Cody Pirkl Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 A lot of discussions have been had this season about the long relief role in the Twins bullpen, but middle relief is becoming more of a topic as those they have in place continue to struggle. Who could step in and fill such a role? Image courtesy of Jeffrey Becker-USA TODAY Sports The Twins have a strong top of the bullpen in Jhoan Duran, Jorge Lopez, Griffin Jax, and Caleb Thielbar. They also have a surplus of long relievers they’ve cycled through to begin the season. The bullpen problems have mostly fallen into the low-leverage, middle-relief tier, which so far has been occupied by the ineffective duo of Emilio Pagán and Jovani Morán. It may be time for the Twins to get creative. The Twins have already begun searching for an internal addition for what it’s worth. Brock Stewart was called up Tuesday after 8+ innings and 17 strikeouts in Triple-A to begin the season. The 31-year-old former top prospect may not be the most exciting option based on his age and career thus far, but the recent performance gives hope that Stewart has made some changes and can carry them over to the big league level. However, the Twins should pivot to other options if it doesn't pan out. The depth of the aforementioned “long reliever” group in Triple-A is nice in theory, but one could argue that such depth for this role is a bit overkill. Cole Sands, Simeon Woods Richardson , and Brent Headrick are all on the 40-man roster and have been used at the big-league level thus far. Jose De Leon and Randy Dobnak remain as options who could be added if needed. Their performances aren’t as inspiring, but considering they’d be pitching almost exclusively in blowouts, it’s easy to argue it doesn’t much matter. Woods Richardson remains a legitimate starting pitching prospect, with Headrick and Sands less so. Rather than having five candidates for a role that may come in handy once per week, the Twins should be looking to transition one of these options into a traditional reliever. Focusing more on Headrick and Sands assuming Woods Richardson will continue taking the mound every fifth day, there’s reason to believe either one could come up and settle into a traditional middle innings role. The benefits of changing a bulk innings pitcher into a traditional reliever have been covered plenty at this point. The velo ticks up, and they can throw their best pitches more often. Brent Headrick is averaging around 92 mph on the fastball in his debut season, and he grades out tremendously in command with a usable changeup to equalize his left-handedness against right-handed hitters. He’s a prime candidate to be one of the many fringe starting pitching prospects who move to the bullpen and flourish as we’ve seen in recent years. Sands has been an option for a similar move for a year-plus now because of his wicked breaking ball. He hasn’t been a full-time starter since 2021, and it may be time to crack the door open to a consistent big-league job and see if he can kick it in. They could also pivot on Josh Winder, who’s on the rehab trail in St. Paul, though he’s also filled a multi-inning role in four of his five outings thus far. His inability to hold up to a starters' workload could be solved by putting him into a traditional reliever role given his issues with the fastball and impressive slider. The Twins have no shortage of options, and it’s becoming untenable to maintain such long relief depth to cycle guys in and out of a role at the MLB level that’s so unplanned and rarely utilized. Especially when it’s become clear that there are little to no situations in which the Twins have a lead where Emilio Pagán and Jovani Morán can be trusted to get even three outs. Hopefully, Brock Stewart’s minor league stuff translates, but the Twins should be working on a backup option now in case it doesn’t. Worst case scenario, Stewart grabs the job and runs with it, and another option establishes themselves in Triple-A in case they’re needed. They have more than enough long relief depth with not many answers in middle relief. Is it time to start actively seeking out more internal relief options? View full article glunn 1
stringer bell Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 Winder is giving every indication of being converted to relief with his rehab. Adding him for occasional multiple innings makes good sense. Squirrel, SwainZag, glunn and 6 others 9
Trov Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 You kind of contradict yourself in the article. You say we need a middle relief guy because Pagan and Moran have struggled in that roll, but then make comment we can use a lot of different people because only going to pitch in blow outs. Other than his last outing of terrible work, Pagan has been fine in that roll. Moran has been an issue giving up runs in most of his outings. If it does not matter who we throw out there because they are only to eat up innings in blowouts, why do we need someone that will do it better? I am mainly pointing out the contradicting statements the writer posed. miracleb and HrbieFan 2
Mark Videen Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 I wonder if Jordan Balazavic could be an option as well? Doctor Gast, Squirrel, glunn and 2 others 5
weitz41 Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 I'm beginning to think Balazovic may end up in the same category as Winder and a possible middle reliever as well. His walks/Whip are a bit higher than I'd like to see but if he can stay healthy..Maybe he's an option as well. Doctor Gast 1
Nine of twelve Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 This has been said before by a few of us: Kenta Maeda. Move him to the pen and insert Ober or Varland into the rotation. joefish, ValleySpringsFan, glunn and 6 others 9
HoskenPowell Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 Take Pagan on a road trip to North Dakota and leave him in the middle of no where. Guys only on the roster because management wont admit they totally blew it on that trade. Some town out there must need a terrible long reliever option on their townball team. darwin22, weitz41, glunn and 1 other 3 1
JD-TWINS Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 38 minutes ago, Mark Videen said: I wonder if Jordan Balazavic could be an option as well? Lopez - Paddack - Ryan - Varland - Ober in ‘24 (…..maybe Gray resigned?) - SWR - possible FA or trade acquisition? Balazavic is behind all of this as a starter, at a minimum. I too think a hard throwing guy to displace one of our current 6-7-8 guys in Pen …….a 2-3 pitch guy like Jax. I do think he’s been throwing in relief in St. Paul for a couple weeks plus. Hope he’s going to get a shot by June/July. weitz41 and Nine of twelve 2
Craig Arko Old-Timey Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 The obvious answer here is Winder. I’d like to see how that plays out and am not opposed to the idea of having two multi-inning relievers; say Winder and Headrick. Squirrel, DocBauer and Major League Ready 3
GKuehl Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 In full agreement on Balazovic converting to middle relief. It seems the team might already have that in mind, since he's only pitched 7.2 innings in 5 appearances so far this year. I'd give him a look and send Moran down to AAA for a mental reset and to work on his command.
HrbieFan Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 I'll take any warm body over Pagan, dude has absolutely zero confidence darwin22 1
Doctor Gast Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 If they are determined to keep Pagan, they should use him only in mop up innings only & see how far he can go. Maran needs more time in AAA. Low leverage middle RPs, you could rotate Stewart, Sands, Winder & maybe Balazovik, see who sticks. Winder IMO we can stretch out back into a long RP/ spot starter and who knows eventually a SP. Even with the rotation & BP we have, we could use long relief IMO at least 2X/ wk. not counting blow outs. SP who gets hurt, fatigued or just a bad day who can't go 5, long relief makes more sense.
Beast Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 This is where the FO has struggled. It’s already cost the team a couple of of games. They have this pompousity that they can turn guys Pagan and Megill into good pitchers where nobody else could. You’re better off paying a little money and signing somebody. If they’re so smart in regard to pitching, why can’t they go identify someone like Chapman on a 1 year $3M deal? He’s got 17 strikeouts in 10 appearances and a WHIP under 1.00. I know that’s hit or miss also, but a lot more likely to succeed vs. just throwing Pagan out there over and over for like 5 years. Danchat and DocBauer 2
JD-TWINS Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 25 minutes ago, Beast said: This is where the FO has struggled. It’s already cost the team a couple of of games. They have this pompousity that they can turn guys Pagan and Megill into good pitchers where nobody else could. You’re better off paying a little money and signing somebody. If they’re so smart in regard to pitching, why can’t they go identify someone like Chapman on a 1 year $3M deal? He’s got 17 strikeouts in 10 appearances and a WHIP under 1.00. I know that’s hit or miss also, but a lot more likely to succeed vs. just throwing Pagan out there over and over for like 5 years. I can’t stand that Pagán is still on the staff but Aroldis Chapman is a very hit & miss guy as are most relievers. Very hit & miss. Pagan is in his 4th week of his 2nd year with the club……..not like his 5th year? Problem with Pagán is that he has stuff that plays better in the Pen than many guys in the system - you assume if a guy can practice well he’ll play well. He doesn’t have the guts/smarts to pitch in tight situations. Tough to quantify these things for the guys behind him as well………..we need to eat the $4M & move on at some point. darwin22 and DocBauer 2
PatPfund Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 The real problem is we are not just short a middle reliever. Moran skipped AAA (except for a few messy outings), and it looked for a while (last year) like that worked. Now his MLB stats are starting to get messy as well, and it may just be he isn't good enough/isn't ready. Pagán hasn't had a few bad outings, he was a toss-in on a trade because his HR/innings pitched is brutal, and has been for years. And there is the revolving door at the multi-innings spot (where Sands has actually had several chances to kick in the door; unfortunately the frisbee slider comes with erratic control, and when Cole has to throw a strike, the fastball is very, very hittable). These three weak links haven't burned us (too much) so far, but it is a long season, and we can't essentially cede games down a few runs and the SP out after 3, because we can't afford to burn out our "A" RPs, and the only alternative is a rack of Molotov cocktail arms. Winder would be nice (if healthy). Maeda is possibly a great alternative (putting a Grade A arm in the 'pen, and calling on our deeper reserve of AAA starters). But this is also an area where offseason moves fell short, and if there is going to be a mid-season move, right now another very good reliever would be at the top of my shopping list (at least for now). (Good thing is RPs are a far cheaper/more readily available "get" than trying to rebuild half of the rotation, which is our usual goal.)
Jeff K Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 5 hours ago, Nine of twelve said: This has been said before by a few of us: Kenta Maeda. Move him to the pen and insert Ober or Varland into the rotation. That is the move I'm looking for. DJL44 1
Major League Ready Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 Count me along with the others that support moving Maeda to the pen and Ober into the rotation. Add Winder to the BP as well and the whole thing looks a lot better IMO. The pen would be Duran / Lopez / Jax / Thielbar / Maeda / Winder and two of Alcala / Sands / Henriquez and Stewart. Hopefully Alcala and Henriquez bounce back. That would give them a lot of flexibility with guys that could go 2 or even 3 innings.
darwin22 Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 Late to join the conversation, but after the strong performance today by Headrick (5 IP/ 83 pitches....allowing only 2 ER on 3 hits and 2 BB to go with 8K's, imo, he's the man for the job. I have zero faith in Sands. Winder, though, merits strong consideration if Headrick moves higher in the pecking order as #2 LH RP behind Thielbar. This could be happening very soon as Moran needs to be demoted to SP. Moving Maeda into a long relief role is a pretty much a moot point now after getting lit up trying to pitch hurt. I expect a long absence is coming. McGregor and ashbury 2
DocBauer Old-Timey Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 6 hours ago, Craig Arko said: The obvious answer here is Winder. I’d like to see how that plays out and am not opposed to the idea of having two multi-inning relievers; say Winder and Headrick. 100%! Where is it written that a pair of middle relievers on your squad are bad arms? Just because they might not be able to...at this time...hold down one of the back end spots doesn't make them no valuable. On the contrary, they can be VERY VALUABLE as a bridge between the starter and that back end of the pen. And there WILL be some days where your non high leverage arms are going to have to be used in a high end spot. It's just baseball, and a never ending series of games. I'm impressed with the early results of Headrick. I like Winder. But I also have a lot of hope for Lawyerson and Henriquez, and really think Sands has a shot for this kind of role as well. There is room, at times, for a long man. Honestly, I care about the first 7 in the pen and can live with the 8th spot being a rotation area for solid journeymen, or youngsters earning their way on to the roster. In regard to Balazovic, I'm sure he can help in a shorter role. And that's how he's being used now. And it makes sense after essentially missing all of ST and fighting to keep on weight and strength through protein shakes for several weeks. But I fully expect him to be stretched out again at some point. You don't just give up on a potential starting arm that was top 100 a little over a year ago this soon.
Nine of twelve Verified Member Posted April 26, 2023 Posted April 26, 2023 10 hours ago, Nine of twelve said: This has been said before by a few of us: Kenta Maeda. Move him to the pen and insert Ober or Varland into the rotation. After today's game I have changed my mind. Maeda needs to go on the IL with a rehab assignment and it needs to be stretched out long. If after his rehab assignment he clearly shows that he can get major league hitters out then he goes into the bullpen. Otherwise DFA.
tony&rodney Old-Timey Member Posted April 27, 2023 Posted April 27, 2023 Looks like Headrick did a pretty good job today. I'm not too worried about the relief pitching right now. All of Sands, Stewart, Winder, and Headrick along with a couple of others maybe can handle reduced roles as a 7th or 8th pitcher in the bullpen. More concerned with the bats and inconsistent defense. Still, things are going fairly well thus far.
jorgenswest Verified Member Posted April 27, 2023 Posted April 27, 2023 They don’t need a middle reliever. They need another effective reliever and probably two. Four reliable relievers isn’t enough. Someone needs to join that group. stringer bell and Riverbrian 2
stringer bell Verified Member Posted April 27, 2023 Posted April 27, 2023 I don't know if the Twins front office bullpen management has cost them any games. It could be argued that if they handled the bullpen better in the first Boston game they might have won that game. I really doubt that they win the game that Maeda left early in Boston, but maybe. There isn't depth in their "front end " of the bullpen. They are riding four good to great bullpen pieces (Jax, Thielbar, JLopez and Duran) and the long guys (Sands and Headrick) have been fine. It is the trio of Alcala, Pagan and Moran that has provided heartburn and I don't see many alternatives. They'll try Stewart and keep going back to Pagan and Moran for now. I don't think they are good enough right now. Danchat and NotAboutWinning 2
mnfireman Verified Member Posted April 27, 2023 Posted April 27, 2023 Twins starters have averaged almost 6 IP per start (124.1 over 21 starts), not including Maeda's 16 IP over 4 starts (very Archeresque). 4 stud relievers to cover 3 innings should do it. Headrick is locked into the long reliever role (for now), and Pagan, Alcala & Moran, while not completely reliable, are serviceable. Not to be trusted in close games, but serviceable. Look at most teams, the BP's pretty much look the same. They need a 5th starter before they need a middle-reliever, and Ober and Varland are available, amongst other potential options.
stringer bell Verified Member Posted April 27, 2023 Posted April 27, 2023 4 minutes ago, mnfireman said: Twins starters have averaged almost 6 IP per start (124.1 over 21 starts), not including Maeda's 16 IP over 4 starts (very Archeresque). 4 stud relievers to cover 3 innings should do it. Headrick is locked into the long reliever role (for now), and Pagan, Alcala & Moran, while not completely reliable, are serviceable. Not to be trusted in close games, but serviceable. Look at most teams, the BP's pretty much look the same. They need a 5th starter before they need a middle-reliever, and Ober and Varland are available, amongst other potential options. With today's bullpens, at least seven of the eight arms there will end up in higher leverage games (up or down by two runs or less). Having guys more trustworthy than what Pagan and Moran have shown is a must in the course of a long season. It would be nice to add guys who aren't one-inning pitchers, since the four back-end guys won't be working multiple innings very often.
Cody Pirkl Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 27, 2023 Author Posted April 27, 2023 13 hours ago, Trov said: You kind of contradict yourself in the article. You say we need a middle relief guy because Pagan and Moran have struggled in that roll, but then make comment we can use a lot of different people because only going to pitch in blow outs. Other than his last outing of terrible work, Pagan has been fine in that roll. Moran has been an issue giving up runs in most of his outings. If it does not matter who we throw out there because they are only to eat up innings in blowouts, why do we need someone that will do it better? I am mainly pointing out the contradicting statements the writer posed. Do you want Pagán or Morán pitching let's say in the 6th inning of a 2 run ball game? The Twins just went to Lopez and Duran in a 4 run game the other night. Maybe in that scenario against the Yankees they'd have done it the same regardless, but they'll probably continue doing things like that because they probably don't and shouldn't trust either of their traditional middle relievers to get 3 outs before they give up 4 runs. stringer bell and ashbury 2
stringer bell Verified Member Posted April 27, 2023 Posted April 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said: Do you want Pagán or Morán pitching let's say in the 6th inning of a 2 run ball game? The Twins just went to Lopez and Duran in a 4 run game the other night. Maybe in that scenario against the Yankees they'd have done it the same regardless, but they'll probably continue doing things like that because they probably don't and shouldn't trust either of their traditional middle relievers to get 3 outs before they give up 4 runs. Didn't want to "like" your comment, but totally agree. They need more than four relievers they trust in the BP. Cody Pirkl 1
MTV Verified Member Posted April 27, 2023 Posted April 27, 2023 Im seeing a lot of comments about Balazovic and Winder turning into quality middle-relievers, and while I think it could work, I wouldn’t push it. Let’s see these guys pitch some starts for a couple of months, there’s no point in turning a quality starter into a reliever unless he’s struggling, you can turn a good starter prospect into 2 good relievers if you’re smart. I think Sands and Moran are contenders, but trading for a reliever or 2 wouldn’t be hard. Let’s be patient.
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