Blue Jays 7, Twins 6: Only the Twins Could Lose Like This

[Kummel]

Before this series, the bats were quiet.  It was awful.  Yes, we could have won this game but didn't, and Pagan shouldn't be a relief pitcher.  But at least the offense started rolling! 

[wabene]

16 minutes ago, Linus said:

Just make the plays in the field and we win even with Pagan pitching. Julien is a DH. We seem to have several players that profile similarly. 

I agree with your first statement. If you want to beat good teams you have to make the plays that are there. The Jays got their double plays 3 out of the first 4 innings, they didn't mess up.

I think it is way too early give up on Julien in the field. He can be a great sparkplug for this team, what does worry me is he seems to have a hard time moving on after a bad play in the field. 

[TwinsDr2021]

2 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Still, if your only reliable relievers are down, that really points a finger at how poorly constructed the BP is .., I’m tripling down on the FO being to blame for this 🙂

The manager in a 9 - 4 game used Stewart leaving him unavailable today. That is on Rocco, Pagan is terrible but it isn't his decision when to go into the game. Is Jax not allowed to go multiple innings any more.? When you don't have a great bullpen you can't burn out all your best in one game then say well our 3 best aren't available today and lose the game with your worst pitcher on the mound.

Bullpen management is one of the most important jobs of a manager, Bullpen management also is about how long a starter should go. I don't know why Gray was pulled after 5 innings and 76 pitches, but that was the start of bullpen management for the series.

On a positive not they won a series and the bats where much better at scoring. they K'd 37 times which is way too many times.

[Rosterman]

Time for the Twins to make a statement. Let Pagan and Kepler walk.

And Winder, why was he brought up? Not lighting any fires at AAA and Rocco hasn't used him since the call-up. WHy waste a callup on a non-contributor.

Same could be said for Garlick over Wallner. SHort-term callup for play...let's see if Wallner has truly improved so much at AAA that he will clobber the ball in the majors, and then send him down (sadly) when you need to bring back in Buxton and Gallo.

Looks like Varland will go to St. Paul when Madea is ready. Not that the kid isn't working his game every chance he gets.

[Peter]

Need to put this and horrible road trip behind-and yes twins got screwed today. They won series which was great but can’t let this loss affect them!!! With home stand upcoming can’t go 5-5 or have losing record-I see 7-3/8-2 and get distance from rest of division.

[High heat]

1 hour ago, Linus said:

Just make the plays in the field and we win even with Pagan pitching. Julien is a DH. We seem to have several players that profile similarly. 

I really like his bat but he can’t play long term at 2B.  
 

If I’m the Twins I’m looking to use Julien as a trade piece come July.  Hoping you can sell him as a full time 2B and he’s just blocked by Polanco.  

[Blyleven2011]

4 hours ago, wabene said:

Fricken tough loss I thought they had this one, damn. Oh well back to chores, glad I got all that piss and vinegar out, thanks for being there for me, lol. 

To much scotch turn to pissed and vinegar  ...

[tony&rodney]

Julien catches so much heat. Apparently on base is no longer very important. I agree with those who suggest he made a poor feed to Correa because he did. Correa made the bad throw though and Kirilloff failed to dig it out. Then Vasquez called off speed when Chapman couldn't touch the fastball and Varland grooved a pitch with zero movement. It takes a village. Julien makes pitchers work and offense (runs) follow him around. Kirilloff and Lewis have been fun to watch. I'm not ready to see Larnach back in St. Paul. If these four produce runs, let them play. Make the others wait their turn.

[Nashvilletwin]

50 minutes ago, High heat said:

I really like his bat but he can’t play long term at 2B.  
 

If I’m the Twins I’m looking to use Julien as a trade piece come July.  Hoping you can sell him as a full time 2B and he’s just blocked by Polanco.  

Sorry, but I couldn’t help but disagree. If Julien gets the ABs this year he deserves/merits, next season he has the potential to be the best hitter on this team, actually in the entire organization. He’s 100% a major league hitter and should be looked at as our top of the order replacement for Arraez.  In a year he’d hands down be a more valuable DH than Buxton (for sure against RHers) just for his hitting, not even counting his ability to at least give us innings in the field.

We ran Arraez out of town because of inane objections to his fielding and/or his knees.  Julien has the potential to win batting titles and to be an all star - just like Arraez has done and will likely continue to do.

[Blyleven2011]

4 hours ago, Mark G said:

Quick question:  I follow pretty closely, and usually know what is going on, at least, but I am missing something here.  What happened to Caleb T.?  He faces 2 batters and we never see him again, and now he is on the IL.  I really missed something here.  

The words they used is he reaggravated his oblique  and they don't know when it happened  ...

If that's their quote , what does it say about our new trainer ...

Don't know when it happened  , what a crock  ...

[Blyleven2011]

2 hours ago, darwin22 said:

Your #5 remark regarding Pagan:  I'd venture a strong guess that the vast majority of fans "tuned out"/ "turned away" from game with Pagan entering.  

To clarify point in earlier post, this was the 1st game Pagan pitched in with the Twins holding a lead since his nuclear meltdown in LA on May 17th.  Not seeing a large number of fans defending the decision to bring him in, but there's a BIG REASON why he doesn't pitch in these high leverage situations.  Plain and simple, he chokes!  I could care less about his 7 effective appearances between May 17- June 6th as they were all LOW LEVERAGE situations (Twins trailing by 1+ runs).

Pagan IS the modern day version of Ron Davis. 

Twins have jettisoned other RPs that failed-----Joe Smith, Addison Reed and others------what makes Pagan the exception?

Is it really an ego thing with Falvey and the front office?  Admitting your mistake and DFA Pagan immediately.

 

 

When pagan came in we all knew the outcome  was going to be bad , we all called it  ...

When Ron Davis came in , we called it then too  , never thought there would be another  one like him but history repeats it's self ...

[Blyleven2011]

4 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Julien looks like he can be a really nice hitter in the bigs, but he's a shining example of why defense matters. So many plays that he just can't make, and when you can't make the plays it makes your pitcher throw more, and leads to the BP having to come in earlier than it should. Correa still should've made the throw on the double play, but if Julien can field it and get it to him smoother, and quicker, Correa has time to set himself a little as he throws. The play up the middle on Vlad with Bichette at first where Julien tried to back hand it wasn't the easiest play in the world, but when you're shifted up the middle, and the ball is 10 feet to your right, and not particularly well hit, you need to turn that into an out. Lewis' throw on Vlads grounder to 3rd needs to be an out (lots of free trips to 1B for Vlad today). Defense matters, and today was a great example of it.

And Pagan still needs to go. 3 high leverage appearances in 66 games isn't a lot, but he's blown all 3, and as the season gets deeper, and you get into the postseason, you can't keep playing with a short pen every night because you have a guy who can only pitch low leverage spots. They need to upgrade the pen. And DFA Kepler. There's no reason those 2 are on the team anymore. Time for the FO to step up and do their jobs.

Do you really have that much confidence that we will make the playoffs cause feel we are letting it slip away again ...

Only earlier this year rather than later last season  ...

[Aerodeliria]

6 hours ago, LewFordLives said:

Every season will have losses like this. It's just especially frustrating because this team has let so many winnable games slip through their fingers. 

 

Preach it. Good teams don't cough up 6-1 leads. Once again, the unraveling begin with a critical error.

[twinstalker]

To be saying that Pagan and Kepler should be gone all offseason and then watch this game, you're allowed to crap on the Twins all you want.

I hope Kepler gets dfa'd and becomes a star with another team.  I don't care.  Get him and Pagan out of here.

[High heat]

10 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Couldn’t help but disagree. If Julien gets the ABs this year he deserves/merits, next season he has the potential to be the best hitter on this team, actually in the entire organization. He’s 100% a major league hitter and should be looked at as our top of the order replacement for Arraez.  In a year he’d hands down be a more valuable DH than Buxton (for sure against RHers) just for his hitting, not even counting his ability to at least give us innings in the field.

We ran Arraez out of town because of inane objections to his fielding and/or his knees.  Julien has the potential to win batting titles and to be an all star - just like Arraez has done and will likely continue to do.

I really liked Arraez and he brought in great value in a trade.  I really like Juliens bat but I don’t think it is in the same class as Arraez.

Like it or not Buxton is or DH going forward and is signed for 5 more yrs.  Even if legs get healthy he will be there 50/50 for health management.
I see Julien tied to Miranda.  Both limited defensively but have good bats.  To me Miranda is passable at 3B Julien is not at 2B.  Miranda’s value has plummeted where Juliens is at a high.  

[Jeff D.]

Short on my comments: 

Pagan is not a pitcher the Twins need. Mr. Baldelli seems to think they do. This is the same dugout leader that will sit hot players (Most recently Lewis on Saturday). 

We have so many bizarre losses (snatching defeat from victories jaws), that it almost defies belief.  I feel the common thread is inconsistency fueled by a dugout leader that should be gone along with Pagan, Kepler and several others. 

Twins Geezer..........out. Go Twins!

[insagt1]

I miss Arraez. Trading a current batting champ and then watching him try to hit .400 down in the anonymity of Miami hurts. The guy we got for him hasn't set the world on fire yet...hope he eventually does.

Buxton apparently can't play CF anymore. His body just won't allow it. Worse, his offense is only mediocre at best as DH. He still fans too much and has too many long stretches where he gets zero hits. The bloom has gone off that rose. He is hurt all the time. Every season.

[Nine of twelve]

"Blue Jays 7, Twins 6: Only the Twins Could Lose Like This"

Actually, no. Toronto did essentially the same thing just one game earlier.

[chpettit19]

9 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Do you really have that much confidence that we will make the playoffs cause feel we are letting it slip away again ...

Only earlier this year rather than later last season  ...

If they refuse to cut the dead weight? No. If they start doing their jobs and making some moves? Sure, this division is trash, and it won't take much to win it.

But I wasn't speaking in specifics about the playoffs for this team this year. Just speaking in a general team management sense. I go by the idea that you break the season into 3rds. 1st 3rd you find out what you have. 2nd 3rd you work to fill your needs, and improve your team. 3rd 3rd you play your best players, and do everything you can to win your division/make the playoffs. My concern with this front office has always been that they're slow to react. We're past the 1/3rd mark of the season. They know who these players are (they knew who Pagan and Kepler were before the year). They need to stop sitting around and hoping Pagan will suddenly be a high leverage arm, or Kepler will hit (I "joked" with my friends the other day that that HR bought Kepler 3 more months with this FO). In speaking about the late season/playoffs I was simply saying you need to get rid of the Pagan's of the world, because you can't hide low leverage arms in August, September, and October. Since that's all he is you need to spend the middle 3rd of the season finding his replacement. That starts by cutting him. Today. You need to find 26 playoff worthy players, and that work starts now, not at the deadline.

[wabene]

7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

My concern with this front office has always been that they're slow to react.

This is my biggest frustration with management. 

[John Belinski]

I have said several times that Rocco is a slow learner and putting Pagan into pitch just shows that. How many Twin's fans assumed the game was lost when Pagan came in to pitch? The Twins were probably going to win the game until Rocco decided to have Pagan come into the game.  Does Rocco just have a short memory so he decided to pitch Pagan again? Pagan can just not pitch under pressure and that is a fact that most fans know, but for some reason Rocco gives him another try and Twins lose game.

[LastOnePicked]

21 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

1st 3rd you find out what you have. 2nd 3rd you work to fill your needs, and improve your team. 3rd 3rd you play your best players, and do everything you can to win your division/make the playoffs.

I like this framework, and your post, a lot. My only concern is that the games from each 1/3rd of the season count equally in the standings. If you're letting games slip away in the first 3rd, you're putting a lot of pressure on your ability to plug gaps in the second 3rd, AND you're putting a lot on the shoulders of your best players in the last 3rd.

I don't trust this FO's ability to asses our own organization's players (big leagues and minors), much less players from other teams, so the "plugging gaps" is iffy. Also, Buxton, Polanco, Gallo, Correa may be the "best players," but they don't seem likely to hold up come September. As a result, I lean skeptical on any division championships. If they were up 7.5 on Cleveland, okay, there's some buffer. Up 1.5? That's not going to hold.

[Squirrel]

11 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Looks like Varland will go to St. Paul when Madea is ready. Not that the kid isn't working his game every chance he gets.

Was that what was said? Or speculation? Im hoping that Maeda replaces Winder

[LastOnePicked]

12 minutes ago, John Belinski said:

I have said several times that Rocco is a slow learner and putting Pagan into pitch just shows that. How many Twin's fans assumed the game was lost when Pagan came in to pitch?

I don't like Rocco as a manager, but he should never have to deal with Pagan as a bullpen option anyway. That one is squarely on the FO.

That said, if I were Rocco, I would have made it clear last offseason that either Pagan stays on the roster or I stay in the organization. I wouldn't subject my team again to what he put the team through last year. He has weapons-grade-level yips. That's both demoralizing and contagious.

[DJL44]

15 hours ago, Brazilian Twins Fan said:

Pagan should be long gone 

Falvey says "Bullpen not a priority" - February 2023

[chpettit19]

16 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

I like this framework, and your post, a lot. My only concern is that the games from each 1/3rd of the season count equally in the standings. If you're letting games slip away in the first 3rd, you're putting a lot of pressure on your ability to plug gaps in the second 3rd, AND you're putting a lot on the shoulders of your best players in the last 3rd.

I don't trust this FO's ability to asses our own organization's players (big leagues and minors), much less players from other teams, so the "plugging gaps" is iffy. Also, Buxton, Polanco, Gallo, Correa may be the "best players," but they don't seem likely to hold up come September. As a result, I lean skeptical on any division championships. If they were up 7.5 on Cleveland, okay, there's some buffer. Up 1.5? That's not going to hold.

I just want some real sample size before I start making major moves. And the expectation is that you come into the season with very few holes to start with. That's a different problem that can't be fixed now. They shouldn't have come into the season with Pagan and Kepler sized holes in the roster to start with, which makes it even more frustrating that they're still sitting here in the middle of June with the same holes in the roster. If the Twins come into the year with those holes already filled the situation is far less dire than it is right now, and the 2nd 3rd of the season is spent fixing smaller holes on the margins, instead of major ones.

Teams like the Rays, Braves, Dodgers, Astros, etc. aren't working on plugging as many holes as the Twins. It all ties together. If you build your team better to start with the 3rds plan works much better. The Rockies, As, and Royals should be following a much different plan right now. The problem with the Twins is they set themselves up with holes that should've been very obvious, and thus filled, in the offseason. Now they've put a lot more pressure on themselves to fix it midseason.

[LewFordLives]

11 hours ago, High heat said:

I really like his bat but he can’t play long term at 2B.  
 

If I’m the Twins I’m looking to use Julien as a trade piece come July.  Hoping you can sell him as a full time 2B and he’s just blocked by Polanco.  

I wouldn't move on from Julien yet. Polanco is not guaranteed to be back next year. Even if Julien takes on a super-utility role like Arraez, there's value in that.

[TopGunn#22]

Yesterdays loss was very frustrating.  But to say Duran was not available makes me curious (Stewart for that matter as well).  Duran threw 38 pitches on Friday and then zero on Saturday.  You mean to tell me that with an off day today (Monday) he couldn't have given the team one inning on Sunday?  Really??  Stewart threw something like 28 pitches on Friday and ONE pitch on Saturday.  Again, off day today and he can't give you 3 batters on Sunday?  Why couldn't Jax, with an off day today come in to start the 8th and given us what he can and then hand the ball to Lopez to finish the 8th if need be and also the 9th?

Especially after the first two batters reached against Pagan, haven't we all seen this movie before??  Again, with an off day on Monday, just get Lopez in there and have him finish the game!!!  I've always been frustrated by Rocco's bullpen usage.  Before Pagan it was Colome.  Rocco just doesn't seem to manage his BP well and the buttons he pushes often have negative results.  As somebody mentioned earlier Rocco had no reason to use Brock Stewart in a low leverage situation earlier in the series.  Just as he had no reason, if he's been paying any attention to his results regarding Pagan, in a high leverage situation.  

I don't think the feed to Correa by Julien was stellar, but I do not think it was the reason we did not complete the double play.  Correa is supposed to be a Gold Glove SS.  Heck, he's supposed to be a Platinum Glove SS.  He's GOT to make a better throw.  Kirilloff has saved his butt more than a couple times this year already.  Kirilloff just couldn't come up with it this time.  

I would take a bag of baseballs for Max Kepler right now.  I would DFA Pagan yesterday  And I would consider trading Polanco (who still has a fairly high value) and let Julien and Farmer play 2B.  Lewis OWNS 3B now and Brooks Lee will be a fixture in 2024.  There is no guarantee Sonny Gray is in our rotation next year and Maeda and Mahle will be gone.  What kind of package could we get for Polanco?  I may trade Miranda as well, but not Julien.  

[sjunisu]

15 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Still, if your only reliable relievers are down, that really points a finger at how poorly constructed the BP is .., I’m tripling down on the FO being to blame for this 🙂

This FO appears to be incapable of admitting a mistake.  Pure Hubris.  Nobody wanted EP back this year but Falvine signed him anyway and now won't DFA as that would admit the error.  Same goes for Kepler not being DFA, Gallo, keeping Buxton at DH rather than play the field and have a better hitter there (Jullien, Wallner, Lewis, any number of guys).  Now just waiting for a Mahle signing shoe to drop to prevent admitting that horrendous trade (even though we should not need him in 2025 when he would return and be only partially effective 1st yr back).

This FO needs to ask their accounting department about what a 'sunk cost' is - and how it plays a part of roster construction.

[Steven Trefz]

1 hour ago, Nine of twelve said:

"Blue Jays 7, Twins 6: Only the Twins Could Lose Like This"

Actually, no. Toronto did essentially the same thing just one game earlier.

I put the headline in like that due to the build-up and bullpen formation that has been brewing in plain sight.

I'm open to new titles though...I did wonder if the two games cancelled each other out, but felt like the Twins went and got the game Saturday, as opposed to Toronto giving it away.

Let's have some fun on this off-day...what title would you give the Sunday game recap TwinsDaily crew?

Let's try to keep it PG-13 🤣