Twins v Rangers Ump Scorecard

[GusGus11]

 

 

Just brutal. And it keeps happening nightly in baseball.

Wanted to post this one though because 1. Its really bad. 2. We took the brunt of it and 3. Our game thread regarding Wallner

Folks legit thought it was a good call and'or Wallner should have swung. I hate that our young guys consistently get screwed by umps(Juliens K was worse just not as impactful so missed the list since Seagers walk was 9th inning) but I LOVE that they know the zone. The day Wallner starts consistently swinging at that pitch is the day he becomes lost at the plate. You dont "protect" at the plate against the ump when its a blatant ball. You expect the ump to do their job while you do yours and take the walk.

Glad we overcame it. But im ready for robobumps. Julien, AK and Wallner will see a surge in OBP too so lets do it.

Edited August 25, 2023 by GusGus11
Details been added

[GusGus11]

Sorry double post

Edited August 25, 2023 by GusGus11
double post

[Mike Sixel]

It really is amazing that anyone is against robo umps. 

[Dman]

With so little movement on this issue I think MLB wants the human umps to use discretion to keep teams in games by squeezing or not squeezing one side.  Otherwise it makes no sense not to move to robo umps.  I can't think of another single argument other than MLB wants the controversy of inconsistently called balls and strikes to impact games as it creates emotional chatter.

[FlyingFinn]

Is it just me or are Julien and Wallner right almost every time on the missed calls because they have played with the challenge or robo umps in the minors? They really know the strike zone and don't seem to say a word when they let a pitch go that is actually in the zone.

[Nine of twelve]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

It really is amazing that anyone is against robo umps. 

I know of no reasonable argument against robo-umps. None.

[Nine of twelve]

It’s very telling that 94% accuracy is the standard for humans. I don’t have data to cite but I am confident that robo-ump systems far outperform even the best humans. Moreover, robo-umps can improve and humans cannot. To me it’s a travesty that robo-umps weren’t put into place years ago. 

[GusGus11]

1 hour ago, FlyingFinn said:

Is it just me or are Julien and Wallner right almost every time on the missed calls because they have played with the challenge or robo umps in the minors? They really know the strike zone and don't seem to say a word when they let a pitch go that is actually in the zone.

 

Yup this was brought up by someone in the game thread. I dont think its a coincidence that Julien/Wallner/AK are the ones constantly getting the brunt and almost always right. They have been playing with it.

It obviously helps that they are flat out more disciplined hitters than all of our vets(sad but true) but i think a part of that is also being used to a strike zone where you know its going to be consistent and accurante.

Where as, as much as it annoys me watching buxton chase. Hes operating on more guess work

But its why I find it insane people were saying Wallner should swing at that pitch. WHAT?? As frustrating as it is seeing Julien and Wallners stats blatantly impacted by bad calls. In the long run its going to help so much. Making them much better hitters and if godforbid MLB goes to robo umps they will make a elite jump with zero learning curve.

[CRF]

That ump last night doesn't need a scorecard...he needs an eye exam. 

[Major League Ready]

Last off-season there were plenty people here who still favored umps calling games but I have not heard anyone defend the existing system in quite a while.

The good news is Julien will be an on-base machine when we get the electronic strike zone or challenge system.

[AlwaysinModeration]

I don’t think Julien, AK and Wallner are better at judging the zone because they have experience with ABS.  They are simply better at judging the zone.  It’s a skill, and that kind of discipline allows them to hit better, because they are only swinging at stuff they can make solid contact with.

[Craig Arko]

Even I am starting to cave. I think there will be plenty of problems with electronic systems but go ahead and use them anyway.

[jorgenswest]

6 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

It really is amazing that anyone is against robo umps. 

Royce Lewis’ thoughts on AAA robo umps appeared in the Athletic today. I don’t think he believes they are ready though he says it is very advantageous to hitters with a very tight strike zone in AAA. If used in the majors Barry Bonds’ walk record would not survive. 

My thoughts all year is that the our perception AAA and AA performance is very distorted with the high run scoring environment. Maybe this is part of the problem. Pitchers either walk guys or give them a pitch that gets too much if the strike zone. 
 

edit: I read the Lewis interview from the Athletic’s wind up. Jason Stark had a longer article today. My takeaway is that it is not close to ready. One minor leaguer said that it is different in each park. Minor league execs have made this complaint also. AAA only uses robo umps half the games. They use the challenge system in the other. In the robo games there are 5.2 walks per nine according to Stark.

I really thought it was closer to ready. I also now wonder about the accuracy of what I see on TV. That doesn’t excuse the Wallner calls. I don’t need a box to see those are low for the side view. Harder with the pitcher view. Hopefully umpires are given feedback if they are calling too many low strikes for tall batters or too many high strikes for short batters. Adjusting the strike zone for each batter has to be one of the biggest hurdles for an umpire.

 

 

 

[USAFChief]

I'd back off my long standing opinion that an electronic strike zone won't be better than the current model, or improve the game, if I thought for one second people would stop bitching about it.

But I suspect that won't happen, so no.

Leave the game alone. Take the silly inaccurate box off the broadcast and you've solved the problem.

 

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, jorgenswest said:

Royce Lewis’ thoughts on AAA robo umps appeared in the Athletic today. I don’t think he believes they are ready though he says it is very advantageous to hitters with a very tight strike zone in AAA. If used in the majors Barry Bonds’ walk record would not survive. 

My thoughts all year is that the our perception AAA and AA performance is very distorted with the high run scoring environment. Maybe this is part of the problem. Pitchers either walk guys or give them a pitch that gets too much if the strike zone. 
 

edit: I read the Lewis interview from the Athletic’s wind up. Jason Stark had a longer article today. My takeaway is that it is not close to ready. One minor leaguer said that it is different in each park. Minor league execs have made this complaint also. AAA only uses robo umps half the games. They use the challenge system in the other. In the robo games there are 5.2 walks per nine according to Stark.

I really thought it was closer to ready. I also now wonder about the accuracy of what I see on TV. That doesn’t excuse the Wallner calls. I don’t need a box to see those are low for the side view. Harder with the pitcher view. Hopefully umpires are given feedback if they are calling too many low strikes for tall batters or too many high strikes for short batters. Adjusting the strike zone for each batter has to be one of the biggest hurdles for an umpire.

 

 

 

Insufficient accuracy would explain why there has not been a more significant push.  We won't see it until they can demonstrate great accuracy.  My guess the umpire's union will fight it too.

I had read a couple other articles that suggested they already have the accuracy down a fraction of an inch.  If not, they will eventually come up with technology that is precise.  When they do, it will change the game significantly for the better.  For example, a 1-1 pitch called incorrectly changes the probability of getting a hit significantly.  A 3-2 pitch like Wallner had last night changes the game.  Accepting bad calls would be awfully crude once we have the technology to provide a fair outcome and the vast majority of fans an industry people will embrace it.

[stringer bell]

The inconsistency is pretty telling. The same pitch getting called for a strike makes it hard to pitch and hit. Wallner and Julien took called thirds that really weren't close and ball four to Seager in the ninth was in the box. The ump missed on a strike three call to Jankowski that was just as bad. 

I agree that the Box we see is inaccurate and especially changeups and breaking balls that look low are really in the zone as they cross the plate, but received below the zone. 

[NotAboutWinning]

The system may not be ready for full time use, but the challenge system would be a perfect way to counter these awful performances by the umps. The challenge literally takes 2 seconds. It would eliminate the atrocious calls from impacting the outcome of the games. It would also diffuse the rising animosity between the players and the umps. It might even improve umpire performance if they are getting immediate feedback on their calls. Win-win.

[Kenny Powers]

1 hour ago, NotAboutWinning said:

The system may not be ready for full time use, but the challenge system would be a perfect way to counter these awful performances by the umps. The challenge literally takes 2 seconds. It would eliminate the atrocious calls from impacting the outcome of the games. It would also diffuse the rising animosity between the players and the umps. It might even improve umpire performance if they are getting immediate feedback on their calls. Win-win.

This is where I'm at.  It might be too much for traditionalists to completely move on from live umps.  But they can continue to baby step it.  They've already added some replays.  No reason to not be able to instantly review some balls/strikes.  It would have to be on a limited basis so as not to balloon game length.  Maybe similar to NFL - each side gets 2 challenges/game.  But at least have a safety net in place to review calls that significantly impact the game.  We have the technology - use it.

[mnfireman]

If Blaser's was this bad, can't wait to Torres's scorecard from last night...

[Linus]

This will not be popular but…..both strike 3 calls against Gallo and Wallner were strikes. Nearly perfect pitches that cannot be taken for 3rd strikes. Fully acknowledge earlier pitches were horrible calls but at some point you have to have a different approach with two strikes. 

[nclahammer]

12 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I'd back off my long standing opinion that an electronic strike zone won't be better than the current model, or improve the game, if I thought for one second people would stop bitching about it.

But I suspect that won't happen, so no.

Leave the game alone. Take the silly inaccurate box off the broadcast and you've solved the problem.

 

During the St. Paul Saints game I saw that used the robo umps, it was the smoothest game I can remember seeing.  Not one batter, looked back at the umpire after a pitch, and there was no chirping from the dugouts about any called pitch.  None.  No bitching, whining, or crying.  The game just moved smoothly along.      Removing the silly box doesn't solve the problem...it ignores it.

[mnfireman]

1 hour ago, Linus said:

This will not be popular but…..both strike 3 calls against Gallo and Wallner were strikes. Nearly perfect pitches that cannot be taken for 3rd strikes. Fully acknowledge earlier pitches were horrible calls but at some point you have to have a different approach with two strikes. 

Strike 3 to Gallo was a strike, strike 3 to Wallner was ball 4.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/gamefeed?date=8/25/2023&gamePk=716850&chartType=pitch&legendType=pitchName&playerType=batter&inning=&count=&pitchHand=&batSide=&descFilter=Called Strike&ptFilter=&resultFilter=&hf=&sportId=1

[tony&rodney]

2 hours ago, Linus said:

This will not be popular but…..both strike 3 calls against Gallo and Wallner were strikes. Nearly perfect pitches that cannot be taken for 3rd strikes. Fully acknowledge earlier pitches were horrible calls but at some point you have to have a different approach with two strikes. 

Gallo was hot at the previous call and that the umpire was chirping at him. Gallo was also yapping.

I do believe that batters need a more effective two strike swing approach that protects against very close borderline pitches. However, at no point should that include swinging at pitches well out of the strike zone. Julien has been a victim of numerous egregious strike three calls and we saw how badly he misses on a pitch way outside last night. He needs to stick with his strike zone to remain in baseball.

[GusGus11]

https://twitter.com/UmpScorecards/status/1695444993471594745/photo/1

 

Basically Torres was only bad against us last night

MLB made the call they needed Texas to snap their streak. They didnt.

[Otaknam]

22 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

It really is amazing that anyone is against robo umps. 

Angel Hernandez should be a strong advocate for robo umps. He is so weak behind the plate that robo umpires might help him keep his job.

[terrydactyls]

22 hours ago, Dman said:

With so little movement on this issue I think MLB wants the human umps to use discretion to keep teams in games by squeezing or not squeezing one side.  Otherwise it makes no sense not to move to robo umps.  I can't think of another single argument other than MLB wants the controversy of inconsistently called balls and strikes to impact games as it creates emotional chatter.

That is conspiracy theory at its finest.

[terrydactyls]

18 hours ago, AlwaysinModeration said:

I don’t think Julien, AK and Wallner are better at judging the zone because they have experience with ABS.  They are simply better at judging the zone.  It’s a skill, and that kind of discipline allows them to hit better, because they are only swinging at stuff they can make solid contact with.

Actually, your two comments are somewhat contradictory.  First you say that you don't think they are better at judging the zone just because they are familiar with it.  But then you say it's because they are better at judging the zone.  Where do you think they learned how to judge the zone in professional baseball?  By working their way to the majors through leagues with robotic umpires.  If you have a consistent strike zone for three or four years in a row, you become a good judge of the strike zone (unless you have no discipline whatsoever).

[terrydactyls]

1 hour ago, mnfireman said:

Strike 3 to Gallo was a strike, strike 3 to Wallner was ball 4.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/gamefeed?date=8/25/2023&gamePk=716850&chartType=pitch&legendType=pitchName&playerType=batter&inning=&count=&pitchHand=&batSide=&descFilter=Called Strike&ptFilter=&resultFilter=&hf=&sportId=1

I went to the site and played around a little but I couldn't find where it said ball or strike.

[mnfireman]

2 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

I went to the site and played around a little but I couldn't find where it said ball or strike.

You can click on the "Illustrator" tab right above the box with the score. Then, at the top of the page click on "Chart Options." A box will pop up with different choices, click on "Pitch Result." You can then check out pitch location for every result. If you click on various other options you can see results for all batters, LH batters, RH batters, etc...

[NotAboutWinning]

6 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

Is it possible that MLB loves the ability to have the umpires swing a game to a larger market team, especially when it impacts the ability to get to and when in the playoffs?  This is an entertainment industry that whether they say it or not is dependent on large market $.  Not saying this always happens, but I would not be surprised if it does occasionally.

It's always been obvious that the Yankees, in Yankee Stadium, got calls their opponents did not. As to baseball as entertainment, the number of clicks and shares the bad calls get is crazy! MLB might want to keep milking the free exposure.