roster that you never invest in anyways isn't tearing down your roster or rebuilding. It's not picking a lane. They held their most valuable pieces that would truly jumpstart a rebuild. The Nats didn't hold Juan Soto when they started their rebuild. The Twins held Joe Ryan. Until they trade their starting pitching they haven't picked a lane.

I do not think they have to trade Lopez, Ober and Ryan this offseason. My guess is they made enough conversation happen with Boston (among others) that Ryan is going to be dealt. He certainly can bring back a few pieces for next year (maybe a 1B or a catcher that can play, along with some good prospects) but I don't see the need to trade the other 2.

That sounds bleak, but I do think they like Abel and Bradley, along with Zebby, to round out the rotation.

Also wouldn't be shocked if SWR/Festa/Ohl/Morris/Raya/Prielipp, some combo of those are either traded for bullpen pieces or turned into bullpen pieces.

Still wish we had Varland though. 

[Cory Engelhardt]

1 minute ago, Nshore said:

The new owner's first step should be to finish the rebuild and fire Falvey and Baldelli.  Falvey's record on first round draft choices alone is abysmal.  And Baldelli 's teams are marked by periods of low energy and indifference.  Contrast the Twins with the Boston Red Sox who were just here.  The Red Sox are athletic and high energy- stealing bases and running all over the place.  Maybe the new era stat driven game approach doesn't favor the aggressive speed game.  But the energy and focus required for bunting, stealing, hit and run carries over to every aspect of the game.

Disagree on the drafting portion. 

[Doctor Wu]

1 hour ago, hitterscount said:

They hit the exit lane and took the off ramp without a strategy.

Excellent summation!