I'm officially done with Rocco

[twinssporto]

On 9/13/2023 at 7:41 PM, stringer bell said:

This follows Rocco’s trend, which started on Opening Day, of pinch hitting with the platoon advantage, as soon as the third or fourth inning. It has worked sometimes, but I always feel that emptying the bench early is a net disadvantage unless runs are produced, especially if the defense is weakened. 

Totally agree.

I sometimes think they are trying to solve some weird "Sabermetric" theory. Money Ball 2 in the works????? 

[twinssporto]

14 hours ago, Five minute major said:

Glad to see you joining the club USAF.  Been screaming at the top of the mountain for a couple years now.   He absolutely rode the coattails of Nelson Cruz for his first couple years and now is benefitting from being in the worst division in MLB.   

But this FO is equally inept as well.  The fanbase in this state has been beaten down to the point of moral victories and "he's a nice guy" takes.   Eff that.  We are going NOWHERE with this FO or coach.   The entire organization needs to be gutted at all executive leadership/managerial levels.  

It is glaringly obvious.  

 

 

 

Dude, we're going to the playoffs. Thank the good Lord you're not a Tigers fan.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be trite. .However, I do agree with some of your post....I'm on the drop Baldelli express train. 

[wabene]

22 hours ago, Five minute major said:

Glad to see you joining the club USAF.  Been screaming at the top of the mountain for a couple years now.   He absolutely rode the coattails of Nelson Cruz for his first couple years and now is benefitting from being in the worst division in MLB.   

But this FO is equally inept as well.  The fanbase in this state has been beaten down to the point of moral victories and "he's a nice guy" takes.   Eff that.  We are going NOWHERE with this FO or coach.   The entire organization needs to be gutted at all executive leadership/managerial levels.  

It is glaringly obvious.  

 

 

 

Please don't lump me into this I don't agree at all. The Vikings have the 7th best winning percentage in the league over their existence. That means there are 25 fan bases that are even more beaten down, lol. I became a fan in the 70's and people cry about the SB losses. Yes of course I wish they had won them all, but that was a great team to follow. That 10 year run, or whatever it was, they were the best team in the league and provided the most entertainment possible.

Ok your a nothing less than a championship is success guy? The Twins have 2. They did that as an underdog franchise in a league that does not offer a level playing field. We just came off of 90 or more losses in 6 out of 7 years to make the playoffs 3 out of 5 years and your miserable? This does not make sense to me, sorry. Last night the Twins crushed the Dirty Sox on the backs of young exciting talent and the Vikes beat themselves and almost Philly. I was very entertained. 

[JD-TWINS]

15 hours ago, Otaknam said:

I understand the frustration w Rocco as manager. My biggest complaint is his over reliance on stats, especially with starting pitchers. We all understand that the more times batters face a pitcher the more comfortable they are. But sometimes a manager has to show confidence and trust in his players and let them keep going. I remember a game two years ago when Ryan has something like 80 pitches through six or seven innings, with only 1 run and very few hits, and was pulled by Baldelli. Heaven forbid Ryan faces a lineup a fourth time! And of course the Twins lost. Imagine if Rocco had managed Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, or Blyleven? No HOF for those guys! 

The Twins starters average going deeper into games than any other team in the Bigs in ‘23…….stat from early August…….doubt it has changed much. Maeda cruises through 7 last night.

If somebody paid attention to innings with Koufax, maybe he doesn’t have to retire at age 30!

Different time - different expectations on starters - nobody throwing 97-100MPH (let alone 3 guys) in nearly every Pen.

Don’t get the constant attacks on Baldelli - he’s managing the team…..he’s not giving up HR’s in the 9th nor striking out in key situations. Ball players win & lose games.

[Nine of twelve]

Could someone from the “officially done” cohort please answer this: what exactly does that mean? Are you going to boycott the team or something?

[Woof Bronzer]

47 minutes ago, wabene said:

Ok your a nothing less than a championship is success guy?  

Is there a middle ground between championships every year and winning 1 playoff series in 30 years?

It's great that you are optimistic about the Twins.  That's your right and I'm glad they make you happy.   Surely you can understand though that some fans of the organization with the 2nd longest active playoff series win drought (not to mention the longest playoff game losing streak in the history of American sports) are a bit gloomy.  I truly, truly don't understand the instinct to shame fans for feeling this way.   

[MinnInPa]

20 hours ago, Battle ur tail off said:

I have been done with him mid-way through last year. He rarely uses gut feel, it is always what the spreadsheet says. 

My eyes tell me that Vasquez is the worst hitter on the team. Worse than Gallo or anyone. I NEVER use this guy to pinch hit. Ever. 

Rocco does this same thing with pitching. I have stated before that I am not 100% if his way works better or worse over the long haul, but I am convinced that on a "game by game" basis, he will generally be outmanaged by the other dugout. 

About Jax. He has actually been decent lately I thought he had it back until the Mets game and this one.

That pitch hit out of the yard yesterday though, was ON THE CATCHER or bench. Pitch right before that was a breaking ball, sat and spun came out of his hand bad. The ding dongs go right back to it and he threw one that hung and bang. Throw the damn fastball there guys out of the zone.

thanks ..i wasnt watching live..  they have to be smarter..they all live too much in the middle of the plate

[MinnInPa]

21 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

I think you meant to put a comment in the game thread. I did not comment on Jax. No problem though.

FWIW, Jax did not throw a single fastball to Arozarena. Arozarena hit a sweeper for the home run. 

thanks...my opinion of Jax has never changed.. i just dont trust him in any situation..gets hit hard

[karcherd]

On 9/14/2023 at 7:34 AM, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Rocco honestly seems like a great guy. However, the Twins PR people didn’t even want to have a press conference to announce that he had been extended. Instead, it was a leak. Even Gardy had press conferences. 

 

And remember it took over a year to even leak, that was very strange.

[wabene]

2 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Is there a middle ground between championships every year and winning 1 playoff series in 30 years?

It's great that you are optimistic about the Twins.  That's your right and I'm glad they make you happy.   Surely you can understand though that some fans of the organization with the 2nd longest active playoff series win drought (not to mention the longest playoff game losing streak in the history of American sports) are a bit gloomy.  I truly, truly don't understand the instinct to shame fans for feeling this way.   

Shame? Give me a break, I disagreed with the guy for lumping me in with his vision of sports fandom and expressed my opinion. Are you shaming me for shaming him, lol?

If the Twins get swept out of the playoffs again, it would be pretty much a disaster, I get that. What I don't get is if you are going to be so "gloomy" about something, why keep doing it? I watch sports for entertainment and fun. A meaningless distraction from real world problems. 

[karcherd]

23 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

The Twins starters average going deeper into games than any other team in the Bigs in ‘23…….stat from early August…….doubt it has changed much. Maeda cruises through 7 last night.

If somebody paid attention to innings with Koufax, maybe he doesn’t have to retire at age 30!

Different time - different expectations on starters - nobody throwing 97-100MPH (let alone 3 guys) in nearly every Pen.

Don’t get the constant attacks on Baldelli - he’s managing the team…..he’s not giving up HR’s in the 9th nor striking out in key situations. Ball players win & lose games.

Baldelli has led us to a cumulative record of 15 games under .500 since 21.  He had the juiced ball in 2019 and used to get to 100 wins.  But since then his series of moves have not produced a winning formula even in the weakest division in baseball.  He has continually increased the platoon usage and it is not producing wins on a consistent basis.  We had 64 pinch hitting AB's in 2019, this year we have 148 as of two days ago.  All players are not equal when you keep pinch hitting so early in the game that is what you saying in the manager and it just simply is not true.  The handedness you hit from should not be the only criteria, I want the best player up there to hit.  Develop a core of regular of players and play the bench guys in roles where they can be more successful.  Rocco has not done this and we will not win consistently until he does.

[LewFordLives]

It's interesting how many comments this generated in less than two days.

[Number3]

The proof in the pudding will be when the playoffs begin. Not only is the Central the weakest division but winning the division gives the Twins home field advantage for the wild card round in a 3 game series against the lowest seeded wild card team so the Twins get a break all the way around.  Right now that team would be the Mariners but who ever it is will have a better record than the Twins. If Rocco can't at least manage his way through the wild card round the regular season record is meaningless and the Twins have been under no pressure for the majority of the season. The best team in baseball is the Atlanta Braves and they send the same lineup out day after day after day. Baldelli uses"Excel" to determine his lineups and juggles more than a circus performer. That will come back to haunt him in the playoffs more than likely.

[FlyingFinn]

3 minutes ago, Number3 said:

The best team in baseball is the Atlanta Braves and they send the same lineup out day after day after day. Baldelli uses"Excel" to determine his lineups and juggles more than a circus performer.

List the 9 healthy hitters you would put in the lineup day after day if you were the Twins manager, against both rh's and lh's.

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, Nine of twelve said:

Could someone from the “officially done” cohort please answer this: what exactly does that mean? Are you going to boycott the team or something?

I can only speak for myself, but it means not spending money on the Twins, not prioritizing watching their games, not defending them when they do the "right thing" and it goes wrong while others are complaining about it, it means not being sad or mad when things go wrong. It is kind of like the last few years of the Zimmer years with the vikes I am just not as emotional involved as I was before.  It doesn't mean I don't cheer for the Twins I do, I hope/want them to win every game and the players to do really well.

[rv78]

I lost all respect for Rocco last year when he made the comment that he didn't know what to do when Correa and Buxton had their "scheduled" off days fall on the same day. My 10 year old grandson said, Can't he have one of them wait until tommorow?

Ironically now the team is better when they both DON'T play.

[Alex]

5 hours ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Is there a middle ground between championships every year and winning 1 playoff series in 30 years?

It's great that you are optimistic about the Twins.  That's your right and I'm glad they make you happy.   Surely you can understand though that some fans of the organization with the 2nd longest active playoff series win drought (not to mention the longest playoff game losing streak in the history of American sports) are a bit gloomy.  I truly, truly don't understand the instinct to shame fans for feeling this way.   

I think there's fair reason to be disenchanted with the Twins in the long term and frustrated, but the level of vitriol (and I don't just mean criticism) directed at the current front office and manager is really odd since they've put together the most sustained success this team has seen recently.   The front office has taken more big swings than any the Twins have had both in FA and through trades to try to make this team better, and I think the Baldelli is the only Twins manager with a record above .500 (EDIT:  One of 10 and only one besides Gardy since 1970).

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Do you think fans tune in to the playoff games knowing they are going to lose and it will thus be neither fun nor entertaining?

The Playoff losing streak was yesterday. 18 loses in a row yesterday has no bearing on the results of the 2023 playoffs tomorrow. 

I let the streak go on October 1, 2020 and haven't looked back. I wouldn't let it poison your 2023 prematurely. 😎

.  

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, karcherd said:

Baldelli has led us to a cumulative record of 15 games under .500 since 21.  He had the juiced ball in 2019 and used to get to 100 wins.  But since then his series of moves have not produced a winning formula even in the weakest division in baseball.  He has continually increased the platoon usage and it is not producing wins on a consistent basis.  We had 64 pinch hitting AB's in 2019, this year we have 148 as of two days ago.  All players are not equal when you keep pinch hitting so early in the game that is what you saying in the manager and it just simply is not true.  The handedness you hit from should not be the only criteria, I want the best player up there to hit.  Develop a core of regular of players and play the bench guys in roles where they can be more successful.  Rocco has not done this and we will not win consistently until he does.

I love the "it was the juiced ball" argument that is always used to diminish the 2019 team. They also had a top 10 pitching staff that year that was decimated when they got to the playoffs, unfortunately. I'm not a big Rocco guy. I'm an "analytics guy," but I think this regime (Falvine and Rocco being the head guys) goes overboard with it. But every team in 2019 had the same balls. Just like they all have the same balls this year. Suggesting we ignore his 2019 record because the balls the entire league used were different than they are this year is just cherry picking the stats you want to use. And if the argument turns to lineups full of HR bashing guys then it's not Rocco you're upset with, it's Falvine. Rocco doesn't pick his players or the strengths they have.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Number3 said:

The best team in baseball is the Atlanta Braves and they send the same lineup out day after day after day. Baldelli uses"Excel" to determine his lineups and juggles more than a circus performer. 

I'd love to see your ranking of the Twins and Braves hitters combined. I like @FlyingFinn's idea of just naming Twins batters who are true everyday guys, but I'd like to take it 1 step further and list the Twins batters that would make the Atlanta starting lineup. 

Position by position if I got to choose between these 2 teams my lineup would be:
C: Sean Murphy
1B: Matt Olson
2B: Ozzie Albies
3B: Austin Riley
SS: Carlos Correa
LF: Ronald Acuna Jr
CF: Michael Harris II
RF: Max Kepler
DH: Marcell Ozuna

The only 2 Twins that'd even make their lineup are there for their defense (Correa) or beating out Eddie Rosario with a large part of that being because of defense (Kepler). I can't imagine why the Twins are doing things differently than a Braves team threatening the single season HR record without a juiced ball. 

[karcherd]

49 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I love the "it was the juiced ball" argument that is always used to diminish the 2019 team. They also had a top 10 pitching staff that year that was decimated when they got to the playoffs, unfortunately. I'm not a big Rocco guy. I'm an "analytics guy," but I think this regime (Falvine and Rocco being the head guys) goes overboard with it. But every team in 2019 had the same balls. Just like they all have the same balls this year. Suggesting we ignore his 2019 record because the balls the entire league used were different than they are this year is just cherry picking the stats you want to use. And if the argument turns to lineups full of HR bashing guys then it's not Rocco you're upset with, it's Falvine. Rocco doesn't pick his players or the strengths they have.

My main point was Rocco can't keep living off of his success in 2019.  We need to see better results and his in game moves are not producing good overall results.  Individual moves in a certain game are just examples.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

23 hours ago, Alex said:

It's weird to me that in a near-meaningless game, where the move actually gives the team a better chance to win is the breaking point for some.  

I generally think people focus too much on moves that don't go well.  Meanwhile, in the last few series, he's had some moves that really paid off in the pinch-hitting and pinch-running department.  Those mostly go un-noticed.   There's not often posts where people say they are jumping on the Baldelli Bandwagon because he pinch ran Andrew Stevenson who forced the opposing team into errors to score a key run.

If you'd have said that a manager's two best players are going to underperform for the season and that he's still going to lead that team to win the division, most of us would be praising that manager (and he is going to get votes for Manager of the Year). 

Sure, it's the weakest division in the league, but would you rather he not actually win it?   If he'd had the roster that he has now for the whole season (and Kepler hadn't been a dead weight during the first half), this team would easily have won 90 games.  I generally don't think that managers matter as much as people think, but I do think he's well liked by the players and so many of his moves were under a microscope early in the season because of all the close games and an underperforming offense.

Alex this has been my point all along.  What the front office and Baldelli has done is performed their jobs.   In most years in the past most would have been pleased with the outcome.  Yes there would still have been nitpicking.  However,  lately there has been a group of individuals that continue with the phrase -  they are done with the Twins or baseball.   I tried to make a joke of it the other day,  because they will be right back here the next day.   When those individuals are truly done and stop watching is when ownership will make a change.  Ownership is dictating some of the moves by their recommendations on salary,  so we do also have to take that into account.  I look forward to the rest of the season and post season and hope they have a good run.  

[chpettit19]

21 minutes ago, karcherd said:

My main point was Rocco can't keep living off of his success in 2019.  We need to see better results and his in game moves are not producing good overall results.  Individual moves in a certain game are just examples.

Yeah, I don't care if they fire Rocco, and the last 2 seasons were very disappointing, but last season's record on September first was 67-62 before circumstances outside of Rocco's control (injuries) tanked that season. Cutting out a season where everything seemed to go right for most of the year while including a season where everything came crashing down at the end of the year skews the results. 

I'm not a believer in managers making a huge difference. I don't think Tito would have the Twins sitting at 90 wins right now. I have a very strong dislike for the pinch hitting before the 7th inning when you know that spot is coming up in the lineup again. Especially when he empties his bench early. But I also think MLB managers are a lot like NFL QBs in that they get more credit and more blame than they deserve for team performance. It was pretty well accepted by almost everyone that this team was good enough to win the central, which we thought would be bad, and get about 81 to 85 wins. This team is going to win the central, which is bad, and get about 81 to 85 wins. If Tito was the manager would we be looking at 84-88 wins instead? Maybe, but I don't think Rocco is costing this team a dozen plus wins like some people make it seem, or downright claim. 

I think talent wins. Talent won in 2019. Lack of talent lost in 2021. OK talent stayed afloat for most of 2022 before an extreme lack of talent lost extremely at the end of 2022. This thread started because Rocco pinch hit a really bad righty on righty batter for a really bad lefty on lefty hitter in the 9th the other day. Not the move I would've preferred, but people act like he took Barry Bonds out for Nick Punto. I can understand the strategy of looking for every little advantage when your roster is so closely clustered in talent, and that talent isn't exactly elite. I'd prefer the team just be more talented, but teams expected to be around .500 based on their talent are probably best off looking for advantages on the margins over the course of a very long season.

I won't be sad if they fire Rocco, but I don't think he's nearly as bad as people suggest. The Twins just deploy a less than fan friendly strategy which leads to a lot of understandable frustration.

[USAFChief]

4 hours ago, wabene said:

 I watch sports for entertainment and fun. A meaningless distraction from real world problems. 

I also watch sports for entertainment and fun.

And for me, if I don't care about the outcome,  there's little to no entertainment or fun.

When I no longer care if the Twins win or lose, I will no longer pay any attention to the Twins. I hope that day never comes. I want losses to sting, because I want wins to be enjoyed. 

YMMV.

[Dave Borton]

4 hours ago, LewFordLives said:

It's interesting how many comments this generated in less than two days.

Lightening rod/issue.

Lots of speaking re: FO (ergo field manager) seemingly using an over reliance on statistical approach to the game. I think some comments are generated by personalities of Falvey/Baldelli, some are from questioning the decisions made by the same, and some come from a shifting paradigm of field management surrendered to the FO.

That is the nature of the game and I have seen these discussions for a very long time as a ball fan. I don't mind them a bit unless they become personal. I haven't seen that in this thread.

All worthy opinions.

"Let's play 2."

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I'd love to see your ranking of the Twins and Braves hitters combined. I like @FlyingFinn's idea of just naming Twins batters who are true everyday guys, but I'd like to take it 1 step further and list the Twins batters that would make the Atlanta starting lineup. 

Position by position if I got to choose between these 2 teams my lineup would be:
C: Sean Murphy
1B: Matt Olson
2B: Ozzie Albies
3B: Austin Riley
SS: Carlos Correa
LF: Ronald Acuna Jr
CF: Michael Harris II
RF: Max Kepler
DH: Marcell Ozuna

The only 2 Twins that'd even make their lineup are there for their defense (Correa) or beating out Eddie Rosario with a large part of that being because of defense (Kepler). I can't imagine why the Twins are doing things differently than a Braves team threatening the single season HR record without a juiced ball. 

No Lewis or Julien anywhere???? 

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

No Lewis or Julien anywhere???? 

Best argument would be for Lewis at SS over Correa, or maybe DH over Ozuna. But they're not better than Riley or Albies at this points in their careers. That Atlanta lineup is crazy good.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

... and I think the Baldelli is the only Twins manager with a record above .500

Ron Gardenhire, Bill Rigney, Billy Martin, Cal Ermer and Sam Mele say hi.

Also, we have a different definition of "vitriol."

[Hubie29]

Just because a guy has played major league baseball and wears a major league uniform, that means he knows baseball and the strategy that goes along with it? I am going to say something now, and I don't intend it as a joke. There are thousands of posters on these blogs, and I guarantee you some of them know baseball strategy better than Rocco. I hate it when people say,  "well he knows more about baseball than we do".  Why does he? Cuz he looks the part? He has proven over the years he doesn't "get it".

[Alex]

23 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Ron Gardenhire, Bill Rigney, Billy Martin, Cal Ermer and Sam Mele say hi.

Also, we have a different definition of "vitriol."

You're right, I was looking at the sort the wrong way (which is what I get for being in a rush).  There are 10 and he is 7th.   He and Gardenhire are the only ones since 1970.

It sounds like we have a different definition of a lot of things, and I don't think it's worth getting too far into a semantical debate, but I think we don't have to go beyond this thread to see examples of it.