Twins 10, A's 7: Twins Survive Feisty A's for Second Straight Ugly Win

[Squirrel]

15 minutes ago, Linus said:

I was wondering the same thing. Was plenty nervous when they pulled Jax for Ortega. 

But didn’t they try to have Jax go two in the beginning of the year? What happened with that?

[USAFChief]

Regarding Jax, Put me down on the "glad Rocco didn't risk multiple innings from one of his few good options" side of the ledger. 

Jax pitched Friday. So now he's pitching back to back, one risk factor. There's also a widely held opinion that multiple inning use puts a lot of extra strain on arms...that sitting for a half inning, then resuming pitching, is  different than 1 inning use. Another risk factor.

IMO Rocco handled that just fine. Just another reminder there's no such thing as a low leverage reliever. Everyone in the pen is going to pitch at least sometimes  with the game close. You can't just use a couple guys every time a game is close.

My quibbles with Rocco would be he left Lopez in too long, and I wouldn't have let Ortiz pitch to Rooker as the go-ahead run in the 8th. I'd have used Duran for 1 out there, and let the other Lopez have the 9th. And that's not second guessing, I said it real time in game thread. 

But it worked out, even though Rooker missed a 3 run shot by a couple feet. We're lucky he hit that to dead center.

 

[2wins87]

3 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Maybe you answered your own questions? Maybe his usage is what’s helping him be successful? 

Yes it could be, I did want to acknowledge that. But that doesn't mean they couldn't push him a little further when he's been really efficient. I don't want to see it regularly, but I wish Rocco would call an audible every now and then when someone comes out to pitch only inning 6 or 7 and ends up looking really good and efficient.

Wouldn't have to be Jax, though he's probably the only guy I would trust out of the current healthy group 

[TopGunn#22]

To me, the definition of insanity when handling a BP is pulling a guy after he's thrown SIX pitches.  Yes, it worked, but from a usage standpoint I just don't get it.  I think Rocco has pulled a guy after he has thrown 2 pitches in an inning (those 2 pitches ended the inning).  If you're going to warm a guy up, give him some run.  Since Ortega and Jax both throw RH there wasn't any statistical/analytical advantage gained.  If the Twins are going to talk about BP guys who are "unavailable" on a given day a 2 pitch or 6 pitch inning, when the pitcher was effective, at least to me, means you should give them the ball to start the next inning.  I think BP usage and strategy is Rocco's biggest negative.  Even worse than lineups.

I also think Maeda is pitching himself out of the rotation.  Other than a bat or two for the lineup and maybe a solid BP piece, and considering the state of uncertainty surrounding our rotation next year, I wouldn't mind a trade that brought us Blake Snell if the Padres fall any further out of Wild Card range.  We would finally have a lefty in our rotation and hopefully could sign him for 2024 and beyond.  The other option is to just bring Varland back.   

[Whitey333]

I'm glad they at least won.  Still so many flaws in this team.  Buxton batting 3rd.  Really??  He's hitting 202 is in an 0 for 16 streak with I strikeouts.  He's a rally killer.  If they have to play him at least move him down in the order.  Let's get real here.  People were so excited when they swept the lowly Royals.  Then got blown out by a good Baltimore team because we can't compete with good teams.  The As are even more lowly than the Royals.  It is a AAA team essentially.  A bottom line for me is the Twins are 11-1 against the Royals and As and 36-45 against everyone else they have played.  Beating the weak sisters of the poor is good in that you beat the ones you should even if it's ugly.  But it sure masks what this team really is.  With the easiest schedule remaining in all of baseball the Twins could and should make some hay in the standings.  If they don't the season will be a complete failure.

[jmlease1]

7 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Leave it to Rocco to blow out his fully rested pen in two days against one of the worst teams of all time.

You mean: leave it to the starters for not shutting down a bad team and going deeper into the games. I mean, come on: if you're blaming Rocco for using his entire bullpen to scape together back-to-back wins when neither starter was sharp then the dude isn't going to ever be able to do anything right.

Correa is on a bit of a heater right now, and that's good to see. Hitting leadoff seems to be working for him (even if he's not fast). Hope this means he's locked in at the plate for a while and can super-charge this offense for a while.

11 hits and 7 walks certainly should be enough baserunners to pile up the runs.

Bullpen has picked up the starters 2 games in a row; time for the starters to return the favor.

[Linus]

33 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

But didn’t they try to have Jax go two in the beginning of the year? What happened with that?

He threw six pitches. 

[2wins87]

32 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

But didn’t they try to have Jax go two in the beginning of the year? What happened with that?

Nope. Jax hasn't gone more than one inning since the middle of last year. Basically as soon as he became a trusted late inning guy he's also been a one inning guy.

It was his performance in those multi-inning appearances that got him into that role though.

[Riverbrian]

6 hours ago, SwainZag said:

The problem is we don't see what goes on behind the scenes. 

If he trainers tell Byron his legs aren't there to play the OF but can still hit, who are you blaming?

If Buck is killing the ball in practice and in the cages and the staff and manager feels he is an asset to the team... then what?

It's really easy for fans to say, "Psssh 0-4!! He's a POS, put him on the IL!  He can't play OF, then he can't hit!"

You really think that Rocco knows he's injured and struggling, but keeps him batting third and risking his job because of Buxton's pay escalators?

If anything... the Twins would do the opposite and save some cash. 

With that said... There has to be some current metrics saying that it's ok to move him down in the order. Along with other current metrics saying that there are no logical choices to move up in the order.   😁

[Squirrel]

6 minutes ago, Linus said:

He threw six pitches. 

So? They tried the multiple inning thing on him, when the first inning was good, it didn’t work. He’s had success again as a 1-inning only guy. There could be other quibbles of the game, but I don’t think this one was it

[jmlease1]

8 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

To me, the definition of insanity when handling a BP is pulling a guy after he's thrown SIX pitches.  Yes, it worked, but from a usage standpoint I just don't get it.  I think Rocco has pulled a guy after he has thrown 2 pitches in an inning (those 2 pitches ended the inning).  If you're going to warm a guy up, give him some run.  Since Ortega and Jax both throw RH there wasn't any statistical/analytical advantage gained.  If the Twins are going to talk about BP guys who are "unavailable" on a given day a 2 pitch or 6 pitch inning, when the pitcher was effective, at least to me, means you should give them the ball to start the next inning.  I think BP usage and strategy is Rocco's biggest negative.  Even worse than lineups.

I also think Maeda is pitching himself out of the rotation.  Other than a bat or two for the lineup and maybe a solid BP piece, and considering the state of uncertainty surrounding our rotation next year, I wouldn't mind a trade that brought us Blake Snell if the Padres fall any further out of Wild Card range.  We would finally have a lefty in our rotation and hopefully could sign him for 2024 and beyond.  The other option is to just bring Varland back.   

Maeda is pitching himself out of the rotation with one bad start since coming off the IL? (the 3 previous were good) Is Lopez pitching himself out of the rotation too? 

Twins starters have been very good this season and starting pitching is going to be the most expensive thing at the trade deadline (see also, Mahle, Tyle). If you wanted to add Snell you'd have to give up big time assets, at least as much as we gave up for Mahle, frankly (Snell is pitching better and has a better track record, even as a 3 month rental). Seems like a bad investment.

I'm surprised to see so much criticism of bullpen management after this game. Clearly, they're trying to keep for overdoing it on the guys who pitched back to back games, and with some injuries and lack of investment in the bullpen, they don't have have as many guys they trust in late and close situations right now. (4 relievers on the IL right now, and there's no question the Twins would have used Thielbar and Stewart in the last two games) But as a result, they got through it and pulled out 2 wins in 2 days, games they really needed to have. Feels like pretty good bullpen management to me.

Now they need a good start from Ryan and a nice cushion of runs so Balazovic or someone can finish it off and give the rest of the 'pen the day off while we hopefully sweep the sorry, no-account A's and their dreadful owner (arguably the worst in sports).

[JD-TWINS]

11 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

I know it's Oakland and that the Twins followed up a sweep of KC with the Baltimore debacle, but that's 15 runs in two games out of the break. It's also 9.1 innings with five hits and three walks (0.857 WHIP), one run and nine whiffs out of the bullpen. 

The starters struggled in the two games, obviously, but given that that's the strength of this team, I like the two-for-two start. It's nice to get a couple wins when it's the offense and bullpen picking up the starters. 

 

EDIT to add: We're not the only team struggling with Baltimore right now. They've won seven straight. 

We’re thin in the Pen today - let’s go Joe!

Agreed - O’s are a solid club! Four former Twins on their staff makes it sting a little bit…….We win 2 of 6 in the 2 series v. Baltimore and lost 2 of those in extra innings…….it’s not like they crushed us.

An aside - the Braves were in the middle of a streak of 20 games averaging 7.2 runs per game when we came into Georgia………I think we gave up 2 - 3 - 6 runs over the 3 game sweep. Great club - results not that terrible.

Tampa & Braves swept us……6 losses to them & 4 to Baltimore. Other than those, we’ve been very competitive in other series with teams that have a wide range of ability! Don’t understand the attitudes that dismiss any chance for us in a playoff series?

[JD-TWINS]

9 hours ago, D.C Twins said:

My concern is that Buxton has large pay escalators for number of AB. 

He is unlikely to opt out of the line up as long as he can walk to the plate.

The onus is on the Twins FO to shut him down (or at least drop him low in the order)

What a mess. 

Hit a 109 MPH rocket to 3B Saturday - he’s had some terrible AB’s in the past couple games but from the “team only meeting” to the All-star game he had some hits - few K’s - 3-4 times robbed on D of big hits, couple times in 2 days at the Wall v. Baltimore.

We don’t have a better definitive option. He only plays if the team thinks he can contribute - nothing to do with $$$.

[2wins87]

19 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

So? They tried the multiple inning thing on him, when the first inning was good, it didn’t work. He’s had success again as a 1-inning only guy. There could be other quibbles of the game, but I don’t think this one was it

When did they try that? Because I can't recall it.

From my memory and a quick glance at the game logs. He started last season as a long reliever, was good in the role, then became a late inning reliever and they haven’t tried multiple innings since.

I'm 50-50 on last night's game given it was back to back. But at the same time he's probably unavailable today either way, and it's not like they were going to pull him from the inning early if he had a couple long counts and got to 20 pitches but was otherwise getting outs.

[wabene]

I'm really happy with how this season has turned around for Jax. Maybe it was just tough luck early on. The Twins took a guy who looked like he had a ceiling of a #4 - 5 starter, fringe major leaguer, and developed him into a late inning weapon. 20 straight innings, very nice. Bullpen arms are notoriously volatile in performance and they don't last long. I wouldn't mess with this winning formula, I would applaud it. 

[JD-TWINS]

23 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

Maeda is pitching himself out of the rotation with one bad start since coming off the IL? (the 3 previous were good) Is Lopez pitching himself out of the rotation too? 

Twins starters have been very good this season and starting pitching is going to be the most expensive thing at the trade deadline (see also, Mahle, Tyle). If you wanted to add Snell you'd have to give up big time assets, at least as much as we gave up for Mahle, frankly (Snell is pitching better and has a better track record, even as a 3 month rental). Seems like a bad investment.

I'm surprised to see so much criticism of bullpen management after this game. Clearly, they're trying to keep for overdoing it on the guys who pitched back to back games, and with some injuries and lack of investment in the bullpen, they don't have have as many guys they trust in late and close situations right now. (4 relievers on the IL right now, and there's no question the Twins would have used Thielbar and Stewart in the last two games) But as a result, they got through it and pulled out 2 wins in 2 days, games they really needed to have. Feels like pretty good bullpen management to me.

Now they need a good start from Ryan and a nice cushion of runs so Balazovic or someone can finish it off and give the rest of the 'pen the day off while we hopefully sweep the sorry, no-account A's and their dreadful owner (arguably the worst in sports).

Jax was NEEDED to extinguish any upstart in the 7th! The A’s had comeback 4 times prior in the game. He can’t throw into a second inning after throwing the night before. Ortega did a nice job, & if anything, I thought he may get the 9th. Duran did his job. Jax may be able to get an out or 2 today after only throwing 6 pitches Saturday. 

Disagree on any issues with how the Pen’s been used through the 2 games we won. Need a starter to perform or BP will get burned up on any team…….Maeda’s 3 inning debacle on Friday got the problems started.

[JDubs]

2 hours ago, Karbo said:

So many people (including myself) want to get rid of Kepler and Gallo. But comparing a few hitting stats;

Kepler .209 Avg  282 OBP .403 Slg

Gallo  .187 Avg ,307 OBP .473 Slg

Buxton .202 Avg .294OBP .423 Slg

Kepler and Gallo both play in the field, And Buxton bats 3rd at DH?

You're right, they should DFA Buxton and put Jake Cave out there.

[stringer bell]

The manager and pitching coach had better have a better feel than the fans for what the bullpen pitchers can and cannot do. There were a lot of figurative raised eyebrows when Stewart was inserted into high leverage situations, but now it is accepted that Stewart is a high leverage setup guy (hoping that will still hold when he returns from the iL). I don't think Ortega has the stuff that Stewart does, but he might have enough to be an effective middle guy. 

If memory serves, Jax was warming last week to go into his third straight game (didn't happen) so maybe he'll be available for a batter or two today. Duran is probably not available today, otherwise they should be all right. 

[Squirrel]

49 minutes ago, 2wins87 said:

When did they try that? Because I can't recall it.

From my memory and a quick glance at the game logs. He started last season as a long reliever, was good in the role, then became a late inning reliever and they haven’t tried multiple innings since.

I'm 50-50 on last night's game given it was back to back. But at the same time he's probably unavailable today either way, and it's not like they were going to pull him from the inning early if he had a couple long counts and got to 20 pitches but was otherwise getting outs.

We are both remembering incorrectly. He’s never been long relief. In 2021 he came up in June and was a starter. He was moved to the pen in 2022 where he had success, and not pitching long relief either. A small number of times going two innings, rarely more than that, but early in the season. By mid-season he established himself as a very good one-inning reliever. And a few games only pitched 7, 8, 9 or 10 pitches, looking briefly through game logs. His biggest success has been as a one-inning guy. I stand by my comment … of things in last night’s game one could quibble about, I don’t think this is one of them. We won. Why are we second guessing the thing that worked?

[David Maro]

Finally scored some insurance runs playing baseball. Using a double steal and a bunt with Castro on the bases. May want to do some of that with Buxton,but can't because he may get hurt. Pitching really needs to improve today,giving the A's 11 runs in two games not good. Nice to see Duran use the fastball over the offspeed stuff. Just like Jax early in the season falling in love with the slider got him in trouble. If in the lineup today Buxton and Kepler need to 7-8 or even 8-9, may wakeup their bats.

[Nine of twelve]

Regarding Jax: yes, it's very tempting to want him to pitch longer in his appearances based on his current run of success, but be careful not to kill the goose that lays golden eggs. And, just as important if not more so, I think we probably need to start using Duran the same way. One inning tops, max effort, then done. Don't tempt fate.

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, Karbo said:

So many people (including myself) want to get rid of Kepler and Gallo. But comparing a few hitting stats;

Kepler .209 Avg  282 OBP .403 Slg

Gallo  .187 Avg ,307 OBP .473 Slg

Buxton .202 Avg .294OBP .423 Slg

Kepler and Gallo both play in the field, And Buxton bats 3rd at DH?

Your point is solid. 

The only difference is that Buxton will be back next year. Gallo and Kepler most likely won't be and that makes getting rid of them... justifiable. 

[TwinkieFan4life]

11 hours ago, D.C Twins said:

My concern is that Buxton has large pay escalators for number of AB. 

He is unlikely to opt out of the line up as long as he can walk to the plate.

The onus is on the Twins FO to shut him down (or at least drop him low in the order)

What a mess. 

Honestly though, it is put up or shut up time for Buck (assuming he can't play the field).  Polanco will be back soon.  Julien and Polanco need to be in the lineup.  I don't know how you could justify sitting either one for Buck if he continues to be a 200 hitter.

[2wins87]

10 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

We are both remembering incorrectly. He’s never been long relief. In 2021 he came up in June and was a starter. He was moved to the pen in 2022 where he had success, and not pitching long relief either. A small number of times going two innings, rarely more than that. And a few games only pitched 7, 8, 9 or 10 pitches, looking briefly through game logs. His biggest success has been as a one-inning guy. I stand by my comment … of things in last night’s game one could quibble about, I don’t think this is one of them.

To me the first half of last year does look like long relief. Maybe you could say it's a multi-inning role in between long relief and late-inning relief, but at any rate, he did well pitching multiple innings. I think he could be even better if it is only in limited situations when he's been very efficient for the first inning.

It's not really about last night specifically for me which I've said was a 50-50 call in my mind. The Boston game was much more memorable to me. Jax looked good and clearly could have at least started a second inning. You have no idea if Duran will be efficient enough to go 2 innings there.

I think I am usually on board with the majority of Rocco's tactical decisions, but I've felt for several years that he tends to be inflexible when it comes to bullpen decisions. I think he's evolved on usage, but he still seems to approach most games with sort of a set plan on reliever situations/matchups and I'd like to see him let the results dictate usage a little more.

[chinmusic]

4 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I’ll take an ugly win over an ugly loss any day of the week and twice on Sundays

Yeah. Or even more than a crisply played 2-0 loss, like the Guardians yesterday. 

Hopefully Minn. completes the sweep today, sloppily or otherwise. Seattle will be a better indicator of where we stand.

[John Belinski]

11 hours ago, 2wins87 said:

20 straight scoreless appearances for Jax now dating back to May 22.

All 1 inning or less and 18 or fewer pitches.

The usage might be helping him to be successful but I've been wondering why Rocco hasn't even asked him to start a second once.

I feel like there have been a couple times when Jax finished an inning in less than 10 pitches only for Rocco to go to Duran for 2 innings or to go to a lesser reliever. I could be conflating it into more occurrences than in reality, but Jun 21 against the Red Sox was one that particularly stood out in my memory.  Jax finished the 7th in 8 pitches and Rocco went immediately to Duran with the clear plan of having him go 2 innings. Duran did go 2 innings but not before giving up the lead in the 8th and using 32 pitches. They did end up winning in extras.

Maybe tonight's game wasn't an ideal situation either after pitching last night and against a team where you can put a little more trust in the lesser relievers.  But after breezing through the 7th on 6 pitches, I would have been very tempted to stick with Jax rather than risk going to Ortegas.

It worked out fine, but I don't really understand why Jax is the one guy who never goes multiple innings when he's been so efficient and so good. And he was a starter two years ago, and a multi-inning guy even more recently than that.

Jax threw 6 pitches and Ortegas was just one pitch from losing game for Twins, but who can ever figure out what Rocco will do with pitchers?

[D.C Twins]

8 hours ago, SwainZag said:

The problem is we don't see what goes on behind the scenes. 

If he trainers tell Byron his legs aren't there to play the OF but can still hit, who are you blaming?

If Buck is killing the ball in practice and in the cages and the staff and manager feels he is an asset to the team... then what?

It's really easy for fans to say, "Psssh 0-4!! He's a POS, put him on the IL!  He can't play OF, then he can't hit!"

You really think that Rocco knows he's injured and struggling, but keeps him batting third and risking his job because of Buxton's pay escalators?

Yes, I do think Rocco knows he is injured and keeps putting him out there to hit.

He is the face of the Twins franchise and AD campaign which drives the FO directive to get him into games. 

If his knee problems are not impacting his hitting then he's in even bigger trouble.

Ummm... opinion based on faaaar more than on 0-4 night.....

He IS a liability to the team right now.

Which is super sad to say because a healthy Buck sparks joy like few if any others in the league..... both currently and historically. 

[wabene]

9 minutes ago, chinmusic said:

Yeah. Or even more than a crisply played 2-0 loss, like the Guardians yesterday. 

Hopefully Minn. completes the sweep today, sloppily or otherwise. Seattle will be a better indicator of where we stand.

The new schedule format is going to give us the opportunity to see a lot of different teams. Seattle, St Louis, Arizona, Philly, Pittsburg, Milwaukee, Texas and the Mets coming up. Variety is the spice of life. 

[D.C Twins]

58 minutes ago, JDubs said:

You're right, they should DFA Buxton and put Jake Cave out there.

...well if they were to DFA Buxton... it would be Julian as the DH.... no Cave required 😉

But, of course they should not DFA Buxton!

[USAFChief]

4 minutes ago, wabene said:

 Variety is the spice of life. 

And paprika is the spice of Hungary.