Astros 2, Twins 1: Offense Absent Again, Houston Rallies Late to Sweep Series

[LambchoP]

Another pathetic performance by the lineup but pitching wise, why the hell did Rocco pull SWR after five innings and only 53 pitches? The dude had only given up one hit?!

[stringer bell]

Okay, I am the Terry Felton of going to Twins games in opponent’s parks—now 0-7. I couldn’t get wi-fi at Daikin so didn’t post during the game.

Plenty of blame to go around. Hitting was poor, defensive execution lacking. Castro certainly could have made the catch on the final play, but that’s not easy with the odd wall. I was more upset at his throw in the ninth inning, allowing Altuve to advance.

Lee and Castro did the lion’s share of hitting, but Willi negated his hitting by being caught off second base on a comebacker and then his misadventures in the ninth and tenth.

Walking the lead off guy in a tie or one-run game is the recipe for disaster and it happened in both close games. I had a pretty good view of pitches and it didn’t appear like Laz was the problem.

I thought Rocco would allow Sim the sixth since his pitch count was so low, but he had the horses to hold the lead and win the game. Didn’t work out.

As for bunting in extra innings, I don’t think road teams do it much because the road team really needs multiple runs to be in good shape in extras. Hard to execute with a power pitcher on the mound.

IMHO get ‘em over, get ‘em in is really much harder to do than every team’s fan base believes, especially when you have slow base runners. 

Jonah Bride is a waste of a roster spot. I’d give McCusker or Gasper another chance in Lewis’ absence. Maybe he can’t handle increased workload, but Coulombe should be used more in high leverage spots like yesterday and Saturday. Jeffers has been disappointing lately and Vázquez is back below the Mendoza line.

Team is struggling right now, the veterans need to step up. Correa is solid in the field, but a couple of key hits would fit the leader profile and paycheck. Both Cleveland and KC have hit the skids at the same time as the Twins, but wild card chances have dropped.

Lee has looked solid or more than that. I guess right now he should be hitting in the top/middle of the order. 

[AKTwinsFan]

Every time we get a real quality start out of our pitchers the offense sputters and we lose. We had 4x the hits but only tied at end of regulation. Sad. Time to fire Baldelli already. 

[David Maro]

The team that is only interested in hitting homeruns so they can wear a dumb helmet playing in a stadium that is a band box. The Astros know they have the advantage at home with the short pouch that a team like the Twins will swing out of their cleats.

[Mark G]

I don't know, I think I would beg to differ.  First, I don't think SWR was struggling as much as you make out.  I was the one who started the thread about being pulled after 5 innings, one hit, 53 pitches; I still believe he was having a great game and we should have ridden that horse a little longer before starting a long line of RP's because, as I said earlier, all it takes is one of them to not be on that day.  You can only run out 3-5 RP's every game for so long before one (or more) of them gives it up.  As for everyone in the pen being available except Jax, Sands hadn't pitched in 2 days, Varland and Stewart in 3, and Coulombe in 1.  Duran had thrown 20 pitches the day before, most of them pretty stressful and he didn't get the job done.  Even at the time I was hoping he would not be used; this isn't Monday morning QBing,  

Would it have worked out differently if SWR had gone longer?  Neither one of us can prove a negative, because he didn't, and now we will never know.  But choosing to do a bullpen game from the 6th inning on, knowing you will have to rely on every one of the guys you roll out there to be perfect, at best is no better than riding a starter who is having the best game of the year so far.  And what a lot of us are thinking is this is the MO of this team and we can't (at least I can't) figure out why.  

Absolutely, we only scored 1 run in 10 innings, and the defense let us down (again!).  But why didn't Vas bunt?  Why was Castro in that position in the first place?  Why wasn't SWR allowed to pitch his game?  And why was Duran allowed to lose the lead after going so long the day before and appearing a little off even then?  There is a difference between criticizing and critiquing.  It is a fine line, I know, but I do try the best I can to remember it.  But there are also times that they can, and should, be combined.  Is this one of those times?  I will let others decide for themselves, but I think this is one of those times.  Yes, the players have to do the playing, but Rocco really needs to reassess an awful lot of how he manages game by game, inning by inning, situation by situation, and putting the players in position to play their best.  This team will never reach the potential it may or may not have as long as Rocco is managing it.  That is my critique and my criticism.  And I hate even thinking it, much less saying it.  

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin to it.  😏

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

 

I mean, it's actually impossible to answer the question. Because it's based on a false statement. SWR is not "constantly being pulled in winning situations with pitch counts between 50-70." He's constantly being pulled with pitch counts between 80-100. He's pulled in the 5th a lot because he's incredibly inefficient with his pitches because he can't put hitters away. He's averaging over 17 pitches an inning on the year. 

Were you guys super upset when they demoted him? Didn't think he deserved that? His ERA touching 6 coming into the game yesterday wasn't a concern to you? Is it possible that he's pulled early because he simply isn't that good of a major league pitcher?

The only other game this year he's been pulled with fewer than 70 pitches thrown as presented in this question was on 5/7 against Baltimore. The Twins were up 3-1 going into the 5th. SWR got 2 outs to start the inning before giving up a double and back to back singles to make it a 1 run game with the tying run on 3rd and the go ahead run on first and Cedric Mullins coming up. Rocco brought in Coulombe who still had a 0.00 ERA at that point to face the lefty and stop the implosion before Baltimore took the lead. He struck him out.

The Twins won that game, by the way. In case that matters to you. Baltimore didn't score another run the rest of the game. And those are the only 2 games SWR has been pulled in the situation described in the question.

And if you're thinking of arguing that Rocco's been doing it to him his whole career, SWR had 3 of 28 starts last year that fit this statement. Was 0 for 0 the year before (although he did throw 97 pitches in his one 4.2 inning appearance that year). And 0 for 1 the year before that. So, he's 5 for 38 on his career. I'd say that's far from "constantly" being pulled with 50-70 pitches thrown.

Facts. People called for facts, you gave them.

[KirbyDome89]

4 hours ago, karcherd said:

The AB by Altuve where he got his bat on the ball in the 9th inning vs.  Castro and Correa looking at called third strikes.  How often does this happen because they want their pitch to drive instead of just getting the bat on the ball.  This is a team wide problem.

So you want Twins hitters to hit soft ground balls to the SS?

It bad AB from Altuve that just happened to have a good result. It's like swinging through strike 3 on a wild pitch and being rewarded with 1B. Altuve swung through ball 4 (which was a mile off the plate) on the previous pitch and then he hacked away again at another ball and tapped it softly to SS. There's absolutely no chance he intended to dribble a roller to Correa. 

[Jeff K]

18 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

Positives:

SWR bounce back 

Lee 15 game hit streak

Lou Varland 2 IP

53 pitches!  What the heck?????????

[Jeff K]

18 hours ago, jkcarew said:

I mean he has, and needs to be, held to a higher standard than any other free agent simply based on price. So, not great. But, still no.

bWAR since he joined the club: 10.6

Buxton over the same period: 10.3

When the club has managed to make the postseason over that period..

Correa: 9 hits, 4 RBI, and about a 1.000 OPS.

Buxton: 1 plate appearance (career postseason OPS is 286)

Buxton was not a free agent.  And while he is not going to the poor house, he makes much less than Correa.

[Mark G]

15 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

So you want Twins hitters to hit soft ground balls to the SS?

It bad AB from Altuve that just happened to have a good result. It's like swinging through strike 3 on a wild pitch and being rewarded with 1B. Altuve swung through ball 4 (which was a mile off the plate) on the previous pitch and then he hacked away again at another ball and tapped it softly to SS. There's absolutely no chance he intended to dribble a roller to Correa. 

No, I don't think he intended to hit a dribbler; I got the distinct impression he was simply trying to protect the runner stealing 3rd by making contact of some kind.  

Imagine that.  Aggressive base running and making contact, thereby protecting the runner.  Why didn't we think of that?  Oh. wait........we did.........and chose not to.  

Was it a bad at bat that just happened to go your way?  Or was it aggressive baseball, which sometimes goes your way just for that reason?  😏

[Vanimal46]

2 minutes ago, Mark G said:

Was it a bad at bat that just happened to go your way?

Yes

[stringer bell]

58 minutes ago, David Maro said:

The team that is only interested in hitting homeruns so they can wear a dumb helmet playing in a stadium that is a band box. The Astros know they have the advantage at home with the short pouch that a team like the Twins will swing out of their cleats.

C’mon. Every club has the silly HR celebration and in the years since setting the strikeout record, they’ve acquired more contact oriented players and let the most strikeout prone (examples—Gallo, Taylor) go, at the expense of home runs.  Repeat the generalizations and blame the manager, but base it on facts.

The Twins don’t have the club to outhomer most teams, look at the numbers. They’re trying to do a dance where they score runs with average at best power and one of the slowest teams in MLB. 

[Vanimal46]

23 minutes ago, Jeff K said:

53 pitches!  What the heck?????????

You know that SWR got rocked in his last start before this right? Focusing on the SWR decision is like being mad about a few flower pedals left in your pool while ignoring the crack in the wall that’s leaking water. 

[stringer bell]

24 minutes ago, Jeff K said:

53 pitches!  What the heck?????????

You can certainly question the manager for pulling SWR, but the closer was going to pitch the ninth whether Woods Richardson went six, seven or eight innings. The closer failed and Stewart and Varland got the ball to him with a lead. 

[karcherd]

30 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

So you want Twins hitters to hit soft ground balls to the SS?

It bad AB from Altuve that just happened to have a good result. It's like swinging through strike 3 on a wild pitch and being rewarded with 1B. Altuve swung through ball 4 (which was a mile off the plate) on the previous pitch and then he hacked away again at another ball and tapped it softly to SS. There's absolutely no chance he intended to dribble a roller to Correa. 

You missed my point, Altuve was looking to put the ball in play where you have an opportunity for something good to happen.  Castro and Correa were looking to drive a pitch and ended up looking at strike 3.  Change the approach and put the ball in play and give yourself an opportunity.

[Mark G]

29 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Yes

 Or was it aggressive baseball, which sometimes goes your way just for that reason?  😏

Also yes.  

[h2oface]

16 hours ago, Western SD Fan said:

I have A LOT of decisions that I don't agree with Rocco within this game, but the Vasquez at bat was not one of them.

Because Vazquez is sure to have a better chance getting a hit or putting the ball in play???????

[KirbyDome89]

28 minutes ago, karcherd said:

You missed my point, Altuve was looking to put the ball in play where you have an opportunity for something good to happen.  Castro and Correa were looking to drive a pitch and ended up looking at strike 3.  Change the approach and put the ball in play and give yourself an opportunity.

So they were all looking to put the ball in play right? I understand your point; I disagree that the process you're advocating for will yield solid results. Poor contact isn't a reliable way to score runs or advance runners. 

[stringer bell]

4 minutes ago, Mark G said:

 Or was it aggressive baseball, which sometimes goes your way just for that reason?  😏

Also yes.  

The Twins don’t have the personnel to go hyper-aggressive on the base paths. They need to be selectively aggressive and take advantage of other team’s shortcomings.

Buxton is the only player whose success percentage is high enough to steal in a close-and-late situation. Anyone else that would attempt would have to choose the right pitch and situation. Most of the Twins’ relievers don’t hold runners that well (Jax might be an exception) and running on Durán and Stewart is pretty easy.

I’ve been calling for more team speed for a long time. It seems they have it in the lower minors, but not where they can get help now. 

[h2oface]

3 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

At some point in a tight game the Closer has to end the game……..walking the lead-off hitter on 4 pitches has nothing to do with SWR getting taken out (whenever), nor the Manager.

Period.

Score some runs or pitch perfectly………SWR leaving the game had Zero to do with the outcome!

This is true. Pulling SWR early with only 53 pitches was poor managing. This is also true. Walking the lead off hitter, the one that scored in the ninth definitley affected the outcome. Our stud failed to do his job 2 nights in a row. This is also true. Correa was pathetic at the plate with the pressure on in Houton all series. Also true. 

[KirbyDome89]

39 minutes ago, Mark G said:

No, I don't think he intended to hit a dribbler; I got the distinct impression he was simply trying to protect the runner stealing 3rd by making contact of some kind.  

Imagine that.  Aggressive base running and making contact, thereby protecting the runner.  Why didn't we think of that?  Oh. wait........we did.........and chose not to.  

Was it a bad at bat that just happened to go your way?  Or was it aggressive baseball, which sometimes goes your way just for that reason?  😏

What was the wild cut on the previous pitch when Pena wasn't running? Extra protection?

Yes, it was a bad AB with a positive result. Altuve swung at ball 4 and ball 5. He put ball 5 into play and gave the Twins a chance to record an out. I can't say for certain that Pena swipes 3B safely, but on the broadcast it sounded like he got a good jump, he runs well, and the Twins don't defend the bases so do with that what you will. 

[Doctor Gast]

Why have Jeffers at lead-off? Castro & Lee are hot! Why have a bunch of slumping players in between them? Let's put our hot players on top & together so we can string some more runs together & win more games.

[stringer bell]

1 minute ago, h2oface said:

This is true. Pulling SWR early with only 53 pitches was poor managing. 

Hindsight says that his call to take SWR out couldn’t have worked out much better. The setup guys got the game to Durán with a lead and only three hitters above the minimum. Maybe it effects Woods Richardson’s psyche (I doubt it) and maybe it leaves the BP shorter for the next game (it does), but for winning the game on Sunday it was the right call and could not have worked out better.

[h2oface]

24 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

So they were all looking to put the ball in play right? I understand your point; I disagree that the process you're advocating for will yield solid results. Poor contact isn't a reliable way to score runs or advance runners. 

Neither is watching pitches center center and getting rung up looking. Probably less reliable, eh? 

Without good contact outs, they couldn't talk about the all self important exit velocity. and what should have been but wasn't. I contend that looking at fine pitches, and close pitches with two strikes, that the batter is certainly NOT looking to put the ball in play. Most close games are not won on processes the yeild solid results, they are won on performing unusually in the clutch.

[karcherd]

18 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

So they were all looking to put the ball in play right? I understand your point; I disagree that the process you're advocating for will yield solid results. Poor contact isn't a reliable way to score runs or advance runners. 

But the process that can lead to poor contact can lead to better results, because other times you will put the ball in play with a better swing and good things can happen.  But when you are only up there to find your pitch to drive, we have seen the results of that, a called third strike or I love when we get the fly ball to the warning track with two outs.  Baseball has been played this way for decades and even Rocco claimed in spring training they were going to change their process, like they had come up a revolutionary new method to play baseball.

[Mark G]

7 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Hindsight says that his call to take SWR out couldn’t have worked out much better. The setup guys got the game to Durán with a lead and only three hitters above the minimum. Maybe it effects Woods Richardson’s psyche (I doubt it) and maybe it leaves the BP shorter for the next game (it does), but for winning the game on Sunday it was the right call and could not have worked out better.

I keep reading this, and I just can't agree.  I said it as I saw him coming in, and I am still saying it; Duran should not have been plan A at any point.  We had a starter pitching the best game of his career, maybe, and 3 or 4 horses in the pen that had more than enough rest to get us through without having to go the route we did.  Duran had thrown 20 pitches the day before, most of them stressful pitches, and he did not look all that sharp.  Extra innings, sure, they would all have to be on deck depending on how many, but plan A being the 9th no matter what?  Shouldn't have been.  But that is just me, I guess.    

[Western SD Fan]

14 minutes ago, h2oface said:

Because Vazquez is sure to have a better chance getting a hit or putting the ball in play???????

Funny you would ask?  If you assume 100% as the total PA and subtract out the walk rate and strikeout rate to get your balls put in play.  Here are the results of the three batters that came up in the 10th in the order of BB%/SO%/BIP% (Balls in Play):

Vazquez:  9.0/16.4/74.6

Jeffers:  11.3/20.7/68.0

Correa: 5.2/19.7/75.1

So, our theoretical best hitter in the inning (Correa) is only 0.5% better at putting balls in play than Vazquez and is better at not taking strikeouts than either Jeffers or Correa.  So yes, while it's unlikely that Vazquez is going to hit that big home run, he was still a reasonable option to put the ball in play compared to the other batters that inning.  Now if you wanted to PH for Vazquez, that's a different argument altogether.

[Mark G]

6 minutes ago, Western SD Fan said:

Funny you would ask?  If you assume 100% as the total PA and subtract out the walk rate and strikeout rate to get your balls put in play.  Here are the results of the three batters that came up in the 10th in the order of BB%/SO%/BIP% (Balls in Play):

Vazquez:  9.0/16.4/74.6

Jeffers:  11.3/20.7/68.0

Correa: 5.2/19.7/75.1

So, our theoretical best hitter in the inning (Correa) is only 0.5% better at putting balls in play than Vazquez and is better at not taking strikeouts than either Jeffers or Correa.  So yes, while it's unlikely that Vazquez is going to hit that big home run, he was still a reasonable option to put the ball in play compared to the other batters that inning.  Now if you wanted to PH for Vazquez, that's a different argument altogether.

No, please......another 70 or 80 posts on the benefits/harm of pinch hitting?  I will start babbling.   🤭

[KirbyDome89]

30 minutes ago, karcherd said:

But the process that can lead to poor contact can lead to better results, because other times you will put the ball in play with a better swing and good things can happen.  But when you are only up there to find your pitch to drive, we have seen the results of that, a called third strike or I love when we get the fly ball to the warning track with two outs.  Baseball has been played this way for decades and even Rocco claimed in spring training they were going to change their process, like they had come up a revolutionary new method to play baseball.

I'm not arguing that a strikeout isn't a worse outcome in that scenario, or almost any. What I'm saying is that the poor process (AB) is going to lead to poor results a vast, vast majority of the time. Altuve beating out a squibbed ball is much more a function of good fortune than a good process. 

[KirbyDome89]

46 minutes ago, h2oface said:

Neither is watching pitches center center and getting rung up looking. Probably less reliable, eh? 

Without good contact outs, they couldn't talk about the all self important exit velocity. and what should have been but wasn't. I contend that looking at fine pitches, and close pitches with two strikes, that the batter is certainly NOT looking to put the ball in play. Most close games are not won on processes the yeild solid results, they are won on performing unusually in the clutch.

"Processes that yield solid results," applies to all facets of baseball, not just whatever analytical category you're railing against in this post. What you're arguing against is fundamentally sound baseball.