The Manuel Margot Acquisition Has Been a Disaster

[RpR]

6 minutes ago, AWOLNATION_11 said:

Is Jordan Luplow available? 

[DJL44]

51 minutes ago, Matthew Trueblood said:

Do they have sufficient surplus somewhere to make a need-for-need trade with someone who might have a surplus of righty outfield bats? Where would they trade from to upgrade that role on the roster? Maybe they could get someone interested in a particular high-minors arm?

They have a bunch of bullpen depth. Staumont would be in the majors on some teams.

[jmlease1]

3 minutes ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

In hindsight, they should have waited out MAT a bit longer - IIRC, he signed a couple of days after the Margot trade and it was for $4MM. Yes, that's about $1.5MM more and maybe that's the answer...

You also don't know if pride would get in the way there, which we've seen in pro sports more than a few times. Players have taken less to go to a new team rather than take a pay cut from their current one. And that's just pride effing with you, but it happens. Still a lot of ego in pro sports.

[DJL44]

8 minutes ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

In hindsight, they should have waited out MAT a bit longer - IIRC, he signed a couple of days after the Margot trade 

MAT also had more potential for playing time in Pittsburgh. He's a starter there, not a backup.

[jorgenswest]

I don’t think having so many short side platoon players is a sound strategy. A lefty or two in the line up against a left handed pitcher doesn’t hurt and may actually be a good thing. It doesn’t hurt because they likely won’t face that starter three times. They can be placed in the lineup batting 6th and 9th making it more difficult to target a reliever at a part in the order. The pitch mix changes for a pitcher and maybe gets them off rhythm which could help the right handed bat after the left handed bat. In the winter they really needed an everyday bat or at least a bat to relieve Santana of starting against every right handed pitcher.

Buxton could be back after the Toronto series. I think Martin helps the team more. If Buxton is out long term I think they need to give Rodriguez a shot. It won’t hurt his development if he struggles. Play him in centerfield and bat him 9th. 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

5 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

MAT also had more potential for playing time in Pittsburgh. He's a starter there, not a backup.

Fair point.

[farmerguychris]

Yes, this move did not go as planned.  Poor scouting on our part I would expect where the blame should go.  Would anyone give us even an oft injured journeyman AAAA level player for him?  I would think not, but maybe someone needs some depth?

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

Margot has been awful but at least the trade as a whole has been a plus so far.

Is that you, Falvey?

[USAFChief]

Pro tip: if two other teams are willing, eager even, to pay a player to play for you, examine the player carefully.

[Patzky]

1 hour ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

The most frustrating part is that he cannot even do what the Twins brought him in for which is to play CF.  As always, they will probably keep him way too long.  This year's Joey Gallo?

Don't sully the Springtime Gallo Vintage 2023 by saying that.

[USAFChief]

Blame the front office for Margot being on the roster.

Blame the manager for using him when  not necessary. 

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

20 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Is that you, Falvey?

Quite desperate to make this dig at me, eh?

Doncon is outperforming Miller so far, particularly in that outside of a 3-game stretch where he hit 4 of his 5 HR Miller has a .190/.310/.274 slash line (.584 OPS) on the year. I'm just commenting on their performance this year. Gold glove defense in A ball will only take you so far.  

Even before the trade, just looking at prospect rankings had this in the Twins favor. A top 10-15 prospect from the Dodgers org for a ~20th or lower Twins prospect. 

[Linus]

What comes to my mind is that in 8 years Falvine haven’t developed a right handed hitting outfielder good enough to forego Margot. (Did you see what I did there 😂)

[Road trip]

Yes, Margot is part of the problem.  If he played less he would be less of a problem, but frankly he doesn't offer much under any circumstances.  So it is mildly fixable if his usage is limited.

The good news is that Margot is only a part time platoon problem.  In my mind the bigger problem remains that Santana is playing every fricking day.  Even with his recent "hot" streak in April, Santana is "hitting" .148/.250/.250 vs right handed pitching.  That's unplayable at 1B, no matter how good his glove is (and he already has 3 errors at 1b).  Oh, and as feared, he's a single PA short of leading the Twins in plate appearances.  If anyone needs a platoon partner, its Santana.

 

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

9 minutes ago, Road trip said:

The good news is that Margot is only a part time platoon problem.  In my mind the bigger problem remains that Santana is playing every fricking day.  Even with his recent "hot" streak in April, Santana is "hitting" .148/.250/.250 vs right handed pitching.  That's unplayable at 1B, no matter how good his glove is (and he already has 3 errors at 1b).  Oh, and as feared, he's a single PA short of leading the Twins in plate appearances.  If anyone needs a platoon partner, its Santana.

It's really a shame Kirilloff has fallen off after his hot start to the year. I don't particularly care to play him in LF anyway, and Santana should never have been penciled into the starting role vs RHP - should never have been close to that role, really.

Before the season I would have hoped that Yunior Severino would have been ready to be that left-handed 1B if need be, but outside of improving his walk & strikeout rates he's had a dreadful start to the year. Not sure there's anyone in the system right now that could fill that hole.

[Riverbrian]

48 minutes ago, Road trip said:

Yes, Margot is part of the problem.  If he played less he would be less of a problem, but frankly he doesn't offer much under any circumstances.  So it is mildly fixable if his usage is limited.

The good news is that Margot is only a part time platoon problem.  In my mind the bigger problem remains that Santana is playing every fricking day.  Even with his recent "hot" streak in April, Santana is "hitting" .148/.250/.250 vs right handed pitching.  That's unplayable at 1B, no matter how good his glove is (and he already has 3 errors at 1b).  Oh, and as feared, he's a single PA short of leading the Twins in plate appearances.  If anyone needs a platoon partner, its Santana.

 

Agreed but here is the problem. Wasting a roster spot on a player whose problem is fixable by not playing them is a waste of a roster spot.

Buxton and Lewis are on the Disabled List... Correa and Kepler have spent time on the disabled list. More will be hitting the disabled list in the future.  

I don't expect Margot to remain at these miserable levels all year... I expect him to be better but still not good enough when he does. 

As for limiting to him to left handed pitchers so the camera catches his better side when taking that photo. 

He currently has 36 AB's vs Right Handers and 28 vs Left Handers.  That predictably ain't working so good.

 

[USAFChief]

2 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

He currently has 36 AB's vs Right Handers and 28 vs Left Handers.  That predictably ain't working so good.

 

You're not being fair to Rocco here, Bri.

I mean, when you PH Margot for a LHed hitter in the 5th inning, who could possibly forsee that lineup spot coming up to hit again--maybe twice even--later in the game? And against a RH reliever, no less?

[$tryf4Life]

He doesn’t even pass the eye test. He looks replaceable by an average player. Twins should buck to trend of hanging onto vets for too long and send him packing. Sends a weird message to the clubhouse otherwise. Swallow the pride and cut bait on a terrible offseason acquisition. Contribute or be removed. 

[Riverbrian]

I apologize to everyone for being a broken record on this but I think it's important for everyone to understand how the Twins set up the roster and why Margot would have been someone they went after. 

We came out of spring training healthy. The roster was clearly set with the balance necessary to platoon 3 spots. In order to platoon 3 spots... it requires 6 players and three of those players have to be designated short side players. With two catchers... That leaves 5 players who will not be platooned. 

5 Players not Platooned

Correa

Buxton

Lewis

Kepler

Santana (or Castro) Some Claim Santana was brought in for short side... if that's the case... Castro is the 5th guy. I personally don't think Castro was the planned 5th non-platoon player. 

3 Platoon players - Long Side

Julien

Kirilloff

Wallner

3 Platoon players - Short Side

Farmer

Margot

Castro (or Santana)

Catchers

Jeffers

Vazquez

This roster looks pretty until the injuries happen. It all makes sense providing nobody ever gets hurt. 

Once the injuries happen... those short siders have to hit right handers. 

Injury's always happen. 

They wouldn't be short siders if they could hit right handers. 

Margot

RH - 36 AB's

LH - 28 AB's

Farmer

RH - 41 AB's

LH - 23 AB's

Castro

RH - 93 AB's

LH - 25 AB's 

And just in case Santana was brought in to be a short side dude... I don't think he was.

Santana

RH - 88 AB's

LH - 28 AB's

This is the first year that the Twins have gone ALL IN with this Right/Left thing. They used to just have an odd Garlick type guy hanging around. 

They over committed to it and now guys who don't hit right handers very well... will have to face them and it isn't even nightmare level.

If we lose two left handed long side platoon guys at the same time... that's the nightmare scenerio.  

I don't think it was good strategy.  

 

  

 

 

[Riverbrian]

45 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

You're not being fair to Rocco here, Bri.

I mean, when you PH Margot for a LHed hitter in the 5th inning, who could possibly forsee that lineup spot coming up to hit again--maybe twice even--later in the game? And against a RH reliever, no less?

I know... That is a tough call for any manager... and... and... on top of that... Who could possibly predict that the AB in the ninth  would be more desperate or important than that AB in the 5th. 

Hindsight is 20/20. 

 

[sampleSizeOfOne]

The article (title) sounded like it was going to analyze the acquisition. Alas, i was too lazy to do more than skim.

 

How are the the relevant prospects doing? Am i already missing Noah Miller that much more than the new fellow?

 

Or is the new fellow making up for all of this already?

 

Hope Margot turns a corner sooner, Especially if he does so frequently as he advances to a new base.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

51 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Buxton and Lewis are on the Disabled List... Correa and Kepler have spent time on the disabled list. More will be hitting the disabled list in the future.  

No snark intended, but they're just injured not disabled.

[ashbury]

9 minutes ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

No snark intended, but they're just injured not disabled.

Oh great. Another tangent about Buxton is about to launch.  😀

[IndianaTwin]

54 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Oh great. Another tangent about Buxton is about to launch.  😀

I'm not sure if this is what @CCHOF5yearstoolate, was saying, but I read it as a gentle encouragement regarding the name of the list that people are put on if they are unable to play because of injury. If that wasn't what was intended, I'll offer that perspective instead. I don't want to highjack this thread, since it's about Margot, but I'm glad to have PM conversation on the topic if that's helpful.

Regarding the name change from "disabled" to "injured" list, here's an article that I found useful: https://www.twinkietown.com/2019/2/9/18216976/mlb-changing-disabled-list-to-injured-list-is-a-long-overdue-move-twins-mn#:~:text=The move came after disability,being unable to play sports. 

It's written from the perspective of a person who is "disabled" rather than "injured." As the father of a person with cerebral palsy, the husband of a special education teacher and a board member of a disabilities awareness committee, I can relate to where the author is coming from. 

[nicksaviking]

4 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Trade for Pham..... That's what I would do. 

I'm done with these bottom tier vets. He's an inconsistent hitter too and I don't put much weight on 10 games with the White Sox.

[nicksaviking]

5 hours ago, Matthew Trueblood said:

I think the key thing is, they clearly don't have a good alternative to Margot in house at the moment. (Keirsey truthers, I see you. I just think you're wrong.) 

Probably, but he costs nothing to try him out and unlike Margot, he can be optioned any time the team wants to pull the plug on him.

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, sampleSizeOfOne said:

The article (title) sounded like it was going to analyze the acquisition. Alas, i was too lazy to do more than skim.

 

How are the the relevant prospects doing? Am i already missing Noah Miller that much more than the new fellow?

 

Or is the new fellow making up for all of this already?

 

Hope Margot turns a corner sooner, Especially if he does so frequently as he advances to a new base.

too soon to tell; Miller is currently hitting better than he ever has in his professional career, and I'm sure he's still playing excellent defense. Doncon is hitting a bit more (and better than he ever has since his very first pro year at 17 in the Dominican Summer League), but is a lesser defender (though hardly a butcher), and seems destined for 3B. We'll see how they land at the end of the season.

Miller's numbers are a bit skewed from some out-sized success from the right side of the plate this season that seems unsustainable (his numbers from the left side track more like his career: low contact, decent patience, no pop). Doncon has shown much better power this season, so we'll see if that's sustainable for him; he is repeating a level but is still only 20, so it's hardly out of line for A-ball.

[DocBauer]

I was torn between a CF option and just a RH BAT. I was big on Duvall...pretty neutral career splits...or Pham, or a couple other guys. I leaned towards the BAT with Castro, Martin, Helman, and Keirsey all available for CF to some degree. When the FO went for defense and speed instead, I was OK with that decision.

Just a couple years ago Margot was a legitimate plus CF. He's been solid against LHP and a little under league average overall for his career, but not bad. Actually, he is a better "hitter" and OB% bat than Taylor, but less power.

Again, initially, the move made some solid sense, even if it wasn't necessarily the move I would have made. And really, it's pretty silly to dump a veteran ballplayer after 1 month, even if it's been a brutal month. He could turn back in to the player he's previously been and we'll all forget about this OP.

But right now, just watching him in the field and at the plate, he looks slow and utterly lost. I don't think he should be gone today. But he's been so bad so far with no positive signs, I think his removal has to be a consideration come June 1st. 

Keirsey is on the rise, younger, a terrific CF with some pop and speed. Can he hit ML pitching? We won't know until he tries. And I don't care at this point if he's a RH bat or not. Especially since roughly 75% of pitchers are RH anyway. Honestly, at this point, could he do any worse?

Hey, I still have hopes for Helman as well. And maybe it's Wallner, ready to go and return, who is the best option. But if Margot doesn't turn it around, a decision is going to have to be made for the good of the team. Right now, Margot's only function is to balance the roster 13/13 for a total of 26 men.

 

[Danchat]

It was an uninspiring acquisition when it was announced but I assumed he was the MAT replacement, a guy who would be Buxton's CF backup and provide value with his fielding because it was apparent based on his track record, his bat was going to be disappointing... and now we see he can't manage CF and his defensive metrics are quite bad in the corners. Yuck.

Unfortunately, whenever this front office makes a blunder with a player like this they are usually given far too much rope and I don't see them giving up on Margot any time soon.

[Doctor Wu]

19 hours ago, Beast said:

Maybe Doncon ends up being a good piece,  but I’d rather have Miller and Taylor right now

Doncon may indeed end up being what saves the Twins in that trade.