Vazquez

[Mike Sixel]

Yikes. Another year after this? He catches more than Jeffers, and is one of the worst hitters in all of baseball. Not just bad, like, historically bad. The Twins are giving away games not starting Jeffers at catcher more. And, another year?

What prospect would you give up to get rid of Vazquez's salary? This team will be over it's limit again next year, just from raises......and they can't afford to pay or play this guy any more. 

[bean5302]

No top 20 prospects. Baseballtradevalues has gone pretty much totally paid only so I can only guess Vazquez's value. I'll be generous and estimate Vazquez's FV at $5MM with his salary for this and next year at $15MM. So right now, we'll say Vazquez is worth -$10MM. A prospect in that category is probably around #5-10ish in the system.

Falvey can make the bed he's been laying in. Trading away prospects to try and save a few bucks smacks of the old Phil Hughes deal to San Diego. The Twins parted with a Comp B pick in that move.

[Mike Sixel]

Vazquez isn't worth 5 million right now, imo. 

I don't like the idea either, but if this is the budget, you have to cut someplace. I do appreciate your excellent response.

[Dman]

Yeah I was just thinking about this when people were mentioning keeping Kepler.  They have 84M tied up in Correa, Lopez, Buxton and Vasquez next year.  Shedding Vasquez's salary almost seems like a must if they are going to make any moves.  There will be arb raises to deal with and they might have to beef up the outfield if they let Kepler go.

I love the guys defense, but the bat is nearly an automatic out.  If the Twins FO is willing to spend more next year it might not matter that much, but if they are keeping things around 130M I don't love the idea of 10M of that being taken by Vasquez. I don't think I could stomach sending a prospect to get rid of him.  He has value as a backup catcher just not 10M worth of value IMO.

[Linus]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

No top 20 prospects. Baseballtradevalues has gone pretty much totally paid only so I can only guess Vazquez's value. I'll be generous and estimate Vazquez's FV at $5MM with his salary for this and next year at $15MM. So right now, we'll say Vazquez is worth -$10MM. A prospect in that category is probably around #5-10ish in the system.

Falvey can make the bed he's been laying in. Trading away prospects to try and save a few bucks smacks of the old Phil Hughes deal to San Diego. The Twins parted with a Comp B pick in that move.

I think this is an accurate assessment of his value. I was just thinking to myself that Yankee fans aren’t sitting around bemoaning that $10 million they are wasting. 

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Lot's of talk about Vazquez bat, but I wonder how much of his value is tied into helping Jeffers improve defensively and in general, helping the pitching staff, helping to game plan on a nightly basis.  His leadership may be playing a huge role in Jeffers and staff development...

[FlyingFinn]

1 minute ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Lot's of talk about Vazquez bat, but I wonder how much of his value is tied into helping Jeffers improve defensively and in general, helping the pitching staff, helping to game plan on a nightly basis.  His leadership may be playing a huge role in Jeffers and staff development...

Let's have him retire and become a coach for his $10 million 😀

[Mike Sixel]

16 minutes ago, Linus said:

I think this is an accurate assessment of his value. I was just thinking to myself that Yankee fans aren’t sitting around bemoaning that $10 million they are wasting. 

Steinbrenner just said their current payroll isn't sustainable, so I bet plenty of fans are bemoaning their "cheap" owners right now.....but I'm not sure how this is relevant to what the Twins need to do?

[bean5302]

3 minutes ago, FlyingFinn said:

Let's have him retire and become a coach for his $10 million 😀

What's he going to coach? How to secure multi-year deals when there are better, cheaper options on the free agent market?

[Linus]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Steinbrenner just said their current payroll isn't sustainable, so I bet plenty of fans are bemoaning their "cheap" owners right now.....but I'm not sure how this is relevant to what the Twins need to do?

It’s not. It was intended to be a humorous observation about how different the two teams payroll situation is. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Linus said:

It’s not. It was intended to be a humorous observation about how different the two teams payroll situation is. 

ah, well, then, nvm.

But it is true, somehow the Steinbrenner family is also crying about payroll......

[stringer bell]

Vázquez isn't the ideal partner for Jeffers, at least not at that salary. He's being paid as a starter and he should be the backup. I'm puzzled how his offense has fallen off since he joined the Twins. He was the DH for Puerto Rico in the WBC a couple of times and their roster was really good. Now he can't get over the Mendoza line and has terrible stats across the board.

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Vázquez isn't the ideal partner for Jeffers, at least not at that salary. He's being paid as a starter and he should be the backup. I'm puzzled how his offense has fallen off since he joined the Twins. He was the DH for Puerto Rico in the WBC a couple of times and their roster was really good. Now he can't get over the Mendoza line and has terrible stats across the board.

It's hard to believe a MLB player couldn't luck into better stats than this year. I never expected this even with very low expectations. 

[jorgenswest]

Tonight’s win wasn’t the first he played a critical role. There are a handful of veteran catchers that haven’t hit and been critical to their team’s success. Martin Maldonado was very valuable to the Astros.

They can’t get the salary money back and I don’t think he can cheaply be replaced by someone who will be more valuable to the team.

[Mike Sixel]

13 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

Tonight’s win wasn’t the first he played a critical role. There are a handful of veteran catchers that haven’t hit and been critical to their team’s success. Martin Maldonado was very valuable to the Astros.

They can’t get the salary money back and I don’t think he can cheaply be replaced by someone who will be more valuable to the team.

He's one of the worst hitters in history this year. No amount of catcher defense can fix that. 

[tony&rodney]

Whack to blame Vazquez for making $10 million for three years when it was Falvey who made the deal. Vazquez is playing hard and doing his best. The money is irrelevant because it is a done deal. Nobody is trading for him and the Twins don't eat contracts easily. Where is the catcher to fill his spot? Farmer? Who exactly will be the Twins second catcher if Vazquez goes down? Might be a better exercise to appreciate our catchers.

The playing time is likely going to be shifted more towards Jeffers in August but catching is brutal and Jeffers cannot catch two thirds of the games until late in the year and only then if he remains relatively healthy.

I wonder why Houston was able to win playoff games with Maldonado? 

[FlyingFinn]

I joked about Vazquez earlier. He is so terrible on offense but so great on defense. He is Maldanado as @tony&rodney said. For the moment, Jeffers isn't exactly knocking the cover off the ball either.

Interesting question I haven't seen brought up - who in the world is our #3 catcher in the minors right now? Camargo has been on the IL most of the month. Can't be Chris Williams because he isn't much good defensively. Winkel I guess but he hits like Vazquez in AAA. The Twins will continue to alternate catchers for this additional reason to try keep them healthy.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, FlyingFinn said:

I joked about Vazquez earlier. He is so terrible on offense but so great on defense. He is Maldanado as @tony&rodney said. For the moment, Jeffers isn't exactly knocking the cover off the ball either.

Interesting question I haven't seen brought up - who in the world is our #3 catcher in the minors right now? Camargo has been on the IL most of the month. Can't be Chris Williams because he isn't much good defensively. Winkel I guess but he hits like Vazquez in AAA. The Twins will continue to alternate catchers for this additional reason to try keep them healthy.

Why is Vazquez catching more games?

[RpR]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why is Vazquez catching more games?

He is the better catcher.

[TwinsDr2021]

14 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

It's hard to believe a MLB player couldn't luck into better stats than this year. I never expected this even with very low expectations. 

Well they gifted him a double last night on a play that should have absolutely been an error.

[Major League Ready]

Vazquez makes me cringe when he comes up.  It would be great if Noah Cardenas takes off.  That would tee him up to take over next year.  Unfortunately, his offense has dipped with every level he goes up and he is trending downward of late..  They could eat the $10M if they had a good prospect to replace him.  I have been expecting a trade that included a catcher for a while now.  Of course, they are hard to come by.  I was also hoping they traded Polanco for Harry Ford straight up or even added a prospect.  That would have been ideal.  He won't be ready until next year but it would be light at the end of the tunnel.

[Dave The Dastardly]

21 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Vazquez makes me cringe when he comes up.  It would be great if Noah Cardenas takes off.  That would tee him up to take over next year.  Unfortunately, his offense has dipped with every level he goes up and he is trending downward of late..  They could eat the $10M if they had a good prospect to replace him.  I have been expecting a trade that included a catcher for a while now.  Of course, they are hard to come by.  I was also hoping they traded Polanco for Harry Ford straight up or even added a prospect.  That would have been ideal.  He won't be ready until next year but it would be light at the end of the tunnel.

Agree about Cardenas. Cossetti is another one to keep an eye on. But both are a couple years out.

[JD-TWINS]

16 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Lot's of talk about Vazquez bat, but I wonder how much of his value is tied into helping Jeffers improve defensively and in general, helping the pitching staff, helping to game plan on a nightly basis.  His leadership may be playing a huge role in Jeffers and staff development...

Throwing the tying run out in the 9th as well!

[JD-TWINS]

8 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why is Vazquez catching more games?

I don’t think he is catching MORE games. When have they not strictly alternated games this year? If he does catch more often than “he’s deserving” it’s so Jeffers can/could DH. Jeffers can’t catch and DH……. he also can’t play every day.

Threw out go ahead run in 9th last night. He’s been nothing but very solid on defense.

He makes $10M per year, not $15, per a couple comments. Also, he’s not going anywhere!! What happens if they let him go with some creative move (can’t dump his salary to anyone in the game - right?) & 2 weeks later Jeffers gets hurt. We have a Team ready to win with ZERO EXPERIENCE at catcher. Camargo hasn’t shown he’s really any different hitter than Vazquez in the Show. Gotta have depth and live with the positives along with the negatives.

[stringer bell]

I would hope that Rocco modifies the job sharing at catcher sometime, starting Jeffers in consecutive games behind the plate when there is a day off in between would help. Perhaps starting Jeffers in consecutive games where it is either two night games or a night game after a day game (as often occurs on Thursday-Friday).

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Well they gifted him a double last night on a play that should have absolutely been an error.

Somebody needs to “gift” Jeffers some success at the plate……..down 65 points from 15 days ago……he is struggling Big Time.

Did anyone see Vazquez throw out the tying run in the 9th inning???

[JD-TWINS]

2 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

I would hope that Rocco modifies the job sharing at catcher sometime, starting Jeffers in consecutive games behind the plate when there is a day off in between would help. Perhaps starting Jeffers in consecutive games where it is either two night games or a night game after a day game (as often occurs on Thursday-Friday).

Jeffers IS a lesser defensive catcher. Real stuff.

Jeffers has been spiraling downward at the plate. Having him catch MORE doesn’t seem to be the prudent move.

Jeffers has had a bunch of opportunity at the plate as DH (on his days off behind the plate) & he can’t play every day……,the whole basis of playing in a platoon.

[IndianaTwin]

Jeffers has played in all but six games and is third on the team in plate appearances. Realistically, catching Jeffers more wouldn't get him the lineup more. He would just DH less. Said another way, Vazquez isn't costing Jeffers at bats; he's costing at bats to someone else in the lineup as the DH.

And frankly, the "someone else" crew hasn't hit well. The DH tOPS+ is 85, meaning that they have hit 15 percent worse than the team as a whole. For context, the only position that has been weaker is 2B (at 82). Then, consider that more than one-third of the DH at bats have gone to Jeffers, and it suggests that the remaining DHs have been significantly worse than that figure. Not Vazquez-level worse, but with not nearly as large of a discrepancy as one might think. 

In fact, given the toll that catching takes, one wonders if Jeffers might actually have fewer total at bats if a bigger percentage of them came at catcher.

It will be interesting to see if there is some shift in the catching ratio, with Larnach seeming to be coming on a bit as a DH and if Lewis (hoped for) leads to more DH time for Miranda. If those guys hit well as DH, maybe there's more reason to have Jeffers catch a bit more, since his DH at bats are needed quite as much.  

Rocco plays the long game during the regular season. If part of balancing the role and giving lots of DH time to Jeffers is to keep his legs a bit fresher so he can catch a little more down the stretch, that's helpful as well. 

[LA Vikes Fan]

11 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

Tonight’s win wasn’t the first he played a critical role. There are a handful of veteran catchers that haven’t hit and been critical to their team’s success. Martin Maldonado was very valuable to the Astros.

They can’t get the salary money back and I don’t think he can cheaply be replaced by someone who will be more valuable to the team.

Gotta agree here. He's overpaid at $10M but that was the market when he was signed. That's a sunk cost so let's not get in the sunk cost fallacy by worrying about the contract. It is what it is. 

Vasquez provides real value defensively when he plays, seems to be a good mentor for Jeffers and is helping his defense, and provides leadership. I think catcher is one of the three positions on the field what defense trumps offense, with shortstop in centerfield the other two. I agree that what Vasquez brings is not worth $10 million a year, more like 3 to 5 million a year, but that's not the relevant issue. The issue is do we have someone else who's better or is there someone available who could provide more? I would argue there is not anyone in the organization at this point nor is there anyone available was going to provide better play. I think Vasquez is these worth keeping around this year and probably next year unless Camargo really breaks out. It sucks that were overpaying him but he does provide value that isn't easily replaced.  

[stringer bell]

22 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Jeffers IS a lesser defensive catcher. Real stuff.

Jeffers has been spiraling downward at the plate. Having him catch MORE doesn’t seem to be the prudent move.

Jeffers has had a bunch of opportunity at the plate as DH (on his days off behind the plate) & he can’t play every day……,the whole basis of playing in a platoon.

Overall, there is no question who the superior player is--Ryan Jeffers might be an All-Star despite his recent snag and Vázquez is putting up historically awful offensive numbers. Jeffers is an adequate/average catcher, perhaps a bit better than that IMHO. Vázquez has been very good, particularly in throwing out base stealers, as a defender. If the Twins are playing one game to make postseason, I want Ryan Jeffers catching. 

With the return of Royce Lewis on the horizon, there should be better candidates to DH than there has been up to this point, including José Miranda and Trevor Larnach. If catching 55% of the time doesn't hurt Jeffers' health, I think that is better than the current 49-51% rate. 

I'll add that I'm not delighted with Jeffers as DH. It limits hitting and running for Vázquez and running for Jeffers. If Vázquez could/can perform at the plate at something like his career norms, I have no problem with a 50-50 split in the catcher position with Jeffers getting additional DH at-bats.