Twins 4, Guardians 6: Another Late-Inning Rally Falls Short

[Karbo]

I don't understand how they keep starting Archer. He seems to be done at least this year. I have my doubts he can be a decent pitcher any more. He has lost the velocity on his fastball, slider isn't effective, and he can't seem to control any off speed pitches. Stick a fork in there, he's cooked!

[tarheeltwinsfan]

I saw last night that the major league leader at making outs by hitting into the shift was slow running Carlos Santana. In second place was our fleet footed Max Kepler. (Quoting Dick Bremer: "And another two bouncer to the second baseman by Kepler for the final out of the inning.") Not hitting against the shift is a second example of stubbornness on Max's part. When Max was not allowed to go to play in the Toronto series, because he refused to get vaccinated, Rocco said in a Strib quote:  "That's also a group that doesn't want to be told what to do." Rocco was referring to Kepler, Pagan, Thielbar and Megill. According to the Strib article, missing those 3 games cost Max $108,289 in salary; Pagan -$36,898; Theilbar -$20,856 and Megill - $11,230. It also meant that the team had to bring up 4 minor leaguers to take the places of the 4 major leaguers for the trip to Toronto.  That's pretty stubborn in my book. Some of you will disagree, and I admit I do not have the reasons why any of the players refused to get vaccinated, except Pagan, which I still did not understand when I read it, however in my humble opinion, it possibly could show a "Me first " attitude. There is no "I" in team. 

[insagt1]

The pressure is off IMO. There will be no AL Central crown for these guys and frankly they don't deserve it anyway. Just play out the string and be done with it. When you try and comeback from 7-0 and 6-0 deficits on consecutive nights, what realistically does anyone expect? All the games left with Cleve and Chi really are irrelevant now because they would have to win just about all of them to gain back the ground they are losing now. Twins aren't nearly good enough to run the table, so we need to face the facts that this is a 3rd place team that may not finish over .500. If they win a few more, fine. But the 'talent' they currently have available to play isn't good enough.

They should probably shut Buxton down for the  year now. What good will he be coming back with a handful of games left and Twins completely out of the race? Let him heal and see what plague will infect him in 2023.

Its football and hockey time.

[Vanimal46]

All of the banked wins from April through the end of May are gone. May 25th was the first time the Twins were 10 games over .500. They’ve been performing like a 90 loss team since that date. 

[roger]

The Twins are not a good baseball team right now.  But what should we expect when the lineup, and pitching staff, is half AAAA type players.  We lead the league in players on the IL, perhaps biggest question should be why?

Time to sit back, watch three minor league teams in the playoffs and get ready for spring training.

[chinmusic]

Might be time to recalibrate  expectations .

Arraez at .316; second to Bogaerts .318 in AL batting race.

Just a thought on Correa.  Watching him play, his defense, leadership qualities, durability and stats on offense,  he has been very solid. It's the contract that unfairly diminishes the perception of what in fact, has been a fine year. I'll miss him, and what a pity that there was not a healthy Buxton in the lineup along with him.

[DJL44]

6 minutes ago, chinmusic said:

what a pity that there was not a healthy Buxton in the lineup along with him.

I am convinced this will never exist. That's like a healthy late-career Tony Oliva.

[terrydactyls]

2 hours ago, rv78 said:

"Kepler has had a below-normal batting average (.230) than previous seasons."

Sorry but not correct. This is not below average for him. His batting averages over his career have been .143, .235, 243, 224, 252, 228, 211, and this year .230. Collectively he is hitting .233. It is normal for him. Be it bad luck or not being smart enough to adjust to a shift he has become the new Sano when it's time to kill a rally and the brilliant Rocco who supposedly goes by the numbers ignores his ineptitude and continues to bat him in the middle of the lineup. 

I know I'm old and don't understand the new analytics of today's game but, technically speaking, .230 is below .233.  Ergo, the statement by the OP is correct.

[terrydactyls]

1 hour ago, Karbo said:

You are correct, Madden did lead the way in analytics. However, recently in an article on the Athletic he says its gone to far. At this point I think there is a lot of people that would be a better manager than Rocco.

And just for clarification, please list some of the "lot of people that would be a better manager than Rocco".

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

33 minutes ago, chinmusic said:

Might be time to recalibrate  expectations .

Arraez at .316; second to Bogaerts .318 in AL batting race.

Just a thought on Correa.  Watching him play, his defense, leadership qualities, durability and stats on offense,  he has been very solid. It's the contract that unfairly diminishes the perception of what in fact, has been a fine year. I'll miss him, and what a pity that there was not a healthy Buxton in the lineup along with him.

Good comment.

Signing Correa raised fan expectations for this team to make a postseason run, as it should have. 

Expecting Buxton to remain healthy to the end seems misguided in hindsight. 

What should fans expect, going forward? What will be Dave St. Peter’s sales pitch to the season ticket holders for 2023? I am not one, but I look forward to hearing what that is.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

FYI Derek Falvey will be interviewed by Cory Provus on Inside Twins today at 12 noon, if you are driving at that time or looking for something to have on until Vikings kickof— I mean, Twins first pitch  

[mikelink45]

This note from MLB.com is worth thinking about - "Archer hasn’t lasted longer than five innings in any of his 25 starts this season. Early on, he was successful in short stints, but lately his short outings had started to tax the bullpen. Archer was 2-3 with a 3.14 ERA in his first 14 starts and the team was 7-7 in those outings. In 10 starts prior to Saturday, Minnesota was 1-9 in Archer’s outings and he was 0-4 with a 6.23 ERA."

[Rosterman]

Once again, the Twins don't give up!

Sands, FOUR walks and two hit batters. Thank goodness for a double play. But talk about a 39 pitch inning with few strikes. We all wanted him out. He ate some innings, gave up anotehr run putting the team deeper in the hole. Good or bad? Well, at that point Baldelli felt it was a B-game and we were to see Megill and Pagan. A game with four pitchers that shouldn't be on any contending team, if you are really contending. But is there replacements?

Winder, Ober, Larnach, Jeffers at some point are expected back. 40-man roster spots have to be found for all.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Buck, Kirilloff, Larnach, Maeda, Polanco, Jeffers, Mahle all would have been significant additions to the Twins, if they were able to play today. - 4 or 5 possible starting position players and 2 starting pitchers. - These injuries are what doomed the Twins. Not Kepler failing to hit against the shift, not Pagan, not Rocco, not failure to sacrifice bunt (though I would still like to see more bunting), not Tommy Watkins, not Sands' walks, not Wes Johnson leaving, and certainly not Sano. It was the injuries that doomed the Twins to "slightly below average". 

[Rosterman]

Kepler batting cleanup? Why not get that extra at bat and have him bat lead-off.

Wait, let's have Garlick lead-off and Kepler back second. And, it's only Cleveland. Let's rest Correa, Arraez in the same game.

[Blyleven2011]

11 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

We have gone from trying to win the division to trying to stay above 500. The real question is can we do it

We are now in third place and now we have 2 teams to beat for the division  ...

we have never been in third place since we led the division most of the season  ... 

This team reminds me of the loveable losers  ( cubbies )

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

After today, and Monday’s day off, my understanding is that the rotations sets up: 

• Tues: Ryan
• Wed: Gray
• Thurs: Bundy

then the Cleveland series:

• Fri: Archer? 
• Saturday doubleheader: some combination of Winder, Varland, and Ober returns? 

Then Sunday and Monday turns back over to Ryan and Gray to wrap up with Cleveland.

This is baseball, so we know that “funnier things have happened,” but the Twins just can’t afford to lose any more ground at this point. 

[Blyleven2011]

I'm done thinking we will win 10 games in arow  ...

Go twins

[MABB1959]

It is not a team.  It is a mix match of players.  I could be wrong but their is not a true closer or DH.  Correa, Buxton and Polanco seem to be the only players in their “true” position.  The rest seem to be randomly thrown into different positions.  IMO total failure in building a roster.  

[KirbyDome89]

11 hours ago, ashbury said:

Reliable sources tell us that Cleveland is offering to pay the 2023 options/salaries for both Bundy and Archer. 

To stay with the Twins another season.

#Value

[puckstopper1]

@Sherry Cerny - Thank you for the writeups  I usually appreciate your optimism, but this is too Pollyanna: 

"Pagan and the Bullpen Keep Twins in Games"

The bullpen gave up 4 runs in 5 innings.  Not exactly lock-down.  The only thing they did was save the other arms in the bullpen.  And Pagan continues to struggle even though he is being used in low leverage situations.

 

 

[mikelink45]

I went to the leader board for individual stats and it is amazing.  When you put our team leaders versus overall leaders we are really lacking.  For example Judge has 120 RBIS (yes runs count or we would not be whining about RISP) and our leader is the rookie - Miranda with 61.  Going through all the categories - Buxton still ranks high with HRs, but otherwise it is Correa and Arraez in most categories and they do not rank high except for Arraez in BA and hits.  The pitchers do not make the leaderboard because they do not have enough innings.  Looking at this tells me that the Twins at 500, in the middle of the team rankings are where they belong - which I am sorry to report. 

[SanoMustGo]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

I am convinced this will never exist. That's like a healthy late-career Tony Oliva.

Never say never, but regarding Buxton, hightly doubtful.  Next year might be the final straw to start a rebuild if it's anything like the last two season.

[SanoMustGo]

Just now, mikelink45 said:

I went to the leader board for individual stats and it is amazing.  When you put our team leaders versus overall leaders we are really lacking.  For example Judge has 120 RBIS (yes runs count or we would not be whining about RISP) and our leader is the rookie - Miranda with 61.  Going through all the categories - Buxton still ranks high with HRs, but otherwise it is Correa and Arraez in most categories and they do not rank high except for Arraez in BA and hits.  The pitchers do not make the leaderboard because they do not have enough innings.  Looking at this tells me that the Twins at 500, in the middle of the team rankings are where they belong - which I am sorry to report. 

middle of the rankings, and dropping

[tony&rodney]

2 hours ago, chinmusic said:

Just a thought on Correa.  Watching him play, his defense, leadership qualities, durability and stats on offense,  he has been very solid. It's the contract that unfairly diminishes the perception of what in fact, has been a fine year.

Correa has been terrific at shortstop and mostly takes great at bats. The Twins need to make a decision - pay Correa or live with Jermaine Palacios for a year or two while waiting for Lewis, Lee, or another to step forward or hope Palacios finds a MLB bat. The money spent on Correa is really irrelevant. For those concerned about money, look to those salaries that deliver much less: Sano, Kepler, Sanchez, Pagan, etc. Folks need to get over the contracts of key players and see the value. I am much more concerned about the expenditures on Buxton than on Correa. There is always a budget and superstars fit into every budget. Cleveland finds money for Jose Ramirez. The mistakes in drafting and developing combined with identifying value players are much more key than spending $35+ million to Correa.

[ashbury]

10 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

The Twins need to make a decision - pay Correa or live with Jermaine Palacios for a year or two while waiting for Lewis, Lee, or another to step forward or hope Palacios finds a MLB bat.

Not 100% sure from the way you phrased it, but I hope it's understood the Twins have no say regarding Correa.  They are committed by contract.  Correa is the one with a decision to make.

[RpR]

2 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Buck, Kirilloff, Larnach, Maeda, Polanco, Jeffers, Mahle all would have been significant additions to the Twins, if they were able to play today. - 4 or 5 possible starting position players and 2 starting pitchers. - These injuries are what doomed the Twins. Not Kepler failing to hit against the shift, not Pagan, not Rocco, not failure to sacrifice bunt (though I would still like to see more bunting), not Tommy Watkins, not Sands' walks, not Wes Johnson leaving, and certainly not Sano. It was the injuries that doomed the Twins to "slightly below average". 

AT best wishful thinking as no one has any idea how thr rookies would have performed .

[tony&rodney]

6 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Not 100% sure from the way you phrased it, but I hope it's understood the Twins have no say regarding Correa.  They are committed by contract.  Correa is the one with a decision to make.

Sorry for not including that Correa has the opt out and will almost certainly be a free agent, which means the Twins will have the option to negotiate with him as can any other team. Correct, Correa makes the call.

[ashbury]

2 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Sorry for not including that Correa has the opt out and will almost certainly be a free agent, which means the Twins will have the option to negotiate with him as can any other team. Correct, Correa makes the call.

That's fair.  Even before the opt-out date, the Twins do have a decision whether to try to negotiate some different deal that keeps him with the team for a different period of time than the present agreement.

[h2oface]

6 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

Remember, Joe started the analytics drive in Tampa and that seems to be a big part of the fan base disappointment with Baldelli. Rocco can’t bat for Keppler & Polanco nor can he pitch for Duffey, Pagan, nor J. Smith……..nor our recently acquired closer, Mr Lopez….. Neither can Joe Madden [sic].

I think you might not have been following Joe's progression. Get him before Texas does. Some take it far too far.

 

Joe Maddon sounds off on analytics in baseball: It’s not the info, it’s the imposition

https://theathletic.com/3568605/2022/09/06/joe-maddon-analytics-baseball/

Joe Maddon On Analytics: 'Players Don't Need All This Information'

https://www.si.com/mlb/rangers/news/joe-maddon-analytics-podcast-texas-manager-candidate-mlb-news