Royals 4, Twins 2: Bailey Ober's Brilliant Start Wasted by Bullpen Blow-Up

[Linehan]

Even if the bullpen had performed well and won the game, it is still a bad decision in the context of how Bailey was performing,where we are in the season and the importance of winning the game. He had retired 15 hitters in a row was averaging about 11 pitches per inning. Unless he complained to Rocco and asked to be taken out for some reason we are unaware of. I can find no justification for removing him from the game.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

8 minutes ago, Maybe Next Year said:

I’ll say it again- get rid of Baldelli, or should I say Baldummy.

No, you shouldn’t say that.

We have provided a little more leeway on this type of stuff lately but that could change at any moment, retroactively, without notice. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

18 minutes ago, Linehan said:

He had retired 15 hitters in a row was averaging about 11 pitches per inning. Unless he complained to Rocco and asked to be taken out for some reason we are unaware of. I can find no justification for removing him from the game.

Actually, it sounded like Ober wanted to stay in the game. 

I was listening on the radio. It’s always hard to tell on the radio but everyone here and on the radio seems unanimous that Ober was in full control. When even Chief says to leave the starter in… 🙂

The radio announcers said Ober was standing in the dugout in the top of the 8th, with his glove on, watching the Twins finish their at bat. Like he was going to come out to pitch the bottom of the 8th. Even though all the coaches had already patted him on the back signalling he was done.

Then when Duran came out for the bottom of the 8th, apparently Ober left the dugout and disappeared into the clubhouse.

Rocco has been saying someone needs to step up. Well, sounds like Ober was willing to be that guy tonight. To finish this thing or die trying. A “jump on my back, boys” type of moment. 

Didn’t happen.

[harmlessharmon]

Is it just me or has Duran picked up a Thielbar-esque quirk in his delivery more and more lately?  He doesn't raise the ball above his glove like Thielbar (and the purposeful meatball throwers at the Home Run Derby), but he's pulling the ball further out of his glove earlier than he used to.  He seems to have lost his control as well.

[h2oface]

17 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

Most closers do poorly when put in non save situations. Preparation is far different as closer, and should not be messed with.

Wasn't it Andrew Miller that became the new thing, fireman, pitch 1 to 4 innings in any game wherever the game was turning? And put out the fire? Close, hold. or come in the 4th. 2016-17. ALCS MVP 2016 for Cleveland and reliever of year in 2017. So it can happen, and it did for those two years, and then was tried by other teams and others pitchers for a while. A lot of people (here and elsewhere) would never do that. But it was an amazing two years that was out of the box with great success. Miller wasn't that good before or after, but for those two years, it was sure amazing, and brave to implement. I am glad Francona messed with that.

Duran is getting lots of contact no matter when he pitches, now. Seems to be getting lucky more than lights out in his saves, to me.

[chpettit19]

I didn't like the decision when they showed him in the dugout clearly telling Ober he was done, but let's not act like he pulled Ober for Richards or Okert. Rocco did what many have been calling for and showed a sense of urgency. He went to his 2 shutdown arms in a close game. Isn't the decision I'd have made, but Duran and Jax should be able to slam the door there. 

I didn't like the decision because Ober was cruising and was giving the pen a rest. Not having to use both Duran and Jax tonight would've been huge as they're going to likely keep playing close games since they can't score and being able to save at least one of them from throwing would be huge. If either throws Sunday he's out Monday since he'll have thrown 3 times in 4 days. Letting Ober go another saves you from that situation.

When they showed Rocco telling Ober I assumed it was Jax coming in. Bringing in Duran for the 8th is the decision I really can't see a defense for. Those 2 are supposed to be match-up proof guys. Duran is much better in save situations so I don't get why you'd use him in the 8th if you're planning on using both guys. If you don't trust Duran to face the top of that order the pen is in even worse shape than we thought. I am one who believes you don't need to always have a set 9th inning guy, but Duran's numbers are pretty clear that's when he's his best. Why mess with that? Jax is actually proof that some guys can be used in any inning and perform, so why not use him in the 8th and leave Duran in his 9th inning spot? 

This team's apparent approach of using "big picture," general trends to make decisions instead of using the data of their actual players is so frustrating. Maybe I'm wrong about that being their approach, but there are a lot of decisions they make that certainly make it look like that's their approach. The Duran decision tonight can be tossed in with their platooning for sure in the evidence for "we believe in 'baseball' trends not individual's trends."

[h2oface]

Before play on Sunday August 18, they were 70-53, and the best record in MLB was 73-50, with only 6 teams with a better W-L record. Baldelli has led the team to 76-66, 6-13 during the next short 3 weeks, worse than the 7-13 start of the season that had so many declaring here that the season was already over. Of course, he didn't play those games, but he made a bunch of decisions that didn't help, like pulling Ober tonight. Hopefully, all these rookie strangers can actually step up and perform next year. I really think anything that comes with the rest of the season is gravy, especially with the high dollar duo and Ryan and Stewart, et al, on the shelf. This team makes decisions (Lee) like they aren't ready for the show this year, both in the field and at the plate, and they aren't. I still think they will get in the playoffs, but get booted right out in the wild card series against Houston, NY, or Baltimore. And that is OK, now. Of course that is not want I want to see. That is the best that can happen with this manager, and what is left of this team. I gotta let emotion go after tonight, and accept it for what it.......... isn't. 

[knothole61]

Whew...what a night! My scrolling finger is hot from all of the vituperation in evidence after this latest fiasco of a loss. And, yes, I'd have left Ober in to start the 8th and lifted him after a first walk or hit in that frame. He was magnificent tonight; on the road and against a solid team.

I fall into a kind of diffident middle ground regarding the Twins' skipper. It's hard to argue with success, and clearly he's had some. And I also have to admit that he is better than most of the Twins' managers I have critiqued over the years: and that goes back to the days of Cookie Lavagetto and his .414 winning percentage. Having said that, I am also aware that he tends to infuriate me at times more than most any other in that long line of managers. It's akin to that line from The Who, "and he and Tommy were worlds apart,"  or the way that the high school "math guys" or the distance runners on the tra,ck team (especially the 10 K specialists) seemed to be living in different, far more rigid and statistical, universe than me.

I'll end with a needed, in my humble opinion, olive branch offering to the group. Despite the frustration of the last couple of weeks, (if the Twins lose tomorrow they will have lost 14 for the last 20-yes?) I feel it's important to remember that the folks who post the comments that drive you to distraction are in fact your brothers and sisters; members of a scarred yet still hopeful fraternity. I urge one and all to disagree without disrespect, and also to realize that we share a deep bond as we navigate both the sunlight and the shadows of this annual journey from spring to fall, and most often from hope to despair.

Win Twins! 

[Markdumont25]

I think Rocco is both overrated in some circles and underrated in others, meaning he probably averages out to an average manager overall.... But in game personnel moves (specifically overmanaging) is undoubtedly where he is weakest. You only have two reliable starters left in your rotation and a bullpen that has been shaky, when one of those starters is dominating with a manageable pitch count you don't take him out. Anything other than that is overthinking the situation. I think Rocco is overall decent, but this was a really frustrating and avoidable loss that I would pin mostly on him and his managerial decisions.

[howeda7]

5 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

Twins running on fumes and doing their best White Sox impression the past couple weeks. We’ll likely make the playoffs but it is hard to get too excited about it. Not a fun team to watch/follow right now. 

I would put their play-off odds at no better than 50/50. Only one of Seattle/Boston/Detroit has to get hot. The Twins won't win more than 85 games. 

[mikelink45]

5 hours ago, tampatwins said:

theres zero spark with this team - like no one in the clubhouse can get the team HYPED and ready to go to war. where's the intensity? Rocco sits around like a company's IT guy and puts in a new experimental iteration and thinks "how will this go today?" and hopes it pays off, and lately, it's been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.  Don't get too comfortable, since even .500 baseball the rest of the way could blow this playoff run. This team needs to WAKE UP. I still dont understand why ESPN has our playoff odds consistently 10% above the Royals, but I digress...

I would say that Wallner has been the spark but the rest are not following him.

[mikelink45]

This was the perfect set up for a complete game for Ober.  He has to be frustrated.  At 83 pitches he still had enough to keep rolling, but this team just has to use its RP and RP has not been what was expected at the beginning of the season.  Duran is off this year and I will leave it to all of you to figure out why, but he is not the lights out guy we have had in the past. 

Why did Farmer come in to replace Santana?  At the end of the game Santana's glove is too important to remove.  

I know we love PH, but Julien was finally having his kind of night and we PH Castro who went out (of course).

We should have had this game.  It is really looking bad.  We need to play some more sub 500 teams quickly. 

[Doctor Gast]

Quote

He continued to make contact in each at-bat and showed promise for being a solid big-league hitter

Good to hear, thank you, Sherry . 

[Doctor Gast]

Yes, Baldelli's management style is baffling. Last night was a good example of following the spreadsheet and not your heart. Not sticking with Ober, not following with Jax.

Baldelli has the potential to become a pretty good manager. If he was brought in as a bench coach under Molitor, they could potentially learn from each other. But this FO wants basically a "yes man" who follows the spreadsheets.

This kind of game takes out the little wind left in the sails. That plus other things cast this team adrift, endangered to have KC pass them for good & have either DET, BOS & even SEA to catch them, much less thinking about winning the division & having a successful postseason.

It all started this offseason with a great core but by messing with the chemistry, not trading for our real needs & doing fluff that did nothing to improve the team. that extended into the deadline. That sends the wrong message to the players.

[Doctor Wu]

8 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

Did Rocco make a poor decision? Probably but if we cannot score more than two runs or count on Jax and Duran to hold a two run lead then we are screwed anyways.

Yes, poor Rocco decisions aside, we need to put more runs across the plate to win these games. 

[William K Johnson]

Now the entire country knows that this team is a fraud.   Incompetent manager, leaky bullpen and little league defense.   I don't know what is worse, Brooks Lee's fielding or hitting?   And who is that guy impersonating Royce Lewis?   It's September, we are in a playoff hunt using the Saints outfield.    Why didn't Farmer go to second and Julien to first?   At least Julien has played first.   The Kevin Cash pitching philosophy works in Tampa because they have a strong bullpen.   We don't.  I know I will get blasted for this statement, but perhaps it would be best if Boston or Seattle grabs the third playoff spot to avoid us being embarrassed against the Yankees or Baltimore. 

[Werbellik]

8 hours ago, TopTwinsFan said:

This one hurt so much tonight that I might need to look into a therapy dog.

I boought me a 3lb  black pomeranian puppy  a couple weeks ago. My heart rate didn't  go up watching that game last night. I recommend it.

[Fezig]

9 hours ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

Not even talking about Duran vs. Jax in the 8th, can anyone please defend pulling Ober after 7??

1.  Pitch count?  84 pitches (he's thrown over 100 in starts before)

2.  Struggling?  Set down 15 in a row.

3.  Didn't want him to face the top of the order again?  I believe KC had 6-7-8 or 7-8-9 coming up....

4.  Hard contact?  One hit.  Literally ZERO hard contact.

5.  Rested bullpen?  Nope.  Tired bullpen.  Could've really used a day off.

Am I missing a reason???  Anyone?

You are absolutely correct. The headline to the story should not blame the relief pitcher. The manager (whose name I cannot say or I get scolded by the word police) is completely to blame for this loss. There isn't one top of the line pitcher in MLB who would want to play for the Mgr (whose name I cannot say) of this squad. 

In 1984 the Twins choked a big lead (Viola and Gaetti) while contending and never regained their mojo until 1987. This is the game people will point to should they fail to make the playoffs. 

[Werbellik]

31 minutes ago, William K Johnson said:

Now the entire country knows that this team is a fraud.   Incompetent manager, leaky bullpen and little league defense.   I don't know what is worse, Brooks Lee's fielding or hitting?   And who is that guy impersonating Royce Lewis?   It's September, we are in a playoff hunt using the Saints outfield.    Why didn't Farmer go to second and Julien to first?   At least Julien has played first.   The Kevin Cash pitching philosophy works in Tampa because they have a strong bullpen.   We don't.  I know I will get blasted for this statement, but perhaps it would be best if Boston or Seattle grabs the third playoff spot to avoid us being embarrassed against the Yankees or Baltimore. 

The 3rd wildcard plays the division winner with the worst record in the 1st round. It looks like the Astros would be the team embarrassing us

[Hubie29]

6 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I didn't like the decision when they showed him in the dugout clearly telling Ober he was done, but let's not act like he pulled Ober for Richards or Okert. Rocco did what many have been calling for and showed a sense of urgency. He went to his 2 shutdown arms in a close game. Isn't the decision I'd have made, but Duran and Jax should be able to slam the door there. 

I didn't like the decision because Ober was cruising and was giving the pen a rest. Not having to use both Duran and Jax tonight would've been huge as they're going to likely keep playing close games since they can't score and being able to save at least one of them from throwing would be huge. If either throws Sunday he's out Monday since he'll have thrown 3 times in 4 days. Letting Ober go another saves you from that situation.

When they showed Rocco telling Ober I assumed it was Jax coming in. Bringing in Duran for the 8th is the decision I really can't see a defense for. Those 2 are supposed to be match-up proof guys. Duran is much better in save situations so I don't get why you'd use him in the 8th if you're planning on using both guys. If you don't trust Duran to face the top of that order the pen is in even worse shape than we thought. I am one who believes you don't need to always have a set 9th inning guy, but Duran's numbers are pretty clear that's when he's his best. Why mess with that? Jax is actually proof that some guys can be used in any inning and perform, so why not use him in the 8th and leave Duran in his 9th inning spot? 

This team's apparent approach of using "big picture," general trends to make decisions instead of using the data of their actual players is so frustrating. Maybe I'm wrong about that being their approach, but there are a lot of decisions they make that certainly make it look like that's their approach. The Duran decision tonight can be tossed in with their platooning for sure in the evidence for "we believe in 'baseball' trends not individual's trends."

Rocco might have Jax in Fantasy and needed a save.  Just saying...

[1985Fan]

I thought there was hope for Rocco when lately he has let Wallner, Julien, and Larnach hit against LHP. But no, he has to do something to pull defeat from the jaws of victory. His late inning management is terrible, I don’t care what the stats say. 
If the heavens somehow aligned and miracles (it would take multiple miracles) happened to get the Twins into game 7 of the WS, there is no way a complete 10-inning game 7 happens. Think about the decision Tom Kelly made there and that is the difference between a great manager and Baldelli. 
 

[Karbo]

9 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

I count 4 candidates for loss of the year in the last 3 weeks.

The numbers do not bear out using Jax as the closer and Duran as set up. Each has excelled in their usual role and struggled how they were used tonight. I don’t understand swapping them. 
 

But regardless, I’ll take the guy who set down 15 in a row with 84 pitches. It’s madness to argue he should have been removed from the game.

I don't know why Ober got pulled. I wonder if anyone can gather the stats to show how Duran has done in the 9th inning of save chances vs. earlier in the games?

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, Doctor Wu said:

Yes, poor Rocco decisions aside, we need to put more runs across the plate to win these games. 

IF they have just 3 runs, Ober goes out in the 8th. Can’t risk a loud drive nor a walk in a 2 run game with a guy that may be tiring somewhat.

 A reliever starting an inning with a clean slate is a much better situation than coming in with a guy on first and having the to g run in the box to start.

While I understand Rocco’s reasoning to try and protect Duran after he got lit up by the Top of the K.C. order not long ago, I think it’s best to leave the back end duo in proper sequence so they feel comfortable in specific roles.

The managing aside, and the meager offense set aside as well, this one is squarely on the shoulders of Duran! He continually comes in and tries to use his “pitch mix” to dazzle. He routinely pitches backwards - starting hitters with a curveball out of the zone, just to “surprise” the batter. He gets behind and is then overly excited and can’t locate his fastball. He’s pitching himself into jams routinely. He throws 100-102…..,,get your fastball over and pitch off that. Guys hunt his curve and splitter because they don’t think they can hit his fastball.

Players gotta perform …..Baldelli didn’t give up hit off splitter - HBP with a curve, ahead in the count - and then a hung splitter that’s thigh high!…………can’t expect Jax to come in and wave a wand - he got 2 outs on 8 pitches.

Tough to watch Royals get to 63-7 when they give up 2 runs or less……….they got it done in a desperate situation………they’re pretty good even without their best RBI guy.

[Whitey333]

Not surprised at all that Rocco took out Ober.  Should he have?  Of course not.  It was another in a growing list of questionable, stupid baseball decision.  He continually proves he has very little baseball sense.  

Kris Atteberry is getting so awful to listen to.  Thank goodness Perkins was there to bail out his idiotic comments.  Again, trying to blame game on umpiring and injuries.  Yes we have injuries and yes Rocco made a poor decision and taking out Ober.  Yes fielding didn't help in the 8th inning.  But also you count on Duran and Jax.  They both blew it!!  Rocco blew it!!  Again!! This team is a sinking ship with a manager with no clue.

[Blyleven2011]

A deflating gutless defeat  , the manager needs to find ways to win with the players he has , he is stubborn as a mule and won'tor can't improvise  ...

HE has all the answers on his spread sheets but continues to fail the test ...

[DJL44]

9 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

Most closers do poorly when put in non save situations. Preparation is far different as closer, and should not be messed with.

What's different? Do closers do backflips before entering the game but 8th inning pitchers do cartwheels?

This is one of those areas where mental toughness actually does matter. If you can prepare for the inning when 9 is on the scoreboard but not when 8 is on the scoreboard and you lose all confidence and determination, then you aren't a mentally tough pitcher. Same goes for pitchers who can pitch when that number is an 8 but not when it is a 9.

Rocco was too clever by half last night. He wouldn't be getting roasted here if Duran had fallen apart in the 9th instead of the 8th. We won't know but it's entirely possible that the Royals were ready for Duran and would have blown him up in the 9th if Ober or Jax pitches a scoreless 8th inning.

[Parfigliano]

4 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

This was the perfect set up for a complete game for Ober.  He has to be frustrated.  At 83 pitches he still had enough to keep rolling, but this team just has to use its RP and RP has not been what was expected at the beginning of the season.  Duran is off this year and I will leave it to all of you to figure out why, but he is not the lights out guy we have had in the past. 

Why did Farmer come in to replace Santana?  At the end of the game Santana's glove is too important to remove.  

I know we love PH, but Julien was finally having his kind of night and we PH Castro who went out (of course).

We should have had this game.  It is really looking bad.  We need to play some more sub 500 teams quickly. 

Santana came out do to illness not injury.

Julien being PH for when he already had 2 hits was due to Rocco's analytics aversion to LH v. LHP.

 

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, Werbellik said:

The 3rd wildcard plays the division winner with the worst record in the 1st round. It looks like the Astros would be the team embarrassing us

Rather play the Astro's then NYY.  NYY is in their heads so deep its gonna take an exorcist to pry them out.

[JD-TWINS]

10 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

What's different? Do closers do backflips before entering the game but 8th inning pitchers do cartwheels?

This is one of those areas where mental toughness actually does matter. If you can prepare for the inning when 9 is on the scoreboard but not when 8 is on the scoreboard and you lose all confidence and determination, then you aren't a mentally tough pitcher. Same goes for pitchers who can pitch when that number is an 8 but not when it is a 9.

Rocco was too clever by half last night. He wouldn't be getting roasted here if Duran had fallen apart in the 9th instead of the 8th. We won't know but it's entirely possible that the Royals were ready for Duran and would have blown him up in the 9th if Ober or Jax pitches a scoreless 8th inning.

Agreed! Player (Duran’s) mental toughness is what was tested. 2 run lead, get 3 outs whether in 8th against bottom of line-up or in 9th against whoever. Execute pitches!!!

I know you didn’t elude to this, but how can Jax be part of the problem at all? He comes into a situation with flames all around him and gets a chopper to SS that gets butchered by two guys (tough play!! probably just an infield hit) and a run scores. He got 2 outs on 8 pitches.

[Parfigliano]

10 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

What's different? Do closers do backflips before entering the game but 8th inning pitchers do cartwheels?

This is one of those areas where mental toughness actually does matter. If you can prepare for the inning when 9 is on the scoreboard but not when 8 is on the scoreboard and you lose all confidence and determination, then you aren't a mentally tough pitcher. Same goes for pitchers who can pitch when that number is an 8 but not when it is a 9.

Rocco was too clever by half last night. He wouldn't be getting roasted here if Duran had fallen apart in the 9th instead of the 8th. We won't know but it's entirely possible that the Royals were ready for Duran and would have blown him up in the 9th if Ober or Jax pitches a scoreless 8th inning.

Before entering the game closers do the cartwheels.  Just use  the mnemonic "CC" closers cartwheels for future reference.