Astros 2, Twins 1: Offense Absent Again, Houston Rallies Late to Sweep Series

[tony&rodney]

52 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Ownership has no desire to put together a championship team ...

 

Personally have no interest in defending ownership but FWIW the POBO/GM put together the team. The Pohlads likely never heard of some of the players before they were a part of the organization. The authorized the highest budget in the AL Central and deferred to their hires. Is that their error? Perhaps.

[tony&rodney]

42 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Here's something to watch , desclafini has been sign to a major league deal with Arizona  , he has been rehabbing with Arizona minor league clubs , so he must be ready for the show  ...

Watched DeScla pitch against the Saints last week. He has nothing. If he gets someone out it is more luck than talent. He understands the game and will allow poor batters to get themselves out but get toasted by competent hitters.

[Blyleven2011]

9 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Personally have no interest in defending ownership but FWIW the POBO/GM put together the team. The Pohlads likely never heard of some of the players before they were a part of the organization. The authorized the highest budget in the AL Central and deferred to their hires. Is that their error? Perhaps.

If the pohlads have never heard of some of these players , it's because they don't like the game , they should be more involved with teams and team players if you own a baseball club ...

My point should have been it's a team effort from ownership down to FO,  coaches and players 

[Western SD Fan]

I'll be the one to defend the Vasquez at bat.  It seems like the running strategy is for the away team to score more than one run in Manfred ball in an effort to try to end the game in that inning and so the home team doesn't get to tie it so easily and we continue with the game.  Also, I've never seen Jeffers or Correa (the next two batters) ever change their batting approach to try to drive in the run even if the runner was on third base.  In fact, I believe the only player that actually takes a separate approach at the plate is our friendly punching bag Ty France.  Jeffers struck out and Correa hit a weak pop up.  I have A LOT of decisions that I don't agree with Rocco within this game, but the Vasquez at bat was not one of them.

[Parfigliano]

3 hours ago, jkcarew said:

Today would have been a good day for Buxton to gut it out.

SWR with a step in the right direction. Nice to see Lee showing some pop from the right side recently.

Otherwise, same old, same old. The back end of the bullpen is far from dominant or even really good.  I’d call it extremely ordinary.

The pitching is above average.  The bats are pathetic.  The defense is below average.  

[Parfigliano]

3 hours ago, Mark G said:

Well, you know the old saying, "it's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it".  So I will be the one.

5 innings of shutout ball, 1 hit, and only 53 pitches.  Then Rocco pulls the plug again, and the parade of RP's start.  As I have said until you all are tired of reading it, all it takes is one in the bunch to not be on that day and........🤕

SWR didn't just deserve a better fate, he deserved the chance to decide his own fate.  I just can't stand this anymore.......🤢

Someone shut me up, please.......😷

Someone fire Rocco.

[Parfigliano]

2 hours ago, purplesoldier4u said:

Back down to a game over .500. The Twins can be at bad teams, but struggle against "good" teams - a movie we've all seen before. Tough times result in making tough decisions, and Bride is not an MLB player. In addition, I'm not sure that Vazquez's defense out weighs his frequent offensive futility. 

We're now halfway between Memorial Day and Labor Day, the time where teams show what they are. Yes, the starting rotation is facing some hurdles, but the offense is not carrying their collective weight and with few options available, it looks like an 85 win season. Welcome back to mediocrity.

They will not win 76

[Hubie29]

45 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Watched DeScla pitch against the Saints last week. He has nothing. If he gets someone out it is more luck than talent. He understands the game and will allow poor batters to get themselves out but get toasted by competent hitters.

He went 2.1 innings today against San Diego.  3 hits, 2ER, 0 walks, 2 K's

[Aerodeliria]

4 hours ago, CRF said:

Very catchable ball that ended the game. We'd probably blow it at some point anyway, but Castro should have caught that one. 

Bad defense loses close games....

[jdr]

4 hours ago, Mark G said:

Well, you know the old saying, "it's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it".  So I will be the one.

5 innings of shutout ball, 1 hit, and only 53 pitches.  Then Rocco pulls the plug again, and the parade of RP's start.  As I have said until you all are tired of reading it, all it takes is one in the bunch to not be on that day and........🤕

SWR didn't just deserve a better fate, he deserved the chance to decide his own fate.  I just can't stand this anymore.......🤢

Someone shut me up, please.......😷

I agree but, this to create a narrative around a pitcher. Why is he constantly being pulled in winning situations with pitch counts between 50 - 70?

[tony&rodney]

50 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

He went 2.1 innings today against San Diego.  3 hits, 2ER, 0 walks, 2 K's

I actually admire these guys, like DeSclafani, who work very hard and keep going for another shot because they love the game. I tried to pitch two years with a torn rotator cuff before surgery myself because I loved playing, even at the hack level.

I just think there are better options for the Twins. Arizona is hurting for pitching. The Diamondbacks were a team I wanted to trade with last winter. Still think it is possible but it would be very difficult. 

[Rod Carews Birthday]

4 hours ago, Mark G said:

Well, you know the old saying, "it's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it".  So I will be the one.

5 innings of shutout ball, 1 hit, and only 53 pitches.  Then Rocco pulls the plug again, and the parade of RP's start.  As I have said until you all are tired of reading it, all it takes is one in the bunch to not be on that day and........🤕

SWR didn't just deserve a better fate, he deserved the chance to decide his own fate.  I just can't stand this anymore.......🤢

Someone shut me up, please.......😷

He did deserve a better fate, but him coming out of the game didn't lose it.  That's on the offense, which was "offensive".  I don't love Duran giving up the game tying run, nor Sands giving up the game winner, but they get to do that, and if the offense were even functional, it wouldn't be an issue.  

C'mon boys!  We've gotta get some runs!

[gmwannabe]

I know how i would get C4 to waive his no trade clause. Start Lee at short every game until the trade deadline and let him sit and rot on the bench and I guarantee he'll demand a trade.

[USAFChief]

5 hours ago, Mark G said:

Well, you know the old saying, "it's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it".  So I will be the one.

5 innings of shutout ball, 1 hit, and only 53 pitches.  Then Rocco pulls the plug again, and the parade of RP's start.  As I have said until you all are tired of reading it, all it takes is one in the bunch to not be on that day and........🤕

SWR didn't just deserve a better fate, he deserved the chance to decide his own fate.  I just can't stand this anymore.......🤢

Someone shut me up, please.......😷

I saw the downvote of this post and knew immediately who it was, before I looked.

Some folks just refuse to look the truth in the face.

[OvertheHill]

<rant on>

As an avid former Townball/Senior League baseball player and now MLB paying fan, it’s sickening to me to see a team culture that has apparently normalized guys loafing on the field. Occasionally on this board there’s a suggestion that guys don’t give max effort on ground balls because of the increased risk of injury. Maybe, but I ain’t paying to watch that. I don’t know what happened to nutrition, strength training and flexibility routines, but it seems like we’re supposed to be holding our breath every time one of our big name players tries to beat out a grounder. And for the most part we’ve abandoned the finer points of base running and built a roster of station to station plodders. I believe that’s a problem at the FO, Manager, and roster level. Not conducive to a great fan experience. 

<rant off>

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, jdr said:

I agree but, this to create a narrative around a pitcher. Why is he constantly being pulled in winning situations with pitch counts between 50 - 70?

Because Rocco is not good at his job.  Never has been.

[knothole61]

We have just experienced two days of excellent pitching, (except for the All-Star closer-yes) especially in that crazy Houston bandbox; and two losses that could easily have been wins with even a modicum more of offense...just a modicum! 

It's hard to blame Rocco when the batters are so lame. But I do damn his intractability regarding his frequent "cautionary rest days." When he sits Buxton, for example, he has no intention of allowing him to come in late in a game to pinch run or hit with the game on the line. He just won't do it! Today, Buxton should have hit in the 10th...he's having a great season and he's a real threat at bat right now. Rocco does some things well, but his utter inability to throw caution to the wind (even just a bit) drives me crazy. 

Hey SWR, great job today! 

[D.C Twins]

I'd like to give my nuanced analysis..... woof (clears throat).... WOOF!

[D.C Twins]

7 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

Positives:

SWR bounce back 

Lee 15 game hit streak

Lou Varland 2 IP

times by poor managing, poor fielding, and poor hitting = one big loss

[D.C Twins]

6 hours ago, jkcarew said:

I mean he has, and needs to be, held to a higher standard than any other free agent simply based on price. So, not great. But, still no.

bWAR since he joined the club: 10.6

Buxton over the same period: 10.3

When the club has managed to make the postseason over that period..

Correa: 9 hits, 4 RBI, and about a 1.000 OPS.

Buxton: 1 plate appearance (career postseason OPS is 286)

Buxton = 15 million a year; Correa = 30+ million a year.

I'll take Buck on the better bWAR over the next 3 years. 

Correa has been a disaster at the plate for almost a year now

[h2oface]

7 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

0 for 13 RISP, 8 LOB in the 2 walkoff losses. 

You are kind. 0-15 . All 3 ABs in the 10th.

[karcherd]

I am beyond frustrated with this team and this game encapsulated everything that this organization is doing to not create a winning team.

They don't develop starting pitching well, SWR, pull him after 53 pitches and one hit because they won't let him face the order a third time.  They are doing the same thing in the minors, they think they are going to change the pitching model for baseball.  How can pitchers be expected to go more than 4 or 5 innings up here if they are not doing it in the minors.

The AB by Vasquez called for a bunt, but no they think he will get lucky again against Hader and hit a HR again.  Play situational baseball, something this team does not do well at all.

They want all players to be utility players.  It is great Castro can play multiple positions but he doesn't play them all well and some of that is not getting reps at the positions.  The ball in the 10th was catchable and a player with more reps in the OF probably catches it.  He also threw to the wrong base in the 9th inning that did not hurt the team.  But this is not the first he has made these type of mistakes.  He makes up for some of his mistakes with his athleticism but let's stop treating players like a chessboard.

The AB by Altuve where he got his bat on the ball in the 9th inning vs.  Castro and Correa looking at called third strikes.  How often does this happen because they want their pitch to drive instead of just getting the bat on the ball.  This is a team wide problem.

This all starts with the FO and the philosophy they have implemented and it is creating a .500 team over the past 8 years.  But Rocco at some point has to say in this moment this move will give the team a better chance to win even if it does not fit in with the organizational philosophy.  

When they win, it is usually against lesser teams that they are able to outplay their mistakes.  And once in a while Rocco will go against his spreadsheet but never with any consistency.

This organization needs to be blown up and figure out what they have in the young players by letting them play.  Then fill holes where needed and not with one year stopgaps.

[JD-TWINS]

15 hours ago, Mark G said:

Well, you know the old saying, "it's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it".  So I will be the one.

5 innings of shutout ball, 1 hit, and only 53 pitches.  Then Rocco pulls the plug again, and the parade of RP's start.  As I have said until you all are tired of reading it, all it takes is one in the bunch to not be on that day and........🤕

SWR didn't just deserve a better fate, he deserved the chance to decide his own fate.  I just can't stand this anymore.......🤢

Someone shut me up, please.......😷

At some point in a tight game the Closer has to end the game……..walking the lead-off hitter on 4 pitches has nothing to do with SWR getting taken out (whenever), nor the Manager.

Period.

Score some runs or pitch perfectly………SWR leaving the game had Zero to do with the outcome!

[tony&rodney]

Sad recognition of a Carlos Correa shortcoming. C4 has diminished range this season. I absolutely love what a steady player Correa is at shortstop. Balls hit to him are routinely gobbled up and his throws to first base are textbook perfect on nearly every occasion. Two plays yesterday displayed the cracks in his play though. A grounder up the middle that eluded him and a slow roller that he had to come in on furiously. A couple of years ago at full health Correa makes both plays. Correa and Buxton are both diminished in range from their best days but remain our best defensive players by far. This not is not a criticism but merely a reality. 

[JD-TWINS]

8 hours ago, knothole61 said:

We have just experienced two days of excellent pitching, (except for the All-Star closer-yes) especially in that crazy Houston bandbox; and two losses that could easily have been wins with even a modicum more of offense...just a modicum! 

It's hard to blame Rocco when the batters are so lame. But I do damn his intractability regarding his frequent "cautionary rest days." When he sits Buxton, for example, he has no intention of allowing him to come in late in a game to pinch run or hit with the game on the line. He just won't do it! Today, Buxton should have hit in the 10th...he's having a great season and he's a real threat at bat right now. Rocco does some things well, but his utter inability to throw caution to the wind (even just a bit) drives me crazy. 

Hey SWR, great job today! 

Was Buxton pulled from a game in Houston after getting hit on the elbow or not?

I’m confused.

[chpettit19]

Glad to see that it's still bad bullpen management that costs the Twins games when the offense scores 1 run in 10 innings. Oh, and it was the closer that would've been used anyways that blew that whopping 1 run lead. I know, I know, the guy who nobody had a problem with getting demoted a couple weeks ago and had an ERA touching 6 coming into the game was definitely going to throw a complete game shutout if Rocco wasn't such a fool so Duran wasn't actually going to be used.

Never change TD.

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, karcherd said:

I am beyond frustrated with this team and this game encapsulated everything that this organization is doing to not create a winning team.

They don't develop starting pitching well, SWR, pull him after 53 pitches and one hit because they won't let him face the order a third time.  They are doing the same thing in the minors, they think they are going to change the pitching model for baseball.  How can pitchers be expected to go more than 4 or 5 innings up here if they are not doing it in the minors.

The AB by Vasquez called for a bunt, but no they think he will get lucky again against Hader and hit a HR again.  Play situational baseball, something this team does not do well at all.

They want all players to be utility players.  It is great Castro can play multiple positions but he doesn't play them all well and some of that is not getting reps at the positions.  The ball in the 10th was catchable and a player with more reps in the OF probably catches it.  He also threw to the wrong base in the 9th inning that did not hurt the team.  But this is not the first he has made these type of mistakes.  He makes up for some of his mistakes with his athleticism but let's stop treating players like a chessboard.

The AB by Altuve where he got his bat on the ball in the 9th inning vs.  Castro and Correa looking at called third strikes.  How often does this happen because they want their pitch to drive instead of just getting the bat on the ball.  This is a team wide problem.

This all starts with the FO and the philosophy they have implemented and it is creating a .500 team over the past 8 years.  But Rocco at some point has to say in this moment this move will give the team a better chance to win even if it does not fit in with the organizational philosophy.  

When they win, it is usually against lesser teams that they are able to outplay their mistakes.  And once in a while Rocco will go against his spreadsheet but never with any consistency.

This organization needs to be blown up and figure out what they have in the young players by letting them play.  Then fill holes where needed and not with one year stopgaps.

Throwing to the right base and the knowledge and capability to do it properly is developed when a kid is 10 - 12 - 16 - 20 …….. certainly shouldn’t be a question mark for someone in their late 20’s making $7M per year in the Show?

The left fielder knows when a 2B should cover the bag on a steal - where they should throw the ball - etc. If fans know where the proper play should be made the player surely knows….. definitely shouldn’t know.

If you & I are in our Lazyboy and, I assume, are both screaming at our TV’s because we cannot believe where Castro threw the ball …… that’s 110% on the knucklehead player!!! The Manager/coaching staff can’t hold the player’s hands on every play. I guarantee that Brooks Lee - Vazquez - France - Duran were all wondering what the hell Castro was doing.

Responsibility to catch the ball and to throw to the right base is on the player. There’s no outfield practice that makes the catch of a ball 7ft in the air at the fence at the end of a sprint any easier…….he makes the play or not. A regular left fielder may have played it better but is that Larnach?……Bader can’t play all 3 OF spots if Buxton is hurt.

[chpettit19]

11 hours ago, jdr said:

I agree but, this to create a narrative around a pitcher. Why is he constantly being pulled in winning situations with pitch counts between 50 - 70?

 

9 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

Because Rocco is not good at his job.  Never has been.

I mean, it's actually impossible to answer the question. Because it's based on a false statement. SWR is not "constantly being pulled in winning situations with pitch counts between 50-70." He's constantly being pulled with pitch counts between 80-100. He's pulled in the 5th a lot because he's incredibly inefficient with his pitches because he can't put hitters away. He's averaging over 17 pitches an inning on the year. 

Were you guys super upset when they demoted him? Didn't think he deserved that? His ERA touching 6 coming into the game yesterday wasn't a concern to you? Is it possible that he's pulled early because he simply isn't that good of a major league pitcher?

The only other game this year he's been pulled with fewer than 70 pitches thrown as presented in this question was on 5/7 against Baltimore. The Twins were up 3-1 going into the 5th. SWR got 2 outs to start the inning before giving up a double and back to back singles to make it a 1 run game with the tying run on 3rd and the go ahead run on first and Cedric Mullins coming up. Rocco brought in Coulombe who still had a 0.00 ERA at that point to face the lefty and stop the implosion before Baltimore took the lead. He struck him out.

The Twins won that game, by the way. In case that matters to you. Baltimore didn't score another run the rest of the game. And those are the only 2 games SWR has been pulled in the situation described in the question.

And if you're thinking of arguing that Rocco's been doing it to him his whole career, SWR had 3 of 28 starts last year that fit this statement. Was 0 for 0 the year before (although he did throw 97 pitches in his one 4.2 inning appearance that year). And 0 for 1 the year before that. So, he's 5 for 38 on his career. I'd say that's far from "constantly" being pulled with 50-70 pitches thrown.

[Hubie29]

10 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I saw the downvote of this post and knew immediately who it was, before I looked.

Some folks just refuse to look the truth in the face.

I have been thinking the same thing as you Chief. Usually a down vote that has me shaking my head because it should be a thumbs up or at worst no reaction. And more often than not no explanation for the thumbs down which even makes it more confusing. 

[Vanimal46]

35 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Glad to see that it's still bad bullpen management that costs the Twins games when the offense scores 1 run in 10 innings. Oh, and it was the closer that would've been used anyways that blew that whopping 1 run lead. I know, I know, the guy who nobody had a problem with getting demoted a couple weeks ago and had an ERA touching 6 coming into the game was definitely going to throw a complete game shutout if Rocco wasn't such a fool so Duran wasn't actually going to be used.

Never change TD.

I had no problem doing the 5 and fly move with SWR. He was unraveling in the bottom of the 5th and luckily got out of the jam. Runs were an absolute premium yesterday and our bullpen minus Jax was available to pitch.