The Twins Should Be Embarrassed to Be Outspent by the Royals

[nicksaviking]

Good for them with Witt, but the reason the Royals are spending so much money is because they have been terrible at developing good young players.

There wasn't a free agent they signed that I wanted on this team. Just because the Royals can't build a roster via the farm and have to sign a half dozen bottom barrel free agents doesn't mean I wan the Twins to follow suit just to spend money.

 

[MGX]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Good for them with Witt, but the reason the Royals are spending so much money is because they have been terrible at developing good young players.

There wasn't a free agent they signed that I wanted on this team. Just because the Royals can't build a roster via the farm and have to sign a half dozen bottom barrel free agents doesn't mean I wan the Twins to follow suit just to spend money.

 

I'd take Wacha or Lugo in our rotation.

[Nashvilletwin]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Good for them with Witt, but the reason the Royals are spending so much money is because they have been terrible at developing good young players.

There wasn't a free agent they signed that I wanted on this team. Just because the Royals can't build a roster via the farm and have to sign a half dozen bottom barrel free agents doesn't mean I wan the Twins to follow suit just to spend money.

 

Agree.  Besides they need the votes to approve the sales tax increase for the stadium. So sign your homegrown young star to a long extension.  It’s a great strategy that’s been proven to work - look at Mauer.  

[FilthyMogwai]

4 minutes ago, MGX said:

I'd take Wacha or Lugo in our rotation.

Over DeSclafani? Have you gone mad, sir??? 🤣

*tongue now removed from cheek*

[nicksaviking]

8 minutes ago, MGX said:

I'd take Wacha or Lugo in our rotation.

Just like with DeSclafani, I have no interest in that type of free agent pitcher. And at least with DeSclafani, I don't think the Twins have closed the door on getting an arm I actually want. Had they given out those contracts, I'd be sure the door was closed.

Looks an awful lot like the Ricky Nolasco, Phil Hughes, Kevin Correia era for the Twins; surprising paydays for a team not used to giving them out. However, while these arms may make you look more respectable through the regular season, they aren't nearly good enough to make you a contender. Those are treading water moves.

[Beast]

The coping and rationalization in this thread….

Basically, “I don’t want the team to spend money anyway.”  And “The Pohlads are better than their owner.”  “The Royals better win something first before they’re better than us.”

Newsflash, guys.  The Royals are a more successful franchise than this one over the past 3 decades.  It’s not even close.  Who gives a **** about empty division titles in the worst division in professional sports? They made back-to-back World Series, winning one within the last decade.  We haven’t won a real playoff series since 1991.  They’ve won 10x the number of playoff games we have.  I’d trade every playoff sweep ass kicking from 2001 until now for one World Series in that time frame.

The delusion of where this team sits in the MLB hierarchy is wild to me.  No Twins fan has any business looking down our nose at the Royals.

Ive said it repeatedly, and continue to do so whoever it presents itself.  This fan base suffers from collective Stockholm Syndrome.  It’s its own living organism at this point with a fully functioning immune system that will attempt to dispel and eradicate any differing opinion (like this one) like it’s a foreign entity.  It’s OK to admit the Royals have done something we haven’t done.  If you wouldn’t take that contract for Bobby Witt as a Twins fan, what are your aspirations?  Because that’s a hell of a player.

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, GKuehl said:

I'm not particularly fazed by the Royals spending money, especially because the owner is incentivized to spend to drum up community support to build a new stadium.

But if the Twins end up signing a TV deal in the range of $40 million for 2024, it's unfathomable that we didn't at least pursue someone like Jordan Montgomery or Blake Snell to be our #2 SP. Even with anroughly $15 million drop in payroll, there should have been room to sign either of those pitchers to a 1-year, $30 million or a 3-year, $75 million contract. 

Snell’s ask is 9 years at $30M….. not 1 year at $30M. He turned down 6 years at $30M from Yankees.

Montgomery’s ask is $25M for 6 years …….these statements have been published.

…………………

I’d like to try and sign Montgomery for 5 years at $26M and let him have option after 3 years. Gives him security & independence later in the deal.

Worst case, Clevinger for 2 years at $16M to stabilize the Staff.

[nicksaviking]

10 minutes ago, Beast said:

The coping and rationalization in this thread….

Basically, “I don’t want the team to spend money anyway.”  And “The Pohlads are better than their owner.”  “The Royals better win something first before they’re better than us.”

Newsflash, guys.  The Royals are a more successful franchise than this one over the past 3 decades.  It’s not even close.  Who gives a **** about empty division titles in the worst division in professional sports? They made back-to-back World Series, winning one within the last decade.  We haven’t won a real playoff series since 1991.  They’ve won 10x the number of playoff games we have.  I’d trade every playoff sweep ass kicking from 2001 until now for one World Series in that time frame.

The delusion of where this team sits in the MLB hierarchy is wild to me.  No Twins fan has any business looking down our nose at the Royals.

Ive said it repeatedly, and continue to do so whoever it presents itself.  This fan base suffers from collective Stockholm Syndrome.  It’s its own living organism at this point with a fully functioning immune system that will attempt to dispel and eradicate any differing opinion (like this one) like it’s a foreign entity.  It’s OK to admit the Royals have done something we haven’t done.  If you wouldn’t take that contract for Bobby Witt as a Twins fan, what are your aspirations?  Because that’s a hell of a player.

I doubt there's a poster on here who has said anything remotely like this that hasn't also been critical of the team. I've said these things AND have been very critical,  

Not being jealous of mid-to-low level free agents isn't some kind of brown nosing effort by any fan. You simply don't build a winning team by signing this caliber of player that blocks your higher ceiling internal options or instead of trading for players that will actually put you over the top.

And I've said I'd prefer to win a World Series by making bold moves like the Royals did last decade then suffer a few years after. But these are not bold moves. These moves look exactly like the Twins upon Terry Ryan's return. They were half measure moves made to make it look like they were trying even though everyone who puts this to any kind of scrutiny can see this Royals team still has zero shot at a championship.

[mnfireman]

3 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Worst case, Clevinger for 2 years at $16M to stabilize the Staff.

I was Waiting for your "Sign Clevinger for 2 years" comment, and, you sir, did not disappoint!!

[FilthyMogwai]

10 minutes ago, Beast said:

The coping and rationalization in this thread….

Basically, “I don’t want the team to spend money anyway.”  And “The Pohlads are better than their owner.”  “The Royals better win something first before they’re better than us.”

Newsflash, guys.  The Royals are a more successful franchise than this one over the past 3 decades.  It’s not even close.  Who gives a **** about empty division titles in the worst division in professional sports? They made back-to-back World Series, winning one within the last decade.  We haven’t won a real playoff series since 1991.  They’ve won 10x the number of playoff games we have.  I’d trade every playoff sweep ass kicking from 2001 until now for one World Series in that time frame.

The delusion of where this team sits in the MLB hierarchy is wild to me.  No Twins fan has any business looking down our nose at the Royals.

Ive said it repeatedly, and continue to do so whoever it presents itself.  This fan base suffers from collective Stockholm Syndrome.  It’s its own living organism at this point with a fully functioning immune system that will attempt to dispel and eradicate any differing opinion (like this one) like it’s a foreign entity.  It’s OK to admit the Royals have done something we haven’t done.  If you wouldn’t take that contract for Bobby Witt as a Twins fan, what are your aspirations?  Because that’s a hell of a player.

Calm down. The author was clearly referring to where these teams are right now. Not where they've been over the last arbitrary number of years. 

It is embarrassing that a pitiful last place team outspent the division winner with aspirations of post season success.

[JD-TWINS]

10 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

I was Waiting for your "Sign Clevinger for 2 years" comment, and, you sir, did not disappoint!!

Gotta ACT!…………..or it will be……….”couldn’t get anything done” because other Teams wanted too high a price in trades. He’s the best FA available if Montgomery can’t be signed - right?

[DocBauer]

I understand and appreciate the whole TV deal questions, payroll questions, surprises in the bankruptcy hearings, etc. I really do. But I'm still a little confused ownership didn't anticipate SOME kind of deal and SOME kind of money coming back in. 

I was hoping they would freeze payroll, perhaps see a slight dip due to all the unknowns. But  like everyone else, I'm not happy AT ALL with a potential 20-25M drop for a team in contention.

But embarrassed because the Royals are spending $ for the first time in...well...whenever...no. The Royals had a 2023 payroll of about $91M, $60M less than the Twins... while losing 100 games. And even with this spending spree, we're not even sure they won't match the Twins payroll when the dust settles. 

So I'm frustrated by the whole TV situation and any substantial cut. But I'm not embarrassed by the Royals going on some spending spree.

[JD-TWINS]

11 minutes ago, FilthyMogwai said:

Calm down. The author was clearly referring to where these teams are right now. Not where they've been over the last arbitrary number of years. 

It is embarrassing that a pitiful last place team outspent the division winner with aspirations of post season success.

It’s February 5th…….not in favor of trading our roster for their’s I assume? Just signed Correa for $35M per year 12 months ago……..,we’ll have to pay Lewis - Jeffers - etc. - etc., numerous pitchers,  over the next 2-5 years. Still have an opportunity to solidify the Staff before the end of Spring Training. Everyone needs to calm down.

[darin617]

What a stupid take and a waste of a read. The Dodgers out spend everyone and have only won one world series in the last 20 years and the same can be said about the Yankees.

Another thing for you about Kansas City that many don't know about. They were the original cheaters of this era and never took any heat the the Astros or Red Sox.

[Major League Ready]

39 minutes ago, Beast said:

The coping and rationalization in this thread….

Basically, “I don’t want the team to spend money anyway.”  And “The Pohlads are better than their owner.”  “The Royals better win something first before they’re better than us.”

Newsflash, guys.  The Royals are a more successful franchise than this one over the past 3 decades.  It’s not even close.  Who gives a **** about empty division titles in the worst division in professional sports? They made back-to-back World Series, winning one within the last decade.  We haven’t won a real playoff series since 1991.  They’ve won 10x the number of playoff games we have.  I’d trade every playoff sweep ass kicking from 2001 until now for one World Series in that time frame.

The delusion of where this team sits in the MLB hierarchy is wild to me.  No Twins fan has any business looking down our nose at the Royals.

Ive said it repeatedly, and continue to do so whoever it presents itself.  This fan base suffers from collective Stockholm Syndrome.  It’s its own living organism at this point with a fully functioning immune system that will attempt to dispel and eradicate any differing opinion (like this one) like it’s a foreign entity.  It’s OK to admit the Royals have done something we haven’t done.  If you wouldn’t take that contract for Bobby Witt as a Twins fan, what are your aspirations?  Because that’s a hell of a player.

They had 1 1/2 good seasons. in the past two decades.  The rest of the time, they have been among the very worst team in the league. I actually have the records for every team form 2000-2022 in a spreadsheet.  I have not entered last year's data.  The Royals literally have the worst record (.440) in the entire league over that period and exactly one 90 win season.   The Twins have the 11th best record and six 90 win seasons.  

[JD-TWINS]

28 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I doubt there's a poster on here who has said anything remotely like this that hasn't also been critical of the team. I've said these things AND have been very critical,  

Not being jealous of mid-to-low level free agents isn't some kind of brown nosing effort by any fan. You simply don't build a winning team by signing this caliber of player that blocks your higher ceiling internal options or instead of trading for players that will actually put you over the top.

And I've said I'd prefer to win a World Series by making bold moves like the Royals did last decade then suffer a few years after. But these are not bold moves. These moves look exactly like the Twins upon Terry Ryan's return. They were half measure moves made to make it look like they were trying even though everyone who puts this to any kind of scrutiny can see this Royals team still has zero shot at a championship.

They got better and more stable with Lugo - Wacha - Smith on their staff………they have the kid they got from Texas, he’s apparently top of rotation talent. Pitching is the start - Bobby Witt can’t score 4 runs a game but they’re better.

Agree!!…………Hunter Renfroe & Adam Frazier aren’t going to propel them to the Division title. 

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

The Royals don’t have a Hockey team and NBA team to siphon even more money away from their Baseball team. While I think they had the money to resign Gray if you take out Santana and Desclarini especially.  That is annoying but good for the Royals for spending some cash.  They are still behind the Twins but much better than they were. I wonder if the Taylor Swift affect is helping them too financially.

If you multiply income by people Minneapolis - St. Paul is TWICE the size of Kansas City. There's plenty of money to go around even though there is competition from other sports. If the Twins can't outdraw the Timberwolves, who were a perennial doormat franchise before this season, that's their fault.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

41 minutes ago, Beast said:

The coping and rationalization in this thread….

Basically, “I don’t want the team to spend money anyway.”  And “The Pohlads are better than their owner.”  “The Royals better win something first before they’re better than us.”

Newsflash, guys.  The Royals are a more successful franchise than this one over the past 3 decades.  It’s not even close.  Who gives a **** about empty division titles in the worst division in professional sports? They made back-to-back World Series, winning one within the last decade.  We haven’t won a real playoff series since 1991.  They’ve won 10x the number of playoff games we have.  I’d trade every playoff sweep ass kicking from 2001 until now for one World Series in that time frame.

The delusion of where this team sits in the MLB hierarchy is wild to me.  No Twins fan has any business looking down our nose at the Royals.

Ive said it repeatedly, and continue to do so whoever it presents itself.  This fan base suffers from collective Stockholm Syndrome.  It’s its own living organism at this point with a fully functioning immune system that will attempt to dispel and eradicate any differing opinion (like this one) like it’s a foreign entity.  It’s OK to admit the Royals have done something we haven’t done.  If you wouldn’t take that contract for Bobby Witt as a Twins fan, what are your aspirations?  Because that’s a hell of a player.

All hail the best Twins fan! Everyone must bow down!!

[Jocko87]

Embarrassed by a team that finished 31 games behind our boys last year?  They have a lot of ground to make up, they better spend!

Seriously, this is our response to the Bobby Witt news?  There are many ways that conversation could go, but this is certainly a choice.

And that's what it is, a choice.  An editorial decision to harp on the same old tropes. Ermahgod "self imposed" payroll limitations. What if the majority of the fan base isn't as riled up as the media about a few million bucks here and there?  What if the majority of the fan base enjoys having a really good winning team regardless of the payroll?  What if the majority of the fan base recognizes that the team has shelled out more money and played in deeper waters than ever before?

What if the media are actually the baddies?  I'd like to see Randballstu write that article.  It's easy to lampoon Earl in Anoka (he does deserve it, after all) but what if Earl is the way he is because of who is telling him what to be mad at?  We should be extremely excited for this year and beyond but some would have us believe it's worse than 2011 because they haven't manifested another ace out of the blue.  F it, seasons over Jerry, seasons over.

I understand this is Minnesota we are talking about but we are allowed to have nice things.  We have a nice thing, enjoy it. 

I hope I didn't offend, my "self-imposed" restraint is working overtime right now.

[Doctor Gast]

The Twins had a lot fewer needs than the Royals. We just needed a postseason SP which was impossible to get via FA. So a trade was the only option that would not cost $. That put aside I'm still embarrassed because all the actions done have not advanced us any closer to where we need to be.

[sweetmusicviola16]

31 minutes ago, Beast said:

The coping and rationalization in this thread….

Basically, “I don’t want the team to spend money anyway.”  And “The Pohlads are better than their owner.”  “The Royals better win something first before they’re better than us.”

Newsflash, guys.  The Royals are a more successful franchise than this one over the past 3 decades.  It’s not even close.  Who gives a **** about empty division titles in the worst division in professional sports? They made back-to-back World Series, winning one within the last decade.  We haven’t won a real playoff series since 1991.  They’ve won 10x the number of playoff games we have.  I’d trade every playoff sweep ass kicking from 2001 until now for one World Series in that time frame.

The delusion of where this team sits in the MLB hierarchy is wild to me.  No Twins fan has any business looking down our nose at the Royals.

Ive said it repeatedly, and continue to do so whoever it presents itself.  This fan base suffers from collective Stockholm Syndrome.  It’s its own living organism at this point with a fully functioning immune system that will attempt to dispel and eradicate any differing opinion (like this one) like it’s a foreign entity.  It’s OK to admit the Royals have done something we haven’t done.  If you wouldn’t take that contract for Bobby Witt as a Twins fan, what are your aspirations?  Because that’s a hell of a player.

Tbh beast we are seeing the same **** show that we have seen for the past 20-30 years. WE actually do have a competitive team again. It went to the PO's and even won a series and some games. Great. Lets build on it. But nope. We're going to cut payroll. Lets sign Josh Staumont, Jay Jackson and Carlos Santana and trade for DeSclafani and pretend we improved the team. This mirrors Terry Ryan. Good teams in the 2000's and he signs Livan Hernandez and other bottom dwelling FA's. In 2003 JimThome was an FA. He would have come here, instead the Phils paid him the money and he didn't. He was available in trade again after 2005. Does Ryan go out and bolster a good team with that last needed piece to make it great? Nope, he lets CWS acquire him. We're seeing the same thing again now where the team thumps its chest because they are good when a bold move or two would make it great. To this day I believe the lack of the dominant Jim Thome being brought on board was the difference between us being good and winning a WS.

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Just like with DeSclafani, I have no interest in that type of free agent pitcher. And at least with DeSclafani, I don't think the Twins have closed the door on getting an arm I actually want. Had they given out those contracts, I'd be sure the door was closed.

Looks an awful lot like the Ricky Nolasco, Phil Hughes, Kevin Correia era for the Twins; surprising paydays for a team not used to giving them out. However, while these arms may make you look more respectable through the regular season, they aren't nearly good enough to make you a contender. Those are treading water moves.

1. Neither Wacha nor Lugo are Nolasco or Correia level pitchers. Nor are they Desclafani level, for that matter.

2. However, The Twins not spending money at an appropriate level is the issue, not who KC spent on. There's $30-$40m, easy, that can and should have been added to the Twins payroll.  You don't have to limit yourself to Carlos Santana and having San Fran pay for Desclafani. Sign some actual help.

3. I'm not embarrassed, I'm disappointed and a little PO'd. 

 

[mnfireman]

I think the Will Smith signing is the bigger news, HE has been in the BP for the last 3 WS champions....😜

[Patzky]

1 hour ago, Whitey333 said:

It is interesting.  I hope the Royals do well this year.  The Twins could use good competition.

A long term contract talent like Witt will adjust the perception of the Royals, like a long term commitment to Lewis would for the Twins. Personally I hate the Sox and am tired of Cleveland. I'd love to see KC or Detroit field competitive squads.

[JD-TWINS]

2 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Regardless of the Royals actions, the Twins and Twins Fandom should all be embarrassed by this offseason.  The fact that the Royals, who were/are basically in the same limbo as the Twins and it did not stop them from making moves basically makes Ownership look selfish and short-sighted.  Very, very sad...

The Royals spent $92.5M in ‘23 & had Zack Grienke in their rotation last year…..that’s embarrassing. They have a great young guy that they need to push into Stardom locally for fan interest, they invested, and they brought in $45M in OK Free Agents to help. They’ve elevated to $138.5M & with some fiscal uncertainty the Twins have gone from $154M back to $124M as of today…………one signing or trade over next 5 weeks & our roster is even more superior. I don’t think spending randomly when you have a solid roster makes sense. Doubt that the FO is on vacation after the Santana signing.

[Fatbat]

1 hour ago, Eris said:

Is Byron Buxton’s $9.5 million in incentives included in the Twins payroll figures. 

Not yet but it appears that they expect to pay it out to him since they haven’t wasted that amount on resigning Gallo. 

[Major League Ready]

32 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

The Royals spent $92.5M in ‘23 & had Zack Grienke in their rotation last year…..that’s embarrassing. They have a great young guy that they need to push into Stardom locally for fan interest, they invested, and they brought in $45M in OK Free Agents to help. They’ve elevated to $138.5M & with some fiscal uncertainty the Twins have gone from $154M back to $124M as of today…………one signing or trade over next 5 weeks & our roster is even more superior. I don’t think spending randomly when you have a solid roster makes sense. Doubt that the FO is on vacation after the Santana signing.

What is the source of the $138M figure.  Spotrac estimates $108M with $10M in dead money to Dozier.  Fangraphs (last segment that gives totals below) estimates $114.8M.  They have a total of $100M which includes the dead money to Dozier plus prearb salaries so can someone explain where is this $138M coming from?

Description	2024	2025	2026	2027	2028	2029	2030
$ due for potential buyout of Adam Frazier		$2,500,000
$ due for buyout of Hunter Dozier		$1,000,000
$ due for potential buyout of Chris Stratton		$500,000
$ due for potential buyout of Salvador Perez			$2,000,000
Estimated Payroll	$114,784,571	$48,707,071	$15,707,071	$19,707,071	$30,707,071	$35,707,071	$35,707,071

[gil4]

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

 While I think they had the money to resign Gray if you take out Santana and Desclarini especially

Not even close - Santana is $5.5M, DeSclafani is $4M ($12M is offset by the $6M the Giants sent to the Mariners, who passed it along to the Twins, plus the additional $2M the Mariners kicked in.) Gray got $25M/yr for three years.  

[JD-TWINS]

13 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

What is the source of the $138M figure.  Spotrac estimates $108M with $10M in dead money to Dozier.  Fangraphs (below) estimates $114.8M.  They have a total of $100M which includes the dead money to Dozier plus prearb salaries so can someone explain where is this $138M coming from?

Description	2024	2025	2026	2027	2028	2029	2030
$ due for potential buyout of Adam Frazier		$2,500,000
$ due for buyout of Hunter Dozier		$1,000,000
$ due for potential buyout of Chris Stratton		$500,000
$ due for potential buyout of Salvador Perez			$2,000,000
Estimated Payroll	$114,784,571	$48,707,071	$15,707,071	$19,707,071	$30,707,071	$35,707,071	$35,707,071

$138M source??? Cody says it in paragraph 4 above & Jon Becker says it in a tweet above………just assuming that between them they are at least close. Is Witt getting $$ this year that may not be in your total yet?

[JD-TWINS]

15 minutes ago, gil4 said:

Not even close - Santana is $5.5M, DeSclafani is $4M ($12M is offset by the $6M the Giants sent to the Mariners, who passed it along to the Twins, plus the additional $2M the Mariners kicked in.) Gray got $25M/yr for three years.  

Twins moved $10.5M with Polanco deal - & took on $18.25M between ($1M/$12M/$5.25M) Topa/DeSclafani/Santana …….received $8M from Seattle……….essentially a draw and we have 3 players v. Polanco. …….correct?