Twins 4, Red Sox 5: Bizarre Walk-Off Caps Strange Loss in Boston

[Riverbrian]

For anyone who typed "Washed Up Sale" or the equivalent sentiment. You didn't watch the game.

If you watched the game... you wouldn't have typed it.

Sale was painting backdoor sliders from the 1st base line all game long. The umpire was consistently giving strikes at least two inches off right side of the plate and Sale was painting that area with his fastball. 

With that said... The K's are too much. Our Twins need to figure out how to put more balls in play. 

On Kepler and that final play. Yeah. I'm Kepler disappointed upon further review. 

The degree of difficulty to catch that ball is probably off the charts... IMO very few if any catch that ball.... It would have probably required a Derek Jeter type full speed run with momentum taking him directly into the stands to make that catch.

However... Kepler clearly slowed up BEFORE the warning track. He thought it was out of play? he thought something but he clearly slowed up before the warning track.

I'm not a fan of slowing up before the warning track. 

[wabene]

14 minutes ago, beterday said:

 

True, very true, my friend. 

[CRF]

Just a brutal game to watch. Only getting 4 hits in that mess, is abysmal. No way that Moran should be in that situation, I hate Pagan, but I would have thrown him in there. I honestly don't know what the deal is with Kep...he looks out of it at times, but he did hit the homer. He looks like he doesn't care anymore. The strikeouts are unbelievable! We're so lost at the plate, it's comical. We better figure out some things real soon, or we'll be doing the slow ride to never-never land again. 

[cheeseheadgophfan]

I just laugh at the people who are now advocating we give the ball to Pagan in a save situation.......you would've slashed Rocco's tires had he brought Pagan in the game and he blew it. 

[Beast]

All of the other things aside, what are we doing pitching a guy like Moran, who can’t throw a damn strike, in a 4-2 game in Fenway Park?  Throw someone even remotely competent and it’s game over.  Quit overthinking it, Baldelli.  Lefty-lefty matchups make no difference when your lefty can’t throw a strike.  At the very least, have the wherewithal to see that Moran isn’t getting it done and make a change.  I was at a gathering for work and every casual sitting there watching the game was making that call.

That’s just a crap loss to take, and one that should’ve been avoided if proper decisions were made from the dugout.  Talk about the players not holding up their end all you want, but they (except Moran) did enough to win that one.  You can’t always decline criticism on the manager and point at the players.

[bighat]

7 minutes ago, CRF said:

Just a brutal game to watch.The strikeouts are unbelievable! We're so lost at the plate, it's comical. We better figure out some things real soon, or we'll be doing the slow ride to never-never land again. 

Agreed. 

Say what you will about the pitching, this team is NOT fun to watch. Aside from that 1st inning in New York last week, it's been complete torture watching this offense. 

And who's gonna save 'em? Gallo? Polanco? Kirilloff? 

Yeah they better figure this out. You'd have thought going against a pitcher coming in with a 16+ ERA would have been just the right medicine, but they couldn't even make contact against him. Same with Grienke when they faced him on opening day. 

Abysmal.  

[Vanimal46]

9 hours ago, jkcarew said:

To be fair, Rocco backed himself into a corner by sticking with Moran all the way to the Refsnyer AB. By that time, he’s going to look bad if he leaves Moran in to get beat…but, he also looks pretty silly bringing in a right-hander (even ‘good’ Pagan) to face Verdugo and/or Devers with the game on the line. IMO, he needed to make the move to Pagan right away…and give Pagan a chance to clean up the mess against the bottom of the order.

The LH vs LH matchup should have been thrown out of consideration when Moran couldn’t throw strikes. Then it should be ineffective vs. potentially effective to get the last out and live to fight for another inning. 

[wabene]

Sonny Gray was gutsy and battled his tail off, but he did leave the team in a position that was all too familiar last year. The answer was a long man to save the big guns for later. The problem was it was a tight game and the long guy was a rookie who hadn't played yet. Make all the plays that were there and they still would've won this ugly game. 

[specialiststeve]

Rocco back at his misuse and lack of understanding "roles" in the bullpen. Why would you use your second best reliever in the 6th. Lopez has to be pitching either the 9th or 10th. Argh! 

[MGX]

Lack of awareness, lack of execution & lack of urgency.

[cheeseheadgophfan]

23 minutes ago, Beast said:

All of the other things aside, what are we doing pitching a guy like Moran, who can’t throw a damn strike, in a 4-2 game in Fenway Park?  Throw someone even remotely competent and it’s game over.  Quit overthinking it, Baldelli.  Lefty-lefty matchups make no difference when your lefty can’t throw a strike.  At the very least, have the wherewithal to see that Moran isn’t getting it done and make a change.  I was at a gathering for work and every casual sitting there watching the game was making that call.

That’s just a crap loss to take, and one that should’ve been avoided if proper decisions were made from the dugout.  Talk about the players not holding up their end all you want, but they (except Moran) did enough to win that one.  You can’t always decline criticism on the manager and point at the players.

He walked one guy....he was throwing strikes....he was ahead of most of the hitters.  Lots of soft contact, seeing eye hits.   Verdugo's hit was a Fenway special.  That stuff seems to happen at Fenway.  The D killed us.  Vazquez had a bad game defensively.  

[2wins87]

Honestly the way the game started it seemed like they might steal the win in the middle innings.

Sale was almost back to his old self and Gray was fighting through it.  He made some really great pitches to get out of jams in several spots.  He doesn't do that (and/or the Red Sox lineup is more competent) and we're not even talking about the weirdness in the last few innings.

I did question the Moran choice in my head as soon as the move was made.  I have no trust in Pagan after repeatedly seeing him pitch his worst with small leads last year.  However, you kind of know that Moran is going to walk one or two guys at this point.  After they managed to score 2 runs, the last thing you want is a guy who is going to put more guys on base than just the zombie runner.  In a one run game I think I might actually feel different and take my chances with the guy who is a little wild but can get more strikeouts.  Who knows though, Pagan probably would have walked a guy and then served up a homer.

Sometimes the weird and bad plays come in pivotal moments and that's what happened last night.  Vasquez has been great but he was involved in two plays that changed the whole outlook last night. I also don't think I give too much blame to Kepler on that last play.  He catches that ball in any other ballpark, but Fenway is just a very dumb ballpark.  Maybe he should have gotten over to the wall better, but the ball was in the trickiest possible spot for a visiting right fielder so I don't know. 

[2wins87]

25 minutes ago, specialiststeve said:

Rocco back at his misuse and lack of understanding "roles" in the bullpen. Why would you use your second best reliever in the 6th. Lopez has to be pitching either the 9th or 10th. Argh! 

I don't have a problem with that since he is going for the win at that point, and it worked to keep the game tied and they took the lead in the next half inning.  Imagine the outcry if Headrick had been brought in and gave up 4 runs or something.

But Rocco does always tend to empty his bullpen of the best guys in those situations.  I could be wrong, but I think he's even talked about having the high leverage bullpen arms go 2 innings at times.  Lopez has been super efficient in almost every outing so far, but hasn't started a second inning once.  Rocco clearly wanted Thielbar against their lefties at the top of the order, but I also wouldn't have minded seeing Lopez get a second inning after needing just 10 pitches in his first inning.  It'd save a few bullets and give them more flexibility later, or possibly in today's game.

[stringer bell]

10 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Jax was terrific. Mistakes by Vasquez on the catcher's interference, Solano suffering a brain blip, and Gordon's poor throw home were all tough, especially the latter two. Moran draws a ton of heat but as brutal as that inning was, it is over if Kepler catches that ball. A weird ending of a game where the Twins strike out 16 times. As good as the pitching has been, winning is really tough when the bats are flailing in such a severe upper cut style. The mathematics makes contact probability odds slim. Better days ahead. Kirilloff hit the ball hard three times tonight and made a couple of good plays at first base.  

None of the hits Boston got were hard hit and Moran struck out a guy who then reached base. Yes, he walked a guy and pitched himself into trouble, but it wasn’t like batting practice. 

[Aggies7]

Not only did Kepler fail to give 100% on the play, once it fell fair, he ran after it and threw it back into the infield as if he had any play whatsoever. 2 outs and runners on the corners. He should have known the game was over regardless. I don’t think he had any idea what the situation was there, which is wildly concerning in an extra inning scenario 

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

I just laugh at the people who are now advocating we give the ball to Pagan in a save situation.......you would've slashed Rocco's tires had he brought Pagan in the game and he blew it. 

False. I wanted Pagan.

[Byrdman]

When your starter is pulled after 5 innings that is when you use your long man out of the pen.  I 100% blame the loss on Rocco for the pitcher usage tonight.  I assume a reliver is moved today to bring in a fresh arm.  I was irritated the whole game i don't know why. 

[weneedneshek]

4 hours ago, LewFordLives said:

I'm getting a little tired of washed up pitchers finding their old magic against the Twins. 

Next up, Corey Kluber!

[farmerguychris]

Does Moran remind anybody else of Pagan where I'm worried that as good as his stuff looks analytic wise - it just doesn't pass the real life game test?  Hope we don't keep throwing him out there like they have done with other relief pitchers who can't generate results.

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, specialiststeve said:

Rocco back at his misuse and lack of understanding "roles" in the bullpen. Why would you use your second best reliever in the 6th. Lopez has to be pitching either the 9th or 10th. Argh! 

With the top or the red Sox order featuring 3 LH hitters in the next 4 (including the first 2) projecting Thielbar to take the 7th makes a ton of sense. So really you're talking about maybe flipping Lopez & Jax for 6th v 8th...unless you wanted to put Pagan or Moran out against the Red Sox in the 6th, but that puts you in a different kind of problem where you're "saving" one of your best relievers for a 10th inning that might never happen. Did the manager really make an error here or did things just get weird in the 8th with Jax on the mound and it went sideways?

Gray was really struggling last night, but did a fine job gutting through 5. Scattered a lot of baserunners and wriggled out of trouble.

Offense needs to do better, that's just a reality. But sale was taking everything the ump was giving him...and he got a fair amount.

[Schmoeman5]

I keep reading how Gray "gutted it out" Isn't he the one who said that mgmt needed to let starters go longer? Not tax or rely on the bullpen so much. Him gutting it out would have been coming out for the 6th. Even if he doesn't complete that inning it's still set up for Thielbar in the 7th. Then Lopez and Duran. Kepler did hit a homer but now his defense is suspect, not because he's bad, but more so because he's not 100%. He's not running well. That last play would have been a great catch if made, but due to the fact of his fear or injury or lack of hustle, there was no chance. He made a terrible play on that homer in Yankee Stadium and didn't run hard on the 1st inning gapper in Boston. If hes not 100% why is he out there?

[KirbyDome89]

This team has completed 9 innings with 2 or fewer runs 9x in 17 games. They're 3-6 in those games. 

As a side note, Nick Gordon currently has a -31 OPS+. I didn't realize that was possible...

[KirbyDome89]

9 hours ago, h2oface said:

This is the kind of game that if you don't have a favorite team playing, is really really fun to watch. Very entertaining without a horse in the race, and you love baseball.

You're a glutton for punishment. 

If I tuned in and saw a 2-2 game where MN had 4 hits and 16 Ks through 9 innings + Boston had 11-12 Ks and was 2-15 (or something similar) with RISP I'm immediately checking out. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

13 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Baffling that Moran continued to pitch after Refsnyder grounded into the double play. He clearly didn’t have it tonight and Pagan was warming (warmed?) in the pen. 

4 hits in 10 innings isn’t going to cut it. Neither is 3 errors in the field. The walk off is classic Fenway shenanigans. 

But it was a lefty on lefty situation.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

13 hours ago, USAFChief said:

So much to dislike:

Awful offense. Just awful. 

Really poor defense, from many corners. Solano, Gordon, Vasquez. 

Some questionable managing, IYAM. I don't like Moran in ANY situation, and hated him in extra innings here. That's not a second guess, either. I would rather have seen anyone, and would have actually preferred Pagan. And once it's clear Moran is scared to death, you have to get him out of the game.

Sale had something to do with part of the Twins awful offense. But the other Boston pitchers, not so much. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

13 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Disagree. With a day off preceding, going with four one-inning relievers would have left four available with no one working consecutive days. Due to the fielding misplays, it didn’t work out. I think López and Thielbar and maybe Duran can go tomorrow in addition to those that didn’t work today. Seven innings from Ryan would be helpful. 

Good point. I had forgotten about the day off. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

3 hours ago, CRF said:

Just a brutal game to watch. Only getting 4 hits in that mess, is abysmal. No way that Moran should be in that situation, I hate Pagan, but I would have thrown him in there. I honestly don't know what the deal is with Kep...he looks out of it at times, but he did hit the homer. He looks like he doesn't care anymore. The strikeouts are unbelievable! We're so lost at the plate, it's comical. We better figure out some things real soon, or we'll be doing the slow ride to never-never land again. 

How about asking Buck to bunt in order to remind him what it is like to have bat to ball contact. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

2 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Not only did Kepler fail to give 100% on the play, once it fell fair, he ran after it and threw it back into the infield as if he had any play whatsoever. 2 outs and runners on the corners. He should have known the game was over regardless. I don’t think he had any idea what the situation was there, which is wildly concerning in an extra inning scenario 

I agree. That is very concerning about Kepler's lazy play.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

13 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Jax was terrific. Mistakes by Vasquez on the catcher's interference, Solano suffering a brain blip, and Gordon's poor throw home were all tough, especially the latter two. Moran draws a ton of heat but as brutal as that inning was, it is over if Kepler catches that ball. A weird ending of a game where the Twins strike out 16 times. As good as the pitching has been, winning is really tough when the bats are flailing in such a severe upper cut style. The mathematics makes contact probability odds slim. Better days ahead. Kirilloff hit the ball hard three times tonight and made a couple of good plays at first base.  

 The score was tied when Kep failed to catch the ball. Therefore it would not all be over if Kep had caught the ball. We would have been subjected to another inning watching the Twins' hitters flail away at the air and then Pagan trying to throw strikes and trying to keep the ball in the park. But if I'm frustrated, think how the Twins players must feel right now.  Today's game (Wednesday) is the most important game of the year, because it is today's game. 

[RpR]

The poor throw to Solano and Solano coming off the bag lost the game.

You could see Baldelli knew that , and was very upset with that turn of events but as there were other failings last night he was not going to say it.