Dear Pohlads: Don't Do This

[Panthers FTW]

7 minutes ago, SF Twins Fan said:

I'm blanking this morning but when was the last time the Twins weren't shopping at the bargain bin at the deadline?

I certainly wouldn't classify the Jorge Lopez trade as "shopping at the bargain bin" considering he was an All Star when we acquired him.

[nicksaviking]

5 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

2022. That turned out quite bad for the Twins. 

Yeah, the Nelson Cruz for Joe Ryan deal worked out very well, other than that, the mid season trades have not been good. They've done much better in the off season trades, another of which I was hoping for last winter.

[USAFChief]

30 minutes ago, Dman said:

Stay the course.  Believe in the guys we have. We did that in 87 and it worked out pretty well IMO.

The '87 Twins added Joe Niekro, Dan Schatzeder, Steve Carlton and Don Baylor via in-season trades in 87.

Two of those worked out pretty well IMO.

[Dman]

1 minute ago, SF Twins Fan said:

I'm blanking this morning but when was the last time the Twins weren't shopping at the bargain bin at the deadline?

If you look at two of last years biggest names,  Sherzer and Verlander didn't help their teams much.  Bargain bin or not doesn't necessarily matter.  It's a hope chip.  You play it and hope it is a difference maker but only one works because only one team wins the World Series.

It can be a small move like the Braves with Eddie Rosario who essentially single handedly moved them past the Dodgers or Montgomery who came in handy for the Rangers last year when they were expecting Sherzer to be "the guy".  It's hard to say what is going to move the needle, but most chips fail and all chips rely on the fact the team at large is going to play extremely well with little or no weakness's along the way.

[chpettit19]

Don't get the arguments about not trading away the future. If the FO is as good as we hope at developing young talent (and I think they have a really nice thing going on now) on the farm this is exactly when you trade away a few guys to give yourself the best shot possible at winning a championship. 

Correa, Lopez, Buxton, Kirilloff, Stewart, Ober, Jax, Ryan, Larnach, Duran, Sands, Lewis, Miranda, Julien, SWR, and all the rookies (Lee) and guys in the system all locked up through at least 2027. That's 4 rotation members and 8 position players, and the entire back-end of your pen locked up for 3 years or more. This is the exact time to risk some prospect capital for an increased shot this year when the entire core of your team is locked up for long enough to develop more prospects to replace the ones you traded.

As for the Pohlads, it's their business to run as they see fit. Just don't understand at all how anyone in the business/marketing department thought anything they've done in the last 9 months was the right move. Just incredibly poor PR and marketing stuff since last November. They've tripped over themselves for nearly a year now and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Winning is going to help, and I expect to see an increase in attendance the rest of the year as they chase the division and a playoff birth. But they need to make some real changes in how they interact with their fans if they want to have any chance of increasing revenue anytime soon.

[Dman]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

The '87 Twins added Joe Niekro, Dan Schatzeder, Steve Carlton and Fon Baylor via in-season trades in 87.

Well I was in college at that time and more interested in girls than the Twins. So you got me there. lol  Thanks! (I changed it)

I honestly didn't pay too much attention to that team until after their first playoff win. I think they were in last place or close to it the year before.

[Puckett34]

4 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

2022. That turned out quite bad for the Twins. 

I was gonna say 2009 or 2010 but forgot about 2022.  Although the aforementioned years (09-10) were savvy moves vs pushing chips in. 

Not my money and I understand the financial constraints with the lack of a RSN and the resulting needing to slash payroll.  Even though the younger players coming up had just as much to do with the budget going down as much as not spending.  But they're not mutually exclusive (little of column A, little of column b if you will).

It's just frustrating when you have the momentum of a talented roster, having a good year, winning first playoff game/series in 18+ years.  That you would want to build upon that equity with the fans, get them excited about the team, etc...  Instead, put this out there saying "Jeez, sorry guys.  Gotta balance that budget dontchaknow".  Just like once, push those chips in.  

Sorry about the rambling/incoherent-ness of this post.  It's 20+ years of frustration boiling over.

[DJL44]

49 minutes ago, Trov said:

I was listening to sports talk show the other day, national show, forget which one off top of head.  They talked about that in sports, most owners actually lose money in the day to day operation of a team, but make it up on the sale of the team. 

There are huge tax benefits to showing a paper loss. Think. Why would the value of a business keep increasing if it is not making money?

[madtowntwin]

My very focused take from this article is how close the Twins and Brewers are in revenue. Living here in Wisconsin I thought it to be close, but almost identical??!! What's 20 million to these guys??!! Anyway as both are very involved in the playoff race - albeit in AL / NL respectively - it will be fascinating to compare & contrast their organizational moves over the next 32ish hours. 

[mikelink45]

The Polhads wealth did not come from baseball.  While I want the best team we can get I think that the policy I would follow would be to develop the rich lode of talent we have and be ready to loosen the purse string through extensions like they did for Pablo.  Sure I wish we would spend like Steinbrenner did, but that does not follow their personalities and yet we have a really good and competitive team.  Develop our own starters and don't sacrifice the future for unknown and short term results. 

[SF Twins Fan]

5 minutes ago, Puckett34 said:

I was gonna say 2009 or 2010 but forgot about 2022.  Although the aforementioned years (09-10) were savvy moves vs pushing chips in. 

Not my money and I understand the financial constraints with the lack of a RSN and the resulting needing to slash payroll.  Even though the younger players coming up had just as much to do with the budget going down as much as not spending.  But they're not mutually exclusive (little of column A, little of column b if you will).

It's just frustrating when you have the momentum of a talented roster, having a good year, winning first playoff game/series in 18+ years.  That you would want to build upon that equity with the fans, get them excited about the team, etc...  Instead, put this out there saying "Jeez, sorry guys.  Gotta balance that budget dontchaknow".  Just like once, push those chips in.  

Sorry about the rambling/incoherent-ness of this post.  It's 20+ years of frustration boiling over.

I think you've said it perfectly.  I'm not expecting, and I don't think most Twins fans are expecting ownership to push every season to win a championship, but the Twins have a very good team this season.  They have a chance to do something, and won't they make a lot more money if the Twins go deeper in the playoffs? 

The Twins desperately need a quality left-handed reliever and could use another starter.  They don't know what they're going to get from Paddock the rest of the season, Varland hasn't been good this year.  Are they planning to rely on Festa and maybe Matthews to fill out the 5th starter spot for the remaining two months?

[JD-TWINS]

13 minutes ago, Minderbinder said:

Passion aside the undeniable economic truth is that organizations that lack positive operating cash flow go out of business.  St. Louis' market is ranked slightly below the Twin Cities but the Cardinals cope very well.  

Cash flow will increase when the TV contract solidifies and fan attendance increases, period.  Management isn't ignoring the former, and local government plays a material part in increasing the latter.

All praise for the fandom.  Higher praise for a fandom that accepts economics and supports a return to a welcoming and safe city for in-person attendance.  The Pohlads aren't running a public utility.

As an illustration, the Cardinals attendance in 2023 (a losing season) was 40,013 per game & it was down 900 people per game from previous year. That’s 3.24 million per year in attendance. EVERY YEAR.

Gray has given up 5 runs in 4 consecutive starts………Arenado is not performing to contract this year nor any other with St Louis…….Goldschmidt has not performed for past couple years. Their youth is driving their season offensively, generally.

Fans come out regardless - am assuming their games are on local TV but this goes beyond just 2024. Their attendance hasn’t wavered since 2006.

Excuses to not go to games and blah attendance when a Team won a playoff series a year ago and is in the mix in ‘24 isn’t helping the spending issue. Not the only problem …..but get out & support the players, IMO.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

I wonder what the market is for Duran...

[SF Twins Fan]

2 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

As an illustration, the Cardinals attendance in 2023 (a losing season) was 40,013 per game & it was down 900 people per game from previous year. That’s 3.24 million per year in attendance. EVERY YEAR.

Gray has given up 5 runs in 4 consecutive starts………Arenado is not performing to contract this year nor any other with St Louis…….Goldschmidt has not performed for past couple years. Their youth is driving their season offensively, generally.

Fans come out regardless - am assuming their games are on local TV but this goes beyond just 2024. Their attendance hasn’t wavered since 2006.

Excuses to not go to games and blah attendance when a Team won a playoff series a year ago and is in the mix in ‘24 isn’t helping the spending issue. Not the only problem …..but get out & support the players, IMO.

St. Louis also lost in the World Series in 2004, won the World Series in 2006 and 2011, and the lost again in 2013.  Before last season the Twins hadn't been past the 1st round since 2004 I think?

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

I'm a bit of a sentimentalist, so I'd be sad to see Max go even though he's not in the team's long-term plans. Crazy to think that he's the only one left from the Bomba squad in 2019. Team fizzled out in October but that regular season was a blast.

[JD-TWINS]

11 minutes ago, Puckett34 said:

I was gonna say 2009 or 2010 but forgot about 2022.  Although the aforementioned years (09-10) were savvy moves vs pushing chips in. 

Not my money and I understand the financial constraints with the lack of a RSN and the resulting needing to slash payroll.  Even though the younger players coming up had just as much to do with the budget going down as much as not spending.  But they're not mutually exclusive (little of column A, little of column b if you will).

It's just frustrating when you have the momentum of a talented roster, having a good year, winning first playoff game/series in 18+ years.  That you would want to build upon that equity with the fans, get them excited about the team, etc...  Instead, put this out there saying "Jeez, sorry guys.  Gotta balance that budget dontchaknow".  Just like once, push those chips in.  

Sorry about the rambling/incoherent-ness of this post.  It's 20+ years of frustration boiling over.

As a fellow fan (I like activity & spending too) after winning a Playoff Series for first time over 18 years ……THAT should bring equity with the fans & excitement should be there! Not the latest deal.

The Team signed Correa - traded for Lopez & extended - drafted Buxton & Lewis & Lee……,seems to me they are doing things to add to fan excitement and success! The Fan perspective is continually, “….what have you done lately”. IMO, not realistic view of how the Team should be run, regardless of how much money the owners have.

Look at 2023 METS v. 2024 METS….,a very good contrast of Wild spending and then a conservative approach while still EATING the salaries they had going into last year.

I get this is a downer attitude or point of view. I just think realism needs to be part of the equation and not just what the Fans want today being the gospel.

[Puckett34]

5 minutes ago, SF Twins Fan said:

I think you've said it perfectly.  I'm not expecting, and I don't think most Twins fans are expecting ownership to push every season to win a championship, but the Twins have a very good team this season.  They have a chance to do something, and won't they make a lot more money if the Twins go deeper in the playoffs? 

The Twins desperately need a quality left-handed reliever and could use another starter.  They don't know what they're going to get from Paddock the rest of the season, Varland hasn't been good this year.  Are they planning to rely on Festa and maybe Matthews to fill out the 5th starter spot for the remaining two months?

Exactly this.  I'm not expecting them to make it rain cash every year.  I would, however, like them to capitalize on seasons like this one.

And maybe I'm wrong on this year. But man, maybe don't put out that statement about trading away from the MLB roster to match salaries.

[TwinkieFan4life]

I don't care about what they spend, or what they do at the deadline.  I just want to be able to watch the damn games.  Pretty low bar to clear.

[LambchoP]

Would Kepler be enough to land us a set up type relief pitcher? We need at least one lefty, preferably two. I think that's a bigger priority than adding rotation depth imo...

[tony&rodney]

25 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Falvey's hands are kind of tied if ownership let him give out legit contracts to guys like Correa and Buxton one year and then tell them to cut budget the next. 

The off field management of this team is much more bumbling than the on field management.

The Twins marketing seems less than ideal and the public relations related to "unfortunate" comments last offseason added to some poor optics regarding the off field management (owners). The two big contracts (Buxton and Correa) were surprising to many Twins fans. Those contracts likely do lend some credence to what monies are left for other players though, eventually.

I don't know the Pohlads, although I met Carl years ago, and have zero interest in getting deep into how wealthy business people manipulate their clients (think public paying for stadiums). Nevertheless, Falvey has had sufficient resources to put together a competitive roster. I really struggled to understand how last offseason unfolded, but that is now well past.

Currently, the Twins have numerous good players under contract and/or control via the rules tying players to a team. The organization seems to have a decent level of talent within their minor leagues. Now would be an optimal time to make a couple of trades using good players who are deep on the depth charts. I would guess that Walker Jenkins and Zeb Matthews, among players in the minor leagues, are not in consideration to trade. Maybe Luke Keaschall has risen to that status as well. There should be deals available and that duty falls to Falvey and Levine. 

For all the crap we read about Baldelli and his coaches, it sure seems like you nail it with your last statement. 

[Puckett34]

17 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

As a fellow fan (I like activity & spending too) after winning a Playoff Series for first time over 18 years ……THAT should bring equity with the fans & excitement should be there! Not the latest deal.

The Team signed Correa - traded for Lopez & extended - drafted Buxton & Lewis & Lee……,seems to me they are doing things to add to fan excitement and success! The Fan perspective is continually, “….what have you done lately”. IMO, not realistic view of how the Team should be run, regardless of how much money the owners have.

Look at 2023 METS v. 2024 METS….,a very good contrast of Wild spending and then a conservative approach while still EATING the salaries they had going into last year.

I get this is a downer attitude or point of view. I just think realism needs to be part of the equation and not just what the Fans want today being the gospel.

I thought my comment was rooted in realism.  I'm just saying, from a PR perspective, maybe don't say anything at all, through the media anyway.   That likely isn't the best strategy either.

 

Dunno why I'm complaining anyway.  Not like I'm going to take my fandom elsewhere.  I'll get up in arms once or twice a year like I am now and be right back here next season.  Shoot I got tickets to games in September. I'm a part of the problem.

[chpettit19]

9 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

As an illustration, the Cardinals attendance in 2023 (a losing season) was 40,013 per game & it was down 900 people per game from previous year. That’s 3.24 million per year in attendance. EVERY YEAR.

Gray has given up 5 runs in 4 consecutive starts………Arenado is not performing to contract this year nor any other with St Louis…….Goldschmidt has not performed for past couple years. Their youth is driving their season offensively, generally.

Fans come out regardless - am assuming their games are on local TV but this goes beyond just 2024. Their attendance hasn’t wavered since 2006.

Excuses to not go to games and blah attendance when a Team won a playoff series a year ago and is in the mix in ‘24 isn’t helping the spending issue. Not the only problem …..but get out & support the players, IMO.

The Cards are not a great comparison. That 2023 losing season was their 2nd losing season of the 21st century. They hit 3 million fans back in the late 80s, and outside of the strike-shortened '94 season, and the following '95 season, they've basically been in the high 2 millions for attendance every year. 

Arenado had a near 6 WAR season with the cards in 2022 and has been a 3 time all-star, 2 time gold glove winner, and 1 time silver slugger winner in St Louis. If that's "not performing to contract" sign me up for a bunch of guys not performing to contract. Goldschmidt has fallen off this year, but won the MVP in 2022 and had a 119 OPS+ and 3.4 bWAR last year. Again, sign me up for a bunch of guys "not performing" if that's "not performing." Those have been 2 good players until last year for Arenado and this for Goldschmidt.

The Cards have built up a fanbase and had a consistently good team for decades. The Twins haven't earned that from their fans. Since the 2 teams met in the '87 World Series, the Cards have gone 3070-2694 for a winning percentage of 53.26. They've had 8 losing seasons while winning 2 titles and losing the WS 2 other times. The Twins have gone 2849-2917 for a winning percentage of 49.41. They've had 19 losing seasons while winning 1 more title and appearing in 0 other WS. They set a North American major sport record for playoff losses in a row. 

These franchises aren't the same. The Cards drawing well during their first losing season in 16 years, and 2nd in 23 years, is so far from comparable to the Twins situation. "Their fans come out regardless" is ignoring a whole lot of context.

[Jocko87]

41 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Don't get the arguments about not trading away the future. If the FO is as good as we hope at developing young talent (and I think they have a really nice thing going on now) on the farm this is exactly when you trade away a few guys to give yourself the best shot possible at winning a championship. 

Correa, Lopez, Buxton, Kirilloff, Stewart, Ober, Jax, Ryan, Larnach, Duran, Sands, Lewis, Miranda, Julien, SWR, and all the rookies (Lee) and guys in the system all locked up through at least 2027. That's 4 rotation members and 8 position players, and the entire back-end of your pen locked up for 3 years or more. This is the exact time to risk some prospect capital for an increased shot this year when the entire core of your team is locked up for long enough to develop more prospects to replace the ones you traded.

As for the Pohlads, it's their business to run as they see fit. Just don't understand at all how anyone in the business/marketing department thought anything they've done in the last 9 months was the right move. Just incredibly poor PR and marketing stuff since last November. They've tripped over themselves for nearly a year now and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Winning is going to help, and I expect to see an increase in attendance the rest of the year as they chase the division and a playoff birth. But they need to make some real changes in how they interact with their fans if they want to have any chance of increasing revenue anytime soon.

They have also shifted their drafting mindset in the last few years to, I think, increase available trade chips.  Fast moving shortstop types are the best non-pitcher trade chips out there and they are flush with them.  They certainly have the pieces to make some moves without hamstringing themselves.  Kudos to them for putting themselves in a good spot.

The business and marketing stuff is correct but not enough questions are being asked about a chief business and revenue officer that was only here a short time and delivered on few of the stated goals on hire (sleeve patches etc).  I don't think the current issues are as much about spend as converting revenue.  Unfortunately spend is the victim.  Still on ownership and DSP for a major hire that didn't work out for whatever reasons but the impact is just as bad as a major free agent turning into a pumpkin.

[DJL44]

17 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

These franchises aren't the same. The Cards drawing well during their first losing season in 16 years, and 2nd in 23 years, is so far from comparable to the Twins situation. "Their fans come out regardless" is ignoring a whole lot of context.

The markets aren't the same either. The NFL is #1 in the Twin Cities market and the NBA/WNBA are gaining in popularity. The Cardinals have the St. Louis market basically to themselves with just NHL hockey in the offseason and a brand-new MLS expansion team during the season.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

2 hours ago, Trov said:

I was listening to sports talk show the other day, national show, forget which one off top of head.  They talked about that in sports, most owners actually lose money in the day to day operation of a team, but make it up on the sale of the team.  I get annoyed with all these post and articles about how the Twins can, and need to spend more.  It has been going on for years, since the 90's.  Then even when we spend the fans still complain because team comes out and says sorry we are spending too much now and some of our long term revenue is shrinking.  

I would read article about how much money the Padres spent, but yet they did nothing and they had to take out a loan to pay their payroll and had to sell Soto for pennies on the dollar because they could not afford him. If fans are upset at payroll, then stop watching and stop supporting team.  Supporting team and complaining about how it is ran will not affect anything. 

I 100% disagree with this take.

We are not just the fans, we are the customers.  We are the ones that "buy" the product.  Silence and apathy are ways to let ownership now how we feel, but screaming at them from the rooftops is also another way.  Sometimes businesses need to be told directly that they are alienating their customer base, otherwise they may not see the level of distress they are causing

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

The markets aren't the same either. The NFL is #1 in the Twin Cities market and the NBA/WNBA are gaining in popularity. The Cardinals have the St. Louis market basically to themselves with just NHL hockey in the offseason and a brand-new MLS expansion team during the season.

True, but they did have the NFL there for much of the time I listed and they still weren't losing attendance. St Louis is a baseball town, but the team being good helps with that. The Twin Cities love the Vikings and Wild first and foremost. Those teams sell out every game no matter what basically. The Twins and Wolves (and I assume the Loons) have to be good to sell tickets. But when they are good, they sell tickets.

The Twins started this offseason off by slapping their fans in the face and they paid for it in the first half by losing attendance. That attendance will likely bounce back now that they're good and the fans want to see them win a division and more playoff games. If the team can put together a stretch of 23 years with 2 losing seasons like the Cards have done I'd bet they wouldn't complain so much about attendance. They likely wouldn't be hitting 3 million, but 2.5? Quite possible.

[Eris]

I’m not sure that using last years payroll is useful as there was about 60 -70 million of unproductive spend (Correa, Buxton, Gallo, Vazquez) This year both Correa and Buxton were/are living up to their expectations. 
 

Last year’s season was saved by the 2nd half play of Kepler, Lewis, Wallner and Julien. 

[Fire Dan Gladden]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

Excuses to not go to games and blah attendance when a Team won a playoff series a year ago and is in the mix in ‘24 isn’t helping the spending issue. Not the only problem …..but get out & support the players, IMO.

Get out and support the players?  That is like saying you are going to shop at Macys over Walmart because you like the cashier.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

The '87 Twins added Joe Niekro, Dan Schatzeder, Steve Carlton and Don Baylor via in-season trades in 87.

Two of those worked out pretty well IMO.

The thing about attempting to make your team better: it is as much the process than the results.  Over the last few off-seasons, the Twins made move after move in an effort to improve the on-field product.  I can respect that and want to follow that effort.  When they publicly and systematically make every effort to WORSEN the team, a team that was arguably a top 5 team in baseball, don't expect the fans to be all sunshine and lollipops.

The effort matters!

[chpettit19]

23 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

They have also shifted their drafting mindset in the last few years to, I think, increase available trade chips.  Fast moving shortstop types are the best non-pitcher trade chips out there and they are flush with them.  They certainly have the pieces to make some moves without hamstringing themselves.  Kudos to them for putting themselves in a good spot.

The business and marketing stuff is correct but not enough questions are being asked about a chief business and revenue officer that was only here a short time and delivered on few of the stated goals on hire (sleeve patches etc).  I don't think the current issues are as much about spend as converting revenue.  Unfortunately spend is the victim.  Still on ownership and DSP for a major hire that didn't work out for whatever reasons but the impact is just as bad as a major free agent turning into a pumpkin.

I don't know that it's just to increase available trade chips, but they do seem to have shifted more towards good athletes who play up the middle and aren't carried by 1 tool. That is both good for your own system and your chance to swing some trades. Agreed with the kudos.

It would be fascinating to know how things went behind the scenes with Morris. Was she the driving force behind the failed offseason of marketing? But they had Laura Day in that position from 2016-2022 and weren't exactly killing it with fan base growth then either. That's back to back major hires/promotions that didn't work out all that well for whatever reasons. Which is why I put it on DSP and ownership.