If He's Fired, Rocco Baldelli Will Only Be Minnesota Twins' “Fall Guy”

[Whitey333]

Yes it's time for a change.  I'm not a Baldelli fan at all but I surely don't place all the blame on him.  Baldelli appears to have very little leadership qualities.  He appears to stubbornly stick to his analytical pie chart not overly concerned about winning.  And it shows.  But if Baldelli goes so should Falvey.  That's not likely since he just got a promotion by ownership.  This team is a mess.  None of the powers to be seem to care.

[killebrewlover]

Agreed that Baldelli is only part of the problem.  Unfortunately, this starts with the owners and, as they say about you know what, flowing downhill...    It's just a bad situation that won't get any better until the Pohlads are gone.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

This is a multi-layered issue.  

Here is the issues so far this season that you can put on Baldelli's shoulders. 

1. The biggest one being Jax,  continuing to run him out and having 3 blown saves.  He hasn't looked right this year,  what worked so well last year,  just isn't this year.  In my opinion should have been optioned down sooner or sent to the DL.  

2. Batters as a whole getting off to slow starts.  This is becoming a trend.  

Not in his control: 

1. Signing Correa who consistently gets off to slow starts.  

2. Having several injuries to key players.  

 

 

I do think this team will get better as some of the batters heal,  and Griffin Jax either figures it out,  moves to lower leveraged innings,  or is optioned to figure it out.   There is too much talent on this team to not be competitive, especially if we are going to get solid play at 1st base from our $1 million dollar man - Ty France.   

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

The upside of his replacement being a solution is worth that risk.

I personally don't see much upside in a replacement either.  The only "solution" is fielding a much better group of position players and I don't think replacing the manager fixes that.

But, as @Danchat mentioned, I'm game to see how much of what we see day to day as being organization vs. Rocco.  I'm also willing to bet that whoever replaces him does things very, very similarly.

[jmlease1]

I mean, if the Pohlads actually manage to sell the team (which may not happen because they've saddled it up with a nice chunk of debt they want the owner to take on in addition to getting their sale price) the current situation is making it very easy for a new owner to clean house and start over with the front office and coaching staff, which probably leads to changes on the roster as well.

I've always thought Baldelli was...fine. Maybe not great, but not awful. When his players are doing well, he looks smart, when they're injured/stink he looks like a idiot. With the vast majority of baseball managers, I feel that's the way. I'm often mildly defending Rocco around here because I usually feel like people overrate the ability of a manager to impact the game and player performance directly, and a lot of the stuff is just cheap insults because they don't like the way baseball is played today.

I don't know that firing Baldelli changes much. The roster is what it is. but sometimes managers start getting tuned out, sometimes a change in style helps guys find their form again. not really sure that's the issue here: injuries are a big issue on this team (again), not much of a talent infusion came in this season (again) in free agency to shore up weaknesses, and some young players have failed to effectively make the transition to MLB. I guess you can blame some of the last one on Rocco and the MLB coaching staff?

but whatever will people around here do if they can't call the manager "rockhead" any longer and blame him for all of life's ills?

I'm not really going to advocate for Rocco to stay or go. I'm sure he'll be just fine if he gets fired. It won't be a disaster if he stays another month or through the end of the season, really. responsibility for the disaster ranks as follows for me: 1. players, 2. ownership, 3. front office, 4. manager/coaches, 5. minor league development staff

[Rufus]

Oh BS,  If a manager or coach has no impact,  look at the difference that O'Connell and Finch have had on the Vikings and Wolves.  Both teams have changed from struggling with mediocrity to model franchises since they took over.  The Pohlads main issues is not that they are cheap, but they are too loyal to their management,  The Pohlads spend plenty of money on player development, technologies and facilities they are not cheap and I think they spend their money correctly.   The Twins have developed a good pitching pipeline.  But they need to develop a system of teaching fundamentals to their other prospects.   There seems to be a real void in this area.  A new focus is needed in this area,  Major league players, should not be throwing to bases where no one is at, should not be going back to the dugout after being called safe,  needs to make a complete follow through on his swings,  on and on.  A coach at any level should not put up with players that make these boneheaded errors.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

I think a new owner might fire Falvey just because he wouldn't fire Rocco.

For sure. Falvey doesn't keep his job unless this team goes on some magical run.

I'm just suggesting that if they replace Baldelli while Falvey rides out his remaining time on the gravy train, the difference between the Falvey/Baldelli and Falvey/New Manager dynamic may provide more detail into specifically what the team doesn't want when they start over.

[DJL44]

53 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

This is a multi-layered issue.  

Here is the issues so far this season that you can put on Baldelli's shoulders. 

1) Players don't know where to position themselves on defense during discretionary plays where more than one player could make the play (cut-offs, bunts, in-between fielding plays).

2) Starting pitchers are not prepared to throw more than 75 pitches in April. 

3) Baserunners are not motivated to run at full speed

That's enough.

[TheLeviathan]

3 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

For sure. Falvey doesn't keep his job unless this team goes on some magical run.

I'm just suggesting that if they replace Baldelli while Falvey rides out his remaining time on the gravy train, the difference between the Falvey/Baldelli and Falvey/New Manager dynamic may provide more detail into specifically what the team doesn't want when they start over.

I mean.....are we sure that these guys won't keep their jobs?  Isn't at least part of why Ryan was GM (both times) because he was cheap and the Pohlads weren't going to be saddled with paying both a current and former GM a hefty deal?

[nicksaviking]

6 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

I mean.....are we sure that these guys won't keep their jobs?  Isn't at least part of why Ryan was GM (both times) because he was cheap and the Pohlads weren't going to be saddled with paying both a current and former GM a hefty deal?

Keep their jobs with new ownership? Unless this team turns into a bona fide contender, I'd guess the new guys will want to show they're making changes, and getting new managers and GMs is way cheaper than new players.

Under the Pohlads? No, I'm guessing both stay unless a sale is completely off the table. Falvey almost 100% stays. But I could see Falvey talking the Pohlads into firing Baldelli if Falvey thinks a spark might help save HIS job though.

But no one ever disclosed Baldelli's contract extension. For all we know he was giving a 50-year deal with an option for a 51st.

[PatG]

14 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

For sure. Falvey doesn't keep his job unless this team goes on some magical run.

I'm just suggesting that if they replace Baldelli while Falvey rides out his remaining time on the gravy train, the difference between the Falvey/Baldelli and Falvey/New Manager dynamic may provide more detail into specifically what the team doesn't want when they start over.

Isn't our pitching staff much better than 5 years ago?  I think so and Falvey has made that happen. 

They are bringing up pitchers and letting them pitch versus what happened under the last regime (let them stay in minors forever).

I think the problem has been not signing a big bopping right-handed bat; Professional hitter.  Get that one guy to be "the" guy.

But, Rocco's handling of the pitching staff sometimes perturbs me; let Jax pitch in the 6th inning to get him back on track.....

[nicksaviking]

5 minutes ago, PatG said:

Isn't our pitching staff much better than 5 years ago?  I think so and Falvey has made that happen. 

They are bringing up pitchers and letting them pitch versus what happened under the last regime (let them stay in minors forever).

I think the problem has been not signing a big bopping right-handed bat; Professional hitter.  Get that one guy to be "the" guy.

But, Rocco's handling of the pitching staff sometimes perturbs me; let Jax pitch in the 6th inning to get him back on track.....

This team could have Atlanta's pitching staff from the 1990's, but there's no way new owners are going to hang on to Falvey if they aren't competitive.

Honestly, there might be a stronger argument that having a really good rotation yet still having a really terrible team is evidence that the President of Baseball Operations ISN'T doing a good job.

[FargoFanMan]

The only thing I will ever blame on Rocco is simply not having enough fire. Challenging umpires and certain calls may not accomplish much but in a way it accomplishes so much from a team mentality aspect. That’s one thing a manager can do. He seems to have become ho-hum in his approach the last few years and while that keeps the team on an even keel it certainly doesn’t fire them up. This team never really seems too fired up and that seems to be a problem. They have no passion it seems.

[TheLeviathan]

21 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Keep their jobs with new ownership? Unless this team turns into a bona fide contender, I'd guess the new guys will want to show they're making changes, and getting new managers and GMs is way cheaper than new players.

Under the Pohlads? No, I'm guessing both stay unless a sale is completely off the table. Falvey almost 100% stays. But I could see Falvey talking the Pohlads into firing Baldelli if Falvey thinks a spark might help save HIS job though.

But one ever disclosed Baldelli's contract extension. For all we know he was giving a 50-year deal with an option for a 51st.

I just assume we are stuck with the Pohlads.   We dont know their contracts, but I know if either were given a healthy extension....Pohlads arent paying double.

[FargoFanMan]

1 hour ago, Rufus said:

Oh BS,  If a manager or coach has no impact,  look at the difference that O'Connell and Finch have had on the Vikings and Wolves.  Both teams have changed from struggling with mediocrity to model franchises since they took over.  The Pohlads main issues is not that they are cheap, but they are too loyal to their management,  The Pohlads spend plenty of money on player development, technologies and facilities they are not cheap and I think they spend their money correctly.   The Twins have developed a good pitching pipeline.  But they need to develop a system of teaching fundamentals to their other prospects.   There seems to be a real void in this area.  A new focus is needed in this area,  Major league players, should not be throwing to bases where no one is at, should not be going back to the dugout after being called safe,  needs to make a complete follow through on his swings,  on and on.  A coach at any level should not put up with players that make these boneheaded errors.

Despite all the numbers and analytics and matchups I guess it still matters to have strong fundamentals and play the game hard. Weird. I guess what’s worked for over 100 years is still relevant in this modern game? Crazy! 

[Bodie]

Is he THE problem? No, probably not.

But he assuredly IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!

[LastOnePicked]

I cannot figure out the culture that surrounds this team. Many fans seem to think that a Twins managerial position is a lifetime appointment, and that firing Rocco is some kind of injustice. It's not.

It is actually okay to fire a manager for a team's underperformance. It happens all across baseball and it has for years. It can shake players out of complacency, offer a team a new set of eyes and ears, and potentially change the tone and the play on the field.

I cannot think of a team that needs this more than the MN Twins. Don't cry for Baldelli. He's been well compensated for his services. He will likely land another spot in MLB, probably like Tingler did. He has to know that this kind of pressure comes with the territory.

The buck for abject on-the-field failure has to stop somewhere, folks. The FO has it's own problems, but there have been some okay trades and decent drafts. Ownership is awful, but they have funded a top AL Central payroll for awhile now. I'd be happy to replace either of these, too, but right now, the glaring issue remains a poorly managed, sluggish, sloppy baseball team.

Baldelli is not in any way a fall guy. He hasn't earned the security he's receiving. It's long past time for a change if this organization has given any priority to winning during this window of contention.

[big dog]

2 hours ago, Rufus said:

Oh BS,  If a manager or coach has no impact,  look at the difference that O'Connell and Finch have had on the Vikings and Wolves.  Both teams have changed from struggling with mediocrity to model franchises since they took over.  The Pohlads main issues is not that they are cheap, but they are too loyal to their management,  The Pohlads spend plenty of money on player development, technologies and facilities they are not cheap and I think they spend their money correctly.   The Twins have developed a good pitching pipeline.  But they need to develop a system of teaching fundamentals to their other prospects.   There seems to be a real void in this area.  A new focus is needed in this area,  .

Didn’t both those guys come in with new GMs? They didn’t do this single-handedly. Also both those teams spend money. 
I’m not defending Baldelli but just a new manager isn’t going to fix this team. 

[Nashvilletwin]

IMHO, the manager of the Minnesota Twins has three primary responsibilities:

1. Developing young projectable talent from within the organizantion’s minor league system into quality, regular, major league players.

2. Getting the most out of your players (whether through teaching, coaching, inspiration, confidence building, leadership, etc.).

3. Making tactical and strategic baseball decisions in the dugout.

Very simply, a successful Twins manager will excel at these three needs.

Honestly now, what do you, my fellow TDers, think of Rocco’s performance/capabilities in these three areas?

One opinion: he stinks at transitioning minor leaguers, particularly position players; not one single person on the team this season is overperforming; and net/net his dugout decisions probably cost us a handful of games vis-a-vis other managers’ per season.

He has to go….its time.

 

[FargoFanMan]

8 minutes ago, big dog said:

Didn’t both those guys come in with new GMs? They didn’t do this single-handedly. Also both those teams spend money. 
I’m not defending Baldelli but just a new manager isn’t going to fix this team. 

Irrelevant whether they spend money or not. Those are both salary cap leagues. It’s not baldelli’s fault but at this point you have to send a message and maybe salvage the poor start.  It won’t be players, FO or ownership so that leaves one guy. 

[FargoFanMan]

3 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

IMHO, the manager of the Minnesota Twins has three primary responsibilities:

1. Developing young projectable talent from within the organizantion’s minor league system into quality, regular, major league players.

2. Getting the most out of your players (whether through teaching, coaching, inspiration, confidence building, leadership, etc.).

3. Making tactical and strategic baseball decisions in the dugout.

Very simply, a successful Twins manager will excel at these three needs.

Honestly now, what do you, my fellow TDers, think of Rocco’s performance/capabilities in these three areas?

One opinion: he stinks at transitioning minor leaguers, particularly position players; not one single person on the team this season is overperforming; and net/net his dugout decisions probably cost us a handful of games vis-a-vis other managers’ per season.

He has to go….its time.

 

It’s not his job to develop players. Pretty sure there’s coaches for that. His primary responsibility is to put players in positions to succeed which leads to winning games. 

[darin617]

When, not if he's fired.

Technically, they are too damn cheap to fire Rocco and then have to pay him and his replacement.

So fear not, Rocco is as safe as if he just won back to back World Series.

[old nurse]

6 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

It seems like most, if not all, defenses of Baldelli run along the lines of "it's not his fault" or "he's not the problem."

If that's your position ( and there's certainly at least some truth to it), then ask yourself this:

Is Baldelli the solution to any of the team's issues?

I have a hard time coming up with a way in which he is.  So even if he'll get replaced by Tingler or someone else that will be a clone or continue following Falvey's marching orders or whatever, it's worth trying to see if someone else can be the solution, or part of the solution.  The status quo is not worth maintaining with the continuity Baldelli provides, so there isn't much risk in his replacement being worse.  The upside of his replacement being a solution is worth that risk.

The manager does not make trades, he des t sed players up or down, nor does he draft or develop them. He is not the trainer nor the conditioning coach. The Twins’ problems are not anything he has control over.  So no he can’t fix the problem nor could any other manager

[Nashvilletwin]

13 minutes ago, FargoFanMan said:

It’s not his job to develop players. Pretty sure there’s coaches for that. His primary responsibility is to put players in positions to succeed which leads to winning games. 

You’re kidding, right? How incredibly naive to assume that once the player crosses the river, the development stops.  Of course, given how well versed (please note the extremely heavy sarcasm) our young players are in the fundamentals, I can see how one might think like you do.

Developing young players, most especially for a franchise like the Twins that cannot rely on a steady stream of high priced free agents, is literally the most important role that the Twins manager and his staff have. Number one.  We will never, ever be able to compete consistently without excelling in this area,  It’s the only way to achieve any hope of a competitive advantage in the modern MLB.

[D.C Twins]

 'I don't think a manager has a determinative impact on player performance, one way or another.'

....yeah, history has clearly shown that leadership is not needed 

🤭

[D.C Twins]

I would love to hear from anyone at TD who thinks Rocco will be ever be a manager for an MLB team again. 

Nobody is waiting with baited breath to hire him away from us. 

[FargoFanMan]

36 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

You’re kidding, right? How incredibly naive to assume that once the player crosses the river, the development stops.  Of course, given how well versed (please note the extremely heavy sarcasm) our young players are in the fundamentals, I can see how one might think like you do.

Developing young players, most especially for a franchise like the Twins that cannot rely on a steady stream of high priced free agents, is literally the most important role that the Twins manager and his staff have. Number one.  We will never, ever be able to compete consistently without excelling in this area,  It’s the only way to achieve any hope of a competitive advantage in the modern MLB.

The manager may “help” in development but that’s the different coaches jobs. Hence the hitting coach, pitching coach, IF coach and OF coach and the numerous other staff. The managers job is to manage the team he is given. By the time these guys get to MLB they are sufficiently MLB developed. From there it is up to them and the coaches to further develop the players. Not the manager. It’s not his primary job to develop.

[T.O.]

Don't say "Fall" guy to Twins fans. It's out least favorite time of year lately.

[FargoFanMan]

37 minutes ago, D.C Twins said:

I would love to hear from anyone at TD who thinks Rocco will be ever be a manager for an MLB team again. 

Nobody is waiting with bated breath to hire him away from us. 

Well, he’s a former player who has been in the league since he was like 21-22. I’m positive he is highly respected around the league which is why he got the job in the first place. If he gets fired he’ll absolutely catch on as a coach somewhere next year and maybe in a few years be up for a manager position. It happens to lots of managers. He’s not completely inept no matter what people here think. He’s a good baseball guy. Just maybe not for this team.

[FargoFanMan]

50 minutes ago, D.C Twins said:

 'I don't think a manager has a determinative impact on player performance, one way or another.'

....yeah, history has clearly shown that leadership is not needed 

🤭

Try to tell that to Aaron Gleeman.