The Latest Trade Rumors Regarding Joe Ryan and Pablo López

[Cody Christie]

Image courtesy of © Brad Rempel-Imagn Images

The offseason has barely begun, yet the Minnesota Twins already find themselves at the center of some of the most complicated pitching rumors in baseball. With the team coming off another frustrating finish and the front office operating under unclear ownership direction, league insiders have turned their attention toward the future of Minnesota’s top starters. Joe Ryan and Pablo Lopez remain foundational names, but the possibility of a major rotation shakeup is gaining traction.

What makes this situation particularly unique is how many external factors are influencing the Twins’ decision-making. Injuries, contract considerations, labor uncertainty, and an ownership transition have all collided at once. The result is an offseason outlook that feels more unpredictable than any Minnesota has faced in recent memory. As national reporters continue to weigh in, the picture around the Twins’ rotation becomes more complex.

Pablo López Appears More Likely To Be Moved
Joel Sherman of the New York Post reported that the Twins are “more likely” to trade Pablo López than Joe Ryan as the club explores ways to reshape its roster. López is owed over $43 million through 2027, and his recent performance complicates the picture. A forearm issue limited him to just fourteen starts in 2025, and he threw 75 2/3 innings with a strong 3.19 FIP but a middling 17% K-BB rate. 

He had been one of baseball’s more reliable arms during his early Twins tenure, yet his performance has seen peaks and valleys. At age thirty, López still carries name value, but his trade stock is at its lowest point with the Twins, forcing the club to deal from a position of weakness.

Passan Says One Co-Ace Could Go, But Not Both
National attention intensified with ESPN’s Jeff Passan writing that “the Twins will deal one of their co-aces but not both.” He noted that both pitchers’ contracts will be influenced by the possibility of a lockout because their team control runs through the 2027 campaign. That uncertainty is muddying the market as teams attempt to calculate risk before giving up premium prospects. 

If front offices are afraid to commit significant resources before labor clarity arrives, the Twins may be forced to accept an offer that falls short of internal expectations. It places the front office in a difficult position as they attempt to balance long-term value with short-term roster needs.

Rosenthal Highlights Falvey’s Balancing Act
The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal painted a picture of a front office trying to stay upright in heavy winds. Derek Falvey emphasized that he remains committed to improving a roster that has fallen short in back-to-back seasons. The message from the general managers' meetings was clear. 

“I remain personally committed to figuring out what are the ways we can add to this group to make it better,” Falvey said from the general managers meetings. “That is my goal. It was my stated goal before and remains my stated goal until I’m told otherwise. … My focus for now is figuring out ways we can add to the group.”

Falvey wants to add talent and believes the core can still be supplemented in meaningful ways. The larger question is whether ownership shares that sentiment. At the trade deadline, Falvey was instructed to dismantle rather than reinforce, and that disconnect remains a central storyline. With two new investors awaiting league approval, the chain of command could shift. Until that happens, both Ryan and López remain possible trade candidates as the front office waits for clearer marching orders.

A Fan Base Left In Limbo
For Twins fans, the through line in all these reports is uncertainty. López might be the more likely trade chip, but his value is depressed. Other clubs covet Ryan, but dealing him would create a massive hole in the rotation. National reporters suggest that only one will be moved, yet a potential lockout clouds the market itself. And above it all stands an ownership group that has not yet finalized its internal structure. 

Falvey has acknowledged that the Twins may not have a firm direction until minority ownership approval is completed. That delay could stall major trade talks and limit the team’s ability to pursue meaningful free agents. Minnesota’s offseason will ultimately hinge on clarity from the top. Until that arrives, the front office, the players, and the fan base remain stuck in a holding pattern.

The Twins are navigating an offseason marked by more uncertainty than resolve. Trade conversations involving Ryan and López remain fluid, and the market is affected by conditions beyond baseball operations’ control. If ownership does not provide direction soon, the window for impact additions could narrow quickly. Minnesota still has a chance to strengthen its roster, but the path forward will depend on decisive leadership and a clear organizational vision.

Should the Twins trade one of their top starters or hold firm until the ownership situation settles? How much should the looming lockout impact trade decisions? Share your thoughts and join the discussion below.

 

View full article

[Cory Engelhardt]

From a pure "you trade guys at the height of their value" standpoint; I keep coming back to now is the absolute time to listen on Ryan if nothing else. I'm not saying they have to trade him, but I have to think this offseason is the time that they would receive the most via trade.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Minnesota has a chance to strengthen its "future" roster by trading Ryan or Lopez...but just not its "current" roster.,  I hope the rudderless Twins keep both pitchers, as we sail into the imminent dawn. 

[TJSweens]

I would rather trade Ober than Lopez or Ryan. I'm wary of a long limbed 6'10 pitcher who can't throw at least a 93 mph fastball. Now he has lost velocity from the 91 mph he used to have. Trade him now before any residual value evaporates.

[Cory Engelhardt]

8 minutes ago, TJSweens said:

I would rather trade Ober than Lopez or Ryan. I'm wary of a long limbed 6'10 pitcher who can't throw at least a 93 mph fastball. Now he has lost velocity from the 91 mph he used to have. Trade him now before any residual value evaporates.

Depending on returns I'd be ok trading Ryan AND Ober this offseason. Have to listen at least. 

I hold onto Lopez for now. Possibly deadline.

[tony&rodney]

Groundhog Day for Twins fans with a you pick it theme:

Should the Twins trade, hold, or half-ass it with Lopez, Ryan?

Will the Twins roll it back again?

Can the Twins rebuild?

What is the budget? Is it $110M Is it $140M? Is it $80M? Nobody knows.

Will the Twins sit things out waiting for an answer of what to do and then say we tried but the market was difficult?

 

[Craig Arko]

I just gotta say I wouldn’t trust the New York Post to get a crossword puzzle correct, let alone any reporting.

[rdehring]

Another day, another piece talking about the "unclear ownership direction."  Yes, it is unclear to us fans and even all those reporters with all their inside information. 

But we don't know that it is unclear to Falvey and the front office.  For all we know, he may have specific instructions, including payroll, on what his options are for the 2026 Twins.  Should that be true, like all of you I have no idea, his ambiguous comments would be a smart way of entering an off-season of wheeling and dealing.

What I do know is by the second week of February we all will know what the spring training roster will be.  I remain hopeful that it will be a team who will provide exciting baseball at Target Field in 2026.

[mikelink45]

This story line is getting repetitious and frustrating.  I would keep both, but Falvey and Pohlads don't care about fans.  So sell them both, but if so please, even by accident, get a strong return.  

Like last year we will have rumors and speculation, but nothing concrete until near ST.

[NYCTK]

Gotta wait for the dust to settle with Skubal before anything happens with either of Lopez or Ryan. Teams aren't going to offer up 3 top 5 prospects to the Twins if those assets could be used to secure a legitimate ace. 

[tony&rodney]

2 minutes ago, rdehring said:

Another day, another piece talking about the "unclear ownership direction."  Yes, it is unclear to us fans and even all those reporters with all their inside information. 

But we don't know that it is unclear to Falvey and the front office.  For all we know, he may have specific instructions on what his options are for the 2026 Twins.  Should that be true, like all of you I have no idea, his ambiguous comments would be a smart way of entering an off-season of wheeling and dealing.

What I do know is by the second week of February we all will know what the spring training roster will be.  I remain hopeful that it will be a team who will provide exciting baseball at Target Field in 2026.

Clearly the fans and reporters/insiders have no idea what the Twins are thinking much less planning. That is fine with me. The concern would be if the Twins really have no idea at all of what they think. So we wait. 

My voice has been to oppose rolling it back again. My view of the August, September roster was that change is needed. Others disagree. There are opportunities available. How risk adverse are the Twins? Waiting out the market is not generally the best strategy for avoiding mediocrity. My patience is being tested.

[Riverbrian]

I am under the impression. I may be wrong... I may be right... but I am under the impression that Joe Ryan has the highest trade value of any player on the current 40 man roster and that's why you trade him.  

I am also under the impression because of money owed that the trade value difference between Joe Ryan and Pablo Lopez isn't close.  

Therefore because of this impression... may it be right or wrong. Joe Ryan is the guy you trade in an attempt to bring back higher quality young talent. If you are going to trade these guys... Let's not mess around with marginal attempts at talent acquisition.  

[Rufus]

36 minutes ago, TJSweens said:

I would rather trade Ober than Lopez or Ryan. I'm wary of a long limbed 6'10 pitcher who can't throw at least a 93 mph fastball. Now he has lost velocity from the 91 mph he used to have. Trade him now before any residual value evaporates.

Ober is coming off a bad year, his value is down.  He had a hip injury last season that limited him.   At least give him a chance to re-establish himself before trading him.  

[SteveLV]

I actually think Buxton has the highest trade value--assuming he waived his no trade clause.

He had a terrific year, was relatively healthy, and is cheap!

I do agree that Ryan is likely to be traded, and I hope they get some very, very good talent back for him.

[nicksaviking]

53 minutes ago, TJSweens said:

I would rather trade Ober than Lopez or Ryan. I'm wary of a long limbed 6'10 pitcher who can't throw at least a 93 mph fastball. Now he has lost velocity from the 91 mph he used to have. Trade him now before any residual value evaporates.

Right, but then why would another team want to trade for him?

You can either trade Ober and get nothing of value for him, or hold on to him, cross your fingers his velocity returns and with it his value.

[tony&rodney]

15 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Gotta wait for the dust to settle with Skubal before anything happens with either of Lopez or Ryan. Teams aren't going to offer up 3 top 5 prospects to the Twins if those assets could be used to secure a legitimate ace. 

That seems to be the buzz in the media world, which makes sense on the surface. However, it would be much less surprising, to me, if the Twins traded all of Lopez, Buxton, Ryan, Lewis, and Ober than if Detroit traded Tarik Skubal. The Tigers had piles of injuries last season and still won 87 games. They have a number of players going into their last contract seasons and only $28M on the books for 2027. In two years their financial commitments drop to $5M. Detroit has a very healthy organization right now. 2026 should be a year where the Tigers put together a roster that is favored in the American League. The Detroit fans suffered enough from 2017-2022. It would a little shocking if they traded Skubal and took a backwards step. From the outside it seems like every big market team covets Tarik Skubal and thus the flood of rumors. 

[Rufus]

IF I were the GM I would just sit back and see what offers came in for Lopez and Ryan.  If I got bowled over by an offer and it helped the team... well then I surely would have to consider making a trade.  Ryan is a year away from his walk year so now is the time to move or sign him.  Don't get caught in the walk year have to trade him like they did with Santana.  I remember Sid reporting back in day that the Dodgers had offered a couple of young minor leaguers for Johan in the year before his walk year.  One of those players was this pitcher named Kershaw.

[AceWrigley]

45 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

I just gotta say I wouldn’t trust the New York Post to get a crossword puzzle correct, let alone any reporting.

At least it's bias is toward the sensational rather than idealogical.

[nicksaviking]

48 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

I just gotta say I wouldn’t trust the New York Post to get a crossword puzzle correct, let alone any reporting.

Yeah, and tabloid rag aside, the quote is taken from an article called, 'How Yankees can capitalize on MLB’s growing trend of relievers converting to successful starters'.

Joel Sherman is as tied into the Twins as he is the Italian National Baseball Team. If they up and vanished tomorrow, he wouldn't even notice.

The Twins may be looking to move Lopez, but Sherman is getting this info second or third hand from his sources on the Yankees or other East Coast teams. And if the Twins are actually looking to make trades, it would be in the Twins best interests to obfuscate their true intentions.

[TopGunn#22]

All of this uncertainty lies at the feet of a hated ownership family that consistently fumbles public relations with their fanbase like Brent McClanahan at the goal line in the Super Bowl vs the Raiders.

And it's hard to take ANYTHING Falvey says seriously.  He talks of "wanting to figure out ways of adding talent to the group" yet he also talks about Cody Clemens as the likely starting 1B and a key role for Eddie Julien in the coming season.  Clemens is a 29 year old journeyman who had a career year with HR's last year that in all likelihood will not repeat in 2026 of ever again.  Julien has been a horrible hitter for 2 consecutive years and is a major defensive liability wherever he plays.  These guys are NOT realistic building blocks.

With all the young SP talent the Twins have promoted from their system (Matthews, SWR, Festa, Ober) and recently acquired (Bradley, Abel, Rojas) It seems to me very likely that at least ONE of Ryan, Lopez or Ober gets traded.  Especially with Connor Prielipp probably coming in 2026 and Dasan Hill looking like a future big leaguer.  

Ober still has some reasonably decent value.  If I could trade him for a young hitter that would help the lineup, I'd prefer to do that and keep Ryan and Lopez in the rotation.  I think guys like SWR, Matthews, Bradley and Abel could certainly replace Ober going forward.  Ober's BBTV is 20.4.  That could presumably get the Twins White Sox Catcher Edgar Quero (17.8) or the Mets 3B/1B/DH Mark Vientos (19.8) or the Red Sox 1B/DH Tristan Casas (13.5) plus another prospect).  Each of those hitters would fill a hole in the Twins 2026 lineup, so it's clear Ober could bring something of value back.

I've stated numerous times that if I had to trade either Ryan or Lopez, my choice would be Ryan.  His current BBTV is 52.7.  Lopez is at 16.5.  Ryan and Lopez are very close in age.  Their pitching stats and metrics are very similar as well.  The thing that separates them so greatly isn't talent, it's COST.  With a 2026 roster that looks to have around half the players earning $1 million or less, the Twins don't need  to trim the $21.7 million they are paying Pablo.

Ryan offers the much greater return for either a good major league bat, solid prospects, or some kind of combination of both depending on if the deal is bigger than just a Ryan for Jarren Duran swap. 

I read a story about how the Red Sox appear to be cooling on a Joe Ryan trade as the Twins are asking for just too much in return (according to "Baseball Insiders").  To me, that's an obvious "planted" rumor from the Red Sox front office trying to pressure Falvey to sell low on Ryan. Of course the Twins should be asking for a King's Ransom for a pitcher of Ryan's talent and affordable salary and future control.

The Red Sox are desperate to compete next year but know they are at a clear disadvantage unless they add at least one and probably TWO excellent SP's to slot #2 & #3 behind Garrett Crochet.  The Yankees and Blue Jays have better pitching than they do.  They could just "buy" one of those pitchers on the FA market and trade to add the other.  I'm not buying the idea that Boston is cooling on Joe Ryan at all.  

[Chembry]

1 hour ago, TJSweens said:

I would rather trade Ober than Lopez or Ryan. I'm wary of a long limbed 6'10 pitcher who can't throw at least a 93 mph fastball. Now he has lost velocity from the 91 mph he used to have. Trade him now before any residual value evaporates.

What's interesting about Ober's velocity, is that Perkins specifically mentioned (either during TV or radio broadcasts, I can't quite remember) that Ober would consistently hit 92-93 during his bullpen sessions...even late into the season.  Why didn't that transfer into games? I think there is more to the story than just mechanics.  We know he was dealing with hip issues since spring training last year.  I wouldn't be surprised if that lingered even when coming back off the IL in July.

[tony&rodney]

18 minutes ago, Rufus said:

IF I were the GM I would just sit back and see what offers came in for Lopez and Ryan.  If I got bowled over by an offer and it helped the team... well then I surely would have to consider making a trade.

There is no way that we can be certain of how these processes work or how conversations take place between teams. Supposedly the Arraez - Lopez trade with Miami was initiated and pushed by the Marlins. Likewise we read that Tampa Bay called and offered Joe Ryan for Nelson Cruz. This is what we read but I'm not certain.

My thinking is that the Twins (in addition to taking all calls, reading and responding to every text and listening to all thoughts from other teams) initiate numerous conversations and offer and discuss specific players in all sorts of combinations in an attempt to find solutions to improving the 2026 roster. Sooner is better than later too.

[rdehring]

31 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

All of this uncertainty lies at the feet of a hated ownership family that consistently fumbles public relations with their fanbase like Brent McClanahan at the goal line in the Super Bowl vs the Raiders.

And it's hard to take ANYTHING Falvey says seriously.  He talks of "wanting to figure out ways of adding talent to the group" yet he also talks about Cody Clemens as the likely starting 1B and a key role for Eddie Julien in the coming season.  Clemens is a 29 year old journeyman who had a career year with HR's last year that in all likelihood will not repeat in 2026 of ever again.  Julien has been a horrible hitter for 2 consecutive years and is a major defensive liability wherever he plays.  These guys are NOT realistic building blocks.

With all the young SP talent the Twins have promoted from their system (Matthews, SWR, Festa, Ober) and recently acquired (Bradley, Abel, Rojas) It seems to me very likely that at least ONE of Ryan, Lopez or Ober gets traded.  Especially with Connor Prielipp probably coming in 2026 and Dasan Hill looking like a future big leaguer.  

Ober still has some reasonably decent value.  If I could trade him for a young hitter that would help the lineup, I'd prefer to do that and keep Ryan and Lopez in the rotation.  I think guys like SWR, Matthews, Bradley and Abel could certainly replace Ober going forward.  Ober's BBTV is 20.4.  That could presumably get the Twins White Sox Catcher Edgar Quero (17.8) or the Mets 3B/1B/DH Mark Vientos (19.8) or the Red Sox 1B/DH Tristan Casas (13.5) plus another prospect).  Each of those hitters would fill a hole in the Twins 2026 lineup, so it's clear Ober could bring something of value back.

I've stated numerous times that if I had to trade either Ryan or Lopez, my choice would be Ryan.  His current BBTV is 52.7.  Lopez is at 16.5.  Ryan and Lopez are very close in age.  Their pitching stats and metrics are very similar as well.  The thing that separates them so greatly isn't talent, it's COST.  With a 2026 roster that looks to have around half the players earning $1 million or less, the Twins don't need  to trim the $21.7 million they are paying Pablo.

Ryan offers the much greater return for either a good major league bat, solid prospects, or some kind of combination of both depending on if the deal is bigger than just a Ryan for Jarren Duran swap. 

I read a story about how the Red Sox appear to be cooling on a Joe Ryan trade as the Twins are asking for just too much in return (according to "Baseball Insiders").  To me, that's an obvious "planted" rumor from the Red Sox front office trying to pressure Falvey to sell low on Ryan. Of course the Twins should be asking for a King's Ransom for a pitcher of Ryan's talent and affordable salary and future control.

The Red Sox are desperate to compete next year but know they are at a clear disadvantage unless they add at least one and probably TWO excellent SP's to slot #2 & #3 behind Garrett Crochet.  The Yankees and Blue Jays have better pitching than they do.  They could just "buy" one of those pitchers on the FA market and trade to add the other.  I'm not buying the idea that Boston is cooling on Joe Ryan at all.  

Love this comment, TopGunn.  Count me with those hoping that the pitcher the Twins trade is Ryan.

My dream return is a young reliever with a year or two big league experience.  Someone who can be expected to become similar to Varland or Jax.  Someone who will be a late inning option for the Twins in 2026. 

Add a top prospect with some big league experience who is a first baseman.  A player who can be expected to start for the Twins in 2026.  Throw in a top 5 prospect who is a starting pitcher a bit further away, say Hi-A. 

Should be a team needing one more really good starting pitcher to compete for it all in 2026 and the Twins should be able to get a King's ransom.  Hopefully, Falvey will go get it.   

[tony&rodney]

19 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

I'm not buying the idea that Boston is cooling on Joe Ryan at all.  

Teams have to be restraining their enthusiasm at the thought of acquiring Joe Ryan and making every effort to play down his worth. There are exactly zero teams that are cooling on Joe Ryan. He will play next season at around $6M and if he is a CY Young candidate that goes nowhere above $12-14M in 2027. Two seasons of Joe Ryan for less than Frankie Montas and a host of other pitchers. Teams are drooling over the chance to roster Joe Ryan. Ryan is also an excellent candidate to extend, similar to what the Red Sox accomplished with Garrett Crochet. Boston paid Lucas Giolito and Walker Buehler pricey numbers to hang out last season. You can bet the farm that they are hoping that Falvey accepts less than they are willing to offer. The Mets caved because of their starting pitching. They will be all in on Ryan. Detroit is the team that should be offering up something delicious. We can go on and on. No team is cooling on Joe Ryan.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

Rumors are out there for many reasons.  One, there is some truth in them and they are based on real things.  BUT, two, they are planted by various parties and fed to sports reporters so they can get a particular spin out there.  I’m guessing there is some truth out there, but there is also a lot of ether.  Reader beware.

As for trading Lopez or Ryan, here’s how I look at it.  If you are trying to build a winning team, you need to have (IMO order of importance) good starting pitching, good offensive production, a good bullpen, and at least a modicum of defense.  The Twins have mostly crummy defense, a non-existent bullpen, mediocre/inconsistent offense, and good starting pitching.  I also think that the odds of them developing a bullpen from the multitude of pitching prospects are strong, but will take time.  So. . . the pitching side is OK.  The offense and fielding are not.  If there was ever a time to sign some hitters in the free agent market, it is now, but I digress. . .  sigh!  

So, by my logic (and YMMV) it seems ridiculous to trade away the strength of your team (two semi-ace starters) to solidify other aspects unless you think that you have so many solid (or potentially solid) starting pitchers that they won’t be missed.  I don’t see that because I’m not sure who I would project as being as good as or better than Pablo and Joe that is currently at/near the top of the minor league food chain.  Taking them away means that now the starting pitching is where the offense has been for the past year or more.  AND, you are no longer on the right side of the bar in any of the four categories. Because Major Leaguer for Major Leaguer trades so seldom happen, the prospects you acquire will (at best) be helpful in the future, and the best ones (most potential, most risk, farthest from the majors) won’t help for several season or maybe ever.  In the meantime, you have completely jettisoned any chance of being competitive for at least a couple of seasons.  Living through the early 80’s and late 90’s has made me never want to do that again. Thinking that “tanking” now will mean we are really good in a couple of years is a short-sighted view.  

Is it POSSIBLE that the Twins get an offer that blows them away?  Sure.  Anything is possible, but when was the last time that happened?  Probably it was the trade that brought us Joe Nathan, et al many years ago (and I’m not sure that wasn’t just dumb luck).  I’m not holding my breath for that. 

[Cory Engelhardt]

1 hour ago, NYCTK said:

Gotta wait for the dust to settle with Skubal before anything happens with either of Lopez or Ryan. Teams aren't going to offer up 3 top 5 prospects to the Twins if those assets could be used to secure a legitimate ace. 

I also think there is a chance they would wait until after the mlb draft lottery happens too. If they end up with the #1 pick (Roch Cholowsky) or the #2 pick (Grady Emerson) who are both ss's, that would also be a path where the type of return they receive from other teams wouldn't HAVE to prioritize the SS position.

 

[NYCTK]

5 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

The Mets caved because of their starting pitching. They will be all in on Ryan.

Mets will be all in on Skubal. They will be very interested in Ryan, but nowhere near all in. 

Jett Williams and Brandon Sproat, maybe Ryan Clifford or Mark Vientos for offensive punch, but these talks will happen after Skubal is either extended or traded (or Tigers announce nothing is happening). 

[laloesch]

Twins insider source stated that Ryan was more likely to be moved than Lopez due to interest but either one could get trade.  Apparently the Twins aren't willing to trade both.  My guess would be Lopez because of his 21.5 million plus salary.  This is all in preparation for the 2027 work stoppage that will probably result in a lost season.  Twins are going cheap cheap again like the 90's and will claim to be dirt poor during that lost season.  If Lopez is traded they are gonna be at what? 68 million in payroll projected?  I've also heard grumblings that Buxton is considering waiving his no trade clause as he does not want to have to go through another full rebuild.  If the Twins end up dealing him too, they are down to say 53 million?  That would be crazy.

[NYCTK]

10 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

I also think there is a chance they would wait until after the mlb draft lottery happens too. If they end up with the #1 pick (Roch Cholowsky) or the #2 pick (Grady Emerson) who are both ss's, that would also be a path where the type of return they receive from other teams wouldn't HAVE to prioritize the SS position.

 

Nah, I can't imagine the Twins letting the draft change their decision making this offseason. That'd be incredibly poor management. And, as we know, a player drafted as a SS may soon be a CF or a 3B, so letting a position of a drafted player affect your decision making at the major league level is especially poor. 

[Cory Engelhardt]

4 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Nah, I can't imagine the Twins letting the draft change their decision making this offseason. That'd be incredibly poor management. And, as we know, a player drafted as a SS may soon be a CF or a 3B, so letting a position of a drafted player affect your decision making at the major league level is especially poor. 

Maybe I should have just said Cholowsky then. He could be up in 2027, so if he is ready made, that would change the focus of returns no?