Twins 4, Tigers 5: A Cold, Sloppy Team Loses a Cold, Sloppy Game

[Patzky]

40 minutes ago, ChermesZ said:

Don’t you feel his pinch hitting is not logical?  

If Jair Camargo isn't catching this series.. if Austin Martin sits another game this series.. if Funderbyrk gets pulled for no reason again this series..

 

"But the umpire and Vazquez."

[singlesoverwalks]

If the team is sloppy, that's on the manager. Look, I hate to sound like the old grumpy guy that I am, but Tom Kelly prepared his teams. They took fielding practice and those teams were defensively sharp. They worked on the details like taking extra bases, and that helped them make their own luck.

You might say that today's players are different, but if you watch the Astros play, it's notable that they just cut fewer corners and pay more attention than the Twins. It's team culture.

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

I felt sorry for Larnach being called up w/o ample time to heat up but he came through tonight. Wish for continued success for him. This game had to be & should have been won. Hitting & pitching was adequate to win the game but what really lost the game was the defense. GBs bled through the INF mainly because as always SS & 1B shade too much towards 2B to cover for Julien so GBs get through between Santana & 1B and between SS & 3B. And when Santana has to hold the runner on 1B, GBs bleed through 2B & 1B. On a wet field the throw home needed to be on the fly and Julien had plenty of time to make a good throw but he didn't. To blame Vazquez for the ball skidding past on a wet field is pretty lame.

I don't want to blame anyone. Things happen.

It wasn't a great throw... but wet grass or not. It was a long enough hop for a MLB catcher to catch. 

It doesn't matter now anyway. I'm more concerned about Vazquez hitting. And even more concerned about Camargo on the roster if he can't get a trip to the plate with the off charts struggling from his teammates. 

[CRF]

We have two more games here with Det...then 7 of the next 10 are against the ChiSox. 4 of them here right after Det leaves, then we go to LA for 3, and then we're at Chi for 3. We should know pretty definitively how bad we are after that. If the sox somehow kick our butts, then we might as well start planning for next season, because the hole will be pretty deep. If we can, let's say...take 6 of the 7 from Chi, then all hope isn't lost yet. Yes, it's early, but getting this far behind, this early, is real hard to come back from. 

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I felt sorry for Larnach being called up w/o ample time to heat up but he came through tonight. Wish for continued success for him. This game had to be & should have been won. Hitting & pitching was adequate to win the game but what really lost the game was the defense. GBs bled through the INF mainly because as always SS & 1B shade too much towards 2B to cover for Julien so GBs get through between Santana & 1B and between SS & 3B. And when Santana has to hold the runner on 1B, GBs bleed through 2B & 1B. On a wet field the throw home needed to be on the fly and Julien had plenty of time to make a good throw but he didn't. To blame Vazquez for the ball skidding past on a wet field is pretty lame.

The throw should have been on the fly but it did not skip.  It bounced pretty high.

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, Rigby said:

I dunno....Roxanne is still a classic.

"Driven to Tears"

[terrydactyls]

30 minutes ago, Patzky said:

If Jair Camargo isn't catching this series.. if Austin Martin sits another game this series.. if Funderbyrk gets pulled for no reason again this series..

 

"But the umpire and Vazquez."

None of the above makes any sense.  Those are four sentence fragments with none having a conclusion.  Please try a complete sentence that clearly explains your stance.

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, ChermesZ said:

Don’t you feel his pinch hitting is not logical?  

Trying to get a spark into a listless, pathetic line-up. If the guys he pinch hits for have a better % chance of getting a hit in a particular match-up, he doesn’t pinch hit.

From my view you apparently think his substitutions at the plate are a problem and others don’t think he can manage a bullpen. To me it just seems like senseless complaining to cover for a POOR PERFORMING offense & at times, pitching.

They are down 4 guys assumed to be core part of their line-up. Wallner - Kepler - Correa - Lewis…….the # 3, 4, 5, & 7 hitters. Bad situation!!

He puts guys in situations to succeed and they need to do it or it’s on them!

[$tryf4Life]

3 hours ago, Doctor Wu said:

I'm with you on that one. Possibly the most useless of all the new so-called "advanced" stats that are flying around all too often in posts and articles. 

Agreed. Way too much exit velocity and umpire score carding complaints. 
 

this isn’t a bad luck spell. This is a bad team. With a bad offseason and a bad coaching staff. 
 

Good teams find ways to win. Bad teams find ways to beat themselves. 

[Guest]

"Can't anybody here play this game?"  Just another day at Club Rocco....

[Woof Bronzer]

24 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

He puts guys in situations to succeed and they need to do it or it’s on them!

Does he put guys in situations to succeed though?  The hitters seem so ill prepared and some guys are clearly being asked to carry out a philosophy that goes against their strengths.  The Jax quote from the other night was very telling: basically the sabermetrics told him to throw a changeup so he did, even though that pitch "wasn't him".  Home run, game lost, rinse and repeat.

I'm not excusing the players but I think Rocco's hands are all over this mess too.  Ditto the FO.  Ditto ownership.  

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, singlesoverwalks said:

If the team is sloppy, that's on the manager. Look, I hate to sound like the old grumpy guy that I am, but Tom Kelly prepared his teams. They took fielding practice and those teams were defensively sharp. They worked on the details like taking extra bases, and that helped them make their own luck.

You might say that today's players are different, but if you watch the Astros play, it's notable that they just cut fewer corners and pay more attention than the Twins. It's team culture.

Two points regarding this post:

………the Tigers let 2 Fly Balls land in the OF in the same inning last night and it cost them 2 runs……..Ryan got pinched on strike 3, the guy walked & scored after he should have been the 3rd out. That’s baseball.

The Astros are 7-14 this year.

[Guest]

Symptomatic of the Twins' cold, sloppy play was Buck standing at the plate gazing as his double flew out to left in the sixth.  Did he think it was gone?  Foul?  He easily could've reached third if he'd started on contact.  These guys seem to lack spark and motivation.  It's hard to get enthusiastic about a team that lacks enthusiasm.

[LambchoP]

I just will never understand pulling one of our only good hitters in Kiriloff to have Margot hit for him, a guy hitting under .200. Also, why on earth would they have Farmer, who is hitting under ,100, starting over Miranda, who has looked good this year. Also Martin has looked good and needs to be playing everyday. So what does Rocco do? Sit him....

[JD-TWINS]

8 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Does he put guys in situations to succeed though?  The hitters seem so ill prepared and some guys are clearly being asked to carry out a philosophy that goes against their strengths.  The Jax quote from the other night was very telling: basically the sabermetrics told him to throw a changeup so he did, even though that pitch "wasn't him".  Home run, game lost, rinse and repeat.

I'm not excusing the players but I think Rocco's hands are all over this mess too.  Ditto the FO.  Ditto ownership.  

TIRED of hearing about the “hitter’s woes” because of some fictitious excuse of “it’s how they are being coached”. Nobody is coaching a 38 year old Santana to anything….,,,nobody is coaching Vazquez to do anything but make good contact - not coaching him to swing for home runs, ridiculous - Castro has great speed and refuses to hunt to get on - Margot is in his 9th & Buxton in his 10 season …..,they should have a pretty good feel for what works for them.

I saw here the other day that Jeffers & Kirilloff are ignoring “the coaching” & that’s why they are succeeding…….just silly.

Same coaches that were in place when the offense was scorching the League for last 2.5 months of ‘23.

Throw the change-up knees or lower - not middle-middle - knees or lower & it’s effective. Gotta execute as players. Not comfortable, shake it off. ….,,pitchers have been doing that since the beginning of time in baseball. 

Does seem like most here are excusing the players, 4 of whom aren’t on the 26 man……3 hurt & Wallner………(7 hitting under .200 - not counting Wallner) and placing the blame that they are at 40-65% of their career BA’s on the F.O. & coaching.

[USAFChief]

6 minutes ago, LambchoP said:

I just will never understand pulling one of our only good hitters in Kiriloff to have Margot hit for him, a guy hitting under .200. Also, why on earth would they have Farmer, who is hitting under ,100, starting over Miranda, who has looked good this year. Also Martin has looked good and needs to be playing everyday. So what does Rocco do? Sit him....

Farmer doesn't get PH for, against a RH'd reliever, nor Vazquez, but he can't wait to get Julien out of the game.

He bunches his LH hitters in the lineup, setting himself up for it.

Baldelli is a poor manager. Period. 

 

 

[bean5302]

First run of the game was a comedy of poor fielding. Julien muffed the ball, then double-clutched it, then it was like Vazquez couldn't even see it as the throw sailed 6" wide of his glove. Then in the 3rd, Julien dropped a throw which would have caught the runner at 2B on a Tigers steal attempt that cost a run. Then, same inning, Vazquez literally drops the pitch trying to transition to a throw which led to another Tigers steal of 2B, followed by yet another single that scores a run. Buxton hard core pimps a fly ball he thinks is a home run which turns at least a 3B into a 2B, though, the fly probably should have been caught in the first place.

What do we hear post game? Joe Ryan pity party as if the cluster of home runs he gave up in the last half of 2023 were all just bad luck and life just keeps shipping him lemons, though I appreciate Ryan handling the blown strike called a ball better than his manager, at least. Baldelli had a little meltdown about the bad call before possibly talking his way out of a fine.

The Twins lost because they didn't hit and didn't field at an MLB caliber level.

[Woof Bronzer]

11 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

 

The Astros are 7-14 this year.

One win for each of their consecutive ALCS appearances.  Yes, the Astros and the Twins are exactly the same, yes sir.

2 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

TIRED of hearing about the “hitter’s woes” because of some fictitious excuse of “it’s how they are being coached”. Nobody is coaching a 38 year old Santana to anything….,,,nobody is coaching Vazquez to do anything but make good contact - not coaching him to swing for home runs, ridiculous

 

How do you know how they are being coached? 

I just provided a specific example of a player saying he was told to throw a pitch that he would not have thrown.  Sure sounded like Jax was being coached to do a certain thing that led to failure.  Does that count?  

Do these hitters look prepared to play to you?  

[Eris]

Does Buxton not running on his “double “ off the wall show up in WPA. 

[Aggies7]

12 hours ago, darwin22 said:

When does football season start?

Vikings fan? I’ve got some bad news for you..

[chinmusic]

6 hours ago, D.C Twins said:

Yikes... I'm moving toward the indifference phase with this season at an alarming rate....

Yeah..in seasons like this I tend to become a citizen of the baseball world at large.

Does that make me a bandwagon jumper? I hope not.

But things sure are looking bleak.  I do a double take when I see the lineup.

Still blame ownership  for this mess.

But dammit, can't give up on a season 18 games in.

 

[Dlee]

 

 

When I pulled up the gameday during the game this is all I saw.  Not many twenty five cent pieces in there.

[Patzky]

2 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

None of the above makes any sense.  Those are four sentence fragments with none having a conclusion.  Please try a complete sentence that clearly explains your stance.

I got my wish, check today's lineup.

[rv78]

2 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

He puts guys in situations to succeed and they need to do it or it’s on them!

Most of those situatuions are based on career numbers. Not based on current performance, which is needed on a daily basis. Example: Julien has good numbers verses RHP but this year is hitting lefties better. So what does Rocco do? He puts him in the leadoff spot against righties and bats him 9th against lefties. That is NOT Managing based on how the player is doing. It's based on what he has done in the past. They aren't playing games from the past. Sorry, that's NOT good managing no matter how you try to twist it.

[Doctor Gast]

2 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

The throw should have been on the fly but it did not skip.  It bounced pretty high.

For a ball to bounce pretty high, it have to have a high projectory thrown from the OF & land on a dry field. The ball was thrown hard with a low projectory from the INF, landing on a wet field just in front of Vazquez with no time to react to the low bounce. All reliable sources said it skipped & that is what appeared to me. I'm not saying the play was impossible but Vazquez would have to be darn lucky.

[Whitey333]

Not hustling is inexcusable!  Way too many times I see twins hitters loafing on the bases especially on ground balls.  Just jogging down the baseline.  If you can't hustle on the bases for the three or four times each game you get up to bat you should not be playing.  Rocco  

[USAFChief]

18 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

For a ball to bounce pretty high, it have to have a high projectory thrown from the OF & land on a dry field. The ball was thrown hard with a low projectory from the INF, landing on a wet field just in front of Vazquez with no time to react to the low bounce. All reliable sources said it skipped & that is what appeared to me. I'm not saying the play was impossible but Vazquez would have to be darn lucky.

Yeah, none of this is accurate.

[D.C Twins]

5 hours ago, Karbo said:

Rocco still can't manage a bullpen.

This, this.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaand THIS!

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, Woof Bronzer said:

One win for each of their consecutive ALCS appearances.  Yes, the Astros and the Twins are exactly the same, yes sir.

How do you know how they are being coached? 

I just provided a specific example of a player saying he was told to throw a pitch that he would not have thrown.  Sure sounded like Jax was being coached to do a certain thing that led to failure.  Does that count?  

Do these hitters look prepared to play to you?  

I think Carlos Santana looks like he should be playing in an Old Timers League ……I think Willi Castro was reading about his success all winter on the net & thinks he’s better than he is…….,I think Kyle Farmer should turn the pitching gun up to 97 mph and spend about 20 minutes a day trying to get his reflexes in line with MLB pitching. Players need to get to work & figure it out!

You seem to be the one who thinks they know how they are being coached - “poorly”. I’ve repeatedly pointed out that the players need to take responsibility & perform.

My comment about Jax is if he felt strong enough about not throwing a change-up - Shake It Off! ………if you feel compelled that you NEED to throw it EXECUTE!! Middle-middle isn’t the spot for any pitch other than an occasional 3-0 fastball.

[RpR]

43 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

Lots of mistakes in this game.  The one that I cannot forgive is Buxton standing at the plate admiring his ball.  There is absolutely no reason not to run hard on every hit ball.  Kirby Puckett would have puked watching Buxton on that play.

Jake Cave was no speedster but he would have been heading for second by the time the ball hit the wall.