Is Baldelli the worst Manager in Twins/Senators history?

[TopTwinsFan]

On the two day anniversary of the worst managing job I have seen in 40 years of watching baseball, the loss Baldelli crafted Saturday night in KC, I ask:

Is Baldelli the worst manager in Twins/Senators history?

As someone who has watched thousands of Twins game it's a no doubter;

1. Tom Kelly 

2. Ron Gardenhire

3. Paul Molitor

4. Rocco Baldelli 

Someone suggested Ray Miller when I brought this up on another post but since Baldellis skills or lack there off have been on full display it is a perfect time to ask. I'm also curious if anyone old timers remember: Did the Sens or pre-Kelly Twins have any managers as poor as Rocco?

[TopTwinsFan]

The have lost 8-2 the last two games cumulatively and I didn't watch a second of either game despite being the Top Twins Fan. Not cuz I don't love my Twins, but because seeing my guys get out in a position to fail is too much for my heart. If I feel that way as a guy who loves baseball with a passion, how do the guys in the clubhouse feel. It how teams give up on a manager. 

It started the night Rocco insisted Maki leave Alcala in to give up 5 runs. You could see Maki in the dugout seemingly begging Rocco to take Alcala out to no avail. The Twins have been a poor team since.

Approximately two weeks later Rocco has the worst managed game I have ever witnessed on Saturday the 7th. Then blows up his team for not trying hard enough or something. Imagine how Ober felt after that meeting. 

Leadership matters. Rocco is failing the Twins and it's fans.

TD staff, please don't delete this thread or merge it into oblivion. Thank you. 

[Irishman]

TopTwinFan, I agree with you.   

Rocco is the worst manager in Twins history ever.    He fails us.  We don't deserve this!   

 

[Doctor Wu]

It's been a very frustrating season, but I'm not fully onboard the anti-Rocco wagon. Plenty of other problems besides his sometimes questionable decisions. Compared to other MLB teams, the Twins seem to have had much less turnover in the role of manager. Thinking back a few decades, I recall Bill Rigney. I think he won the division one year, but his tenure didn't last too long. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

This is an absolutely ridiculous premise. The Senators had like 50 losing seasons in a row.

[Rick Blaine]

1 hour ago, Doctor Wu said:

It's been a very frustrating season, but I'm not fully onboard the anti-Rocco wagon. Plenty of other problems besides his sometimes questionable decisions. Compared to other MLB teams, the Twins seem to have had much less turnover in the role of manager. Thinking back a few decades, I recall Bill Rigney. I think he won the division one year, but his tenure didn't last too long. 

Rigney wasn't a bad manager, in fact he came with a strong resume. He won the division in 1970, despite losing Rod Carew early in the season to injury. It did help that Harmon Killebrew, Tony Olivia and Jim Perry all had career years. In 1971, those three all seemed to age quickly. 

The biggest knock on Rigney was he replaced popular Billy Martin, who won the division in 1969 with virtually the same team as 1970.  Martin and Calvin Griffith's feud was legendary in Twins territory.  Martin went to have a very successful managerial career that didn't help Rigney's popularity. 

[Rick Blaine]

2 minutes ago, Rick Blaine said:

Rigney wasn't a bad manager, in fact he came with a strong resume. He won the division in 1970, despite losing Rod Carew early in the season to injury. It did help that Harmon Killebrew, Tony Olivia and Jim Perry all had career years. In 1971, those three all seemed to age quickly. 

The biggest knock on Rigney was he replaced popular Billy Martin, who won the division in 1969 with virtually the same team as 1970.  Martin and Calvin Griffith's feud was legendary in Twins territory.  Martin went to have a very successful managerial career that didn't help Rigney's popularity. 

Note Oliva did win the batting title in 1971, his "aging" was accelerated by a knee injury that year. 

[Rick Blaine]

27 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This is an absolutely ridiculous premise. The Senators had like 50 losing seasons in a row.

True, but I think most on TD only remember the four Twins managers in their lifetime. 

Cookie Lavagetto, the Twins first manager in 61, who only lasted a half season, wins the best name contest - hands down. 

[USAFChief]

10 hours ago, TopTwinsFan said:

On the two day anniversary of the worst managing job I have seen in 40 years of watching baseball, the loss Baldelli crafted Saturday night in KC, I ask:

Is Baldelli the worst manager in Twins/Senators history?

As someone who has watched thousands of Twins game it's a no doubter;

1. Tom Kelly 

2. Ron Gardenhire

3. Paul Molitor

4. Rocco Baldelli 

Someone suggested Ray Miller when I brought this up on another post but since Baldellis skills or lack there off have been on full display it is a perfect time to ask. I'm also curious if anyone old timers remember: Did the Sens or pre-Kelly Twins have any managers as poor as Rocco?

Bone to pick: Rocco's worst managing job wasn't Saturday in KC.

Three weeks ago in Texas Rocco sat on his hands watching Jorge Alcala turn a 4-0 7th inning lead into a 5-4 deficit. With a three or so minute delay included while Texas ballpark security searched for Matt Wallner's glove over the left field fence. 

As bad as removing Ober was, that was worse. Way worse.

And if you believe in momentum, or anything like it, that's the point at which this current collapse started.

 

 

[Twodogs]

I think comparing Rocco to almost any of the other managers with maybe the exception of Molitor is apples to oranges.  I mean, if time travel were a thing and you could bring Billy Martin forward in time and have him managing today's Twins do you really think he'd give a crap what Falvey or anyone else in the front office thought?  Do you think even one of his on field decisions would be influenced by someone in the front office.  I mean he'd probably do the exact opposite if Falvey told him to play or sit some guy.  I still think Rocco is a microcosm of the front office, I mean I'm sure Rocco has some leeway to make in game decisions, but I really believe the big picture is all run by the front office.  Do you think TK would have given two spits what someone in the front office thought about when he should pull a pitcher or some other on field decision?  So I think Rocco could be fired and he's just be replaced by another Rocco.  Also trying to compare Rocco to guys who had more autonomy as far as decision making probably isn't completely fair to Rocco.  I'm not a Rocco fan, but I do see the differences between the different eras.

[Brock Beauchamp]

8 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Three weeks ago in Texas Rocco sat on his hands watching Jorge Alcala turn a 4-0 7th inning lead into a 5-4 deficit. With a three or so minute delay included while Texas ballpark security searched for Matt Wallner's glove over the left field fence. 

This isn't accurate. From the time Alcala threw his first pitch until the game was tied 4-4, less than five minutes had passed. Baldelli had Jax warming up about two minutes after Alcala threw his first pitch, which means Jax had been warming up for maybe three minutes, tops.

You can't warm up a pitcher and get him on the mound that quickly. 

[USAFChief]

19 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This isn't accurate. From the time Alcala threw his first pitch until the game was tied 4-4, less than five minutes had passed. Baldelli had Jax warming up about two minutes after Alcala threw his first pitch, which means Jax had been warming up for maybe three minutes, tops.

You can't warm up a pitcher and get him on the mound that quickly. 

Nonconcur. 

A MLB manager has time to warm up a pitcher in the space of the 3 batter minimum if he chooses to do so. It happens all the time. One sauntering trip to the mound is enough. 

And in this case, THERE WAS A LENGTHY DELAY while they searched for Wallner's glove after the FIRST dinger.

In any case, a MLB manager who can't figure out how to slow the game enough to allow for a reliever to warm, which doesn't take that long, deserves to be fired fir that alone. 

He sat on his *** by his own choosing, not because events prevented anything else.

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Nonconcur. 

A MLB manager has time to warm up a pitcher in the space of the 3 batter minimum if he chooses to do so. It happens all the time. One sauntering trip to the mound is enough. 

And in this case, THERE WAS A LENGTHY DELAY while they searched for Wallner's glove after the FIRST dinger.

In any case, a MLB manager who can't figure out how to slow the game enough to allow for a reliever to warm, which doesn't take that long, deserves to be fired fir that alone. 

He sat on his *** by his own choosing, not because events prevented anything else.

I literally gave you the receipts. He had a pitcher warming almost immediately. And within another 100-ish seconds, the game was tied.

When did we start blaming the manager every time a player goes out there and sucks? If Baldelli watched Alcala run up three ball counts over and over, maybe you have a point. But when you're pulling triggers quickly, it's the player's fault for lighting himself on fire.

[USAFChief]

13 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I literally gave you the receipts. He had a pitcher warming almost immediately. And within another 100-ish seconds, the game was tied.

When did we start blaming the manager every time a player goes out there and sucks? If Baldelli watched Alcala run up three ball counts over and over, maybe you have a point. But when you're pulling triggers quickly, it's the player's fault for lighting himself on fire.

MANAGE.

It's the job description. 

Rather than sit on your *** and watch the thing burn down, MANAGE. "Nothing he could do" is simply more excuse making for Rocco.

I'm not excusing Alcala. He was immediately awful. 

Which is WHY a MLB manager has to find a way to get him out of the game before he gives up FIVE runs. FIVE.

Shouldn't have happened. Didn't need to happen. 

Entirely on Rocco that it DID happen.

These are managerial decisions. They gave consequences. 

At the least defend the decisions.

"Nothing he could do" is lame.

[TheLeviathan]

This thread has exactly the kind of nuanced, insightful, factual discourse you'd expect.

TD has been taken over by trolls.

[Parfigliano]

3 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This is an absolutely ridiculous premise. The Senators had like 50 losing seasons in a row.

But they lost with an elegant style and understated grace.

[cHawk]

Malachi Kittridge and Patsy Donovan would both like a word.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Twodogs said:

I mean, if time travel were a thing and you could bring Billy Martin forward in time and have him managing today's Twins do you really think he'd give a crap what Falvey or anyone else in the front office thought?  

Billy Martin would lose a modern clubhouse in less than an hour.

[Craig Arko]

11 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Billy Martin would lose a modern clubhouse in less than an hour.

If he sobered up that long.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

Two things are true...

He isn't the worst manager in team history.

He's not a good manager.

[TopTwinsFan]

4 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This is an absolutely ridiculous premise. The Senators had like 50 losing seasons in a row.

The Twins were horrendous most of the nineties, but in my opinion more fun to watch. A manager who gets the most out of his players like Kelly who puts their players in a position to win and succeed is so much more fun than the opposite - Baldiball. 

[TopTwinsFan]

Baldellis lifetime record is far superior to Kelly's. Doesn't anyone think that makes Rocco a better manager?

[TopTwinsFan]

12 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

If he sobered up that long.

He's before my time, but it's fun to think of Martin in a modern clubhouse.

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 minutes ago, TopTwinsFan said:

The Twins were horrendous most of the nineties, but in my opinion more fun to watch. A manager who gets the most out of his players like Kelly who puts their players in a position to win and succeed is so much more fun than the opposite - Baldiball. 

Yes, it was way more fun watching teams be out of it by June 1st instead of the travesty we see now, a team holding a playoff position on September 10th.

[DJL44]

8 minutes ago, TopTwinsFan said:

The Twins were horrendous most of the nineties, but in my opinion more fun to watch. A manager who gets the most out of his players like Kelly who puts their players in a position to win and succeed is so much more fun than the opposite - Baldiball. 

No, Frankie Rodriguez and Rich Becker were irritating as hell to watch.

[Aggies7]

45 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Billy Martin would lose a modern clubhouse in less than an hour.

As with most things, managers should fall somewhere in the middle between raging, drunk, yelling guy and “you can take BP or not. If you want. Maybe”.

I don’t think laissez faire managing works in anything. Business world, parenting, teaching, and certainly the coaching world.
 

And nowadays, guys are absolutely not going to respond to a Mike Zimmer type either. Coaches at the youth and high school level (even college) are not allowed to be “old school”, so I doubt if they’d be ok with it at the professional level. Coaches were largely insane “back in my day”, and now we’ve tried to remedy that by going too far the other way, where any criticism is unwarranted.

My opinion, you don’t need to be a hard*** to your team nor do you need to be their buddy. Personally I think the whole organization is a little too laid back in some of their approaches and I think it fosters an environment where toughness is lacking. Also I don’t think t’s a coincidence that the twins are generally terrible at fundamentals either 

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

This thread has exactly the kind of nuanced, insightful, factual discourse you'd expect.

 

You could, just spitball'n here, provide some.

[TopTwinsFan]

17 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yes, it was way more fun watching teams be out of it by June 1st instead of the travesty we see now, a team holding a playoff position on September 10th.

No, if a team has playoff caliber talent, I want them to get the most out of it. You know like winning a world series as Kelly did- twice.

Does anyone really think Baldelli is getting the most out of this club?

The team holds a playoff spot despite him, not because of him. 

[DJL44]

4 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

“you can take BP or not. If you want. Maybe”.

I don’t think laissez faire managing works in anything. Business world, parenting, teaching, and certainly the coaching world.

I don't think Rocco is extreme to that end. I hear quotes all the time about how the coaches are working with players on hitting, pitching, etc. They're working while they're at the ballpark. I wonder if they're always working on the right things. The prep work ahead of games is an area where I think Rocco does fine although the players may be spread too thin preparing to play multiple positions. There is only so much time in the day. You can't prep to play every position on the field.

I really hope they don't fire Rocco and promote Toby Gardenhire. The rookies have not been prepared to succeed in the field. That preparation should be happening in the minor leagues so they're ready for game situations when they get to the majors.

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 minutes ago, TopTwinsFan said:

No, if a team has playoff caliber talent, I want them to get the most out of it. You know like winning a world series as Kelly did- twice.

Does anyone really think Baldelli is getting the most out of this club?

The team holds a playoff spot despite him, not because of him. 

Eh, I disagree. I think Baldelli mostly does a good job of keeping guys motivated and running a clubhouse. I don't particularly care for his in-game decisions.

Tom Kelly won a World Series in 1991. By 1993, the Twins sucked and mostly continued to suck until the 2000s (aka. the rest of the 90s).

Those 90s teams were trash and absolutely a burden to watch. This team is frustrating, but still pretty good. I'll take the "pretty good" every time.