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Posted
Image courtesy of © Melissa Tamez-Imagn Images

Taylor Rogers has accrued nine years and 145 days of MLB service time—just 27 days short of collecting his pension. The rest of the Twins’ projected Opening Day bullpen (Justin Topa, Cole Sands, Kody Funderburk, Eric Orze, Pierson Ohl, Travis Adams, John Klein) has 11 years and 83 days in total.

About half of that time belongs to Topa, who sits at five years and 44 days, but three of those years (2021, 2022, 2024) he spent injured and threw 13 combined innings. Cole Sands has two fewer years of experience and eight more appearances. So, in terms of MLB experience not spent rehabbing, it’s closer to nine years between those seven bullpen arms.

Put another way—Rogers has thrown 541 1/3 innings as a big leaguer. Those seven names, combined, have thrown 578 2/3 frames. If you want to throw one of the starting pitchers into a bullpen role, I don’t begrudge you, but David Festa only raises the service time count to 12 years and 135 days, then the innings count to 657 1/3.

Rogers brings far and away the most experience in a bullpen stocked with players still wet behind the ears. Many players are slated to make their big-league debuts in the bullpen this season—like Klein, Marco Raya, or Connor Priellipp. It wouldn’t be surprising if some starters—like Festa, Mick Abel, or Zebby Matthews—spent time in the bullpen.

Having someone like Rogers, a former All-Star closer, has value when dealing with this level of youth and inexperience. The nerds in the room may turn up their noses at such an idea. To many, it’s foolish to buy into the human element playing any role in a team’s success, but we have empirical evidence that these things matter. There’s a litany of organizational and managerial research that informs this, but there’s also been studies of MLB teams.

In 2013, Jamal Shamsie of Michigan State and Michael Mannor of Notre Dame published a study analyzing MLB teams from 1985 to 2001 and attempting to measure tacit knowledge. Tacit knowledge refers to knowledge that is difficult to communicate, because it’s gained through experience. A player can have all the skill and instruction in the world, but without experience, they cannot reach their full potential. They have to live to learn.

One form of tacit knowledge that the researchers identified was discrete productive knowledge: knowledge gained from doing the work repeatedly—essentially, the more times you do something, the better you’ll understand it, and the better you’ll perform. This isn’t a practice-makes-perfect skill acquisition idea; it’s understanding your job better and being better able to react when things go awry, because you’ve done it before.

How did the researchers quantify discrete productive knowledge? Pretty simple: years of experience. They even split it up into regular-season experience and playoff experience. They found, over the span of their study, that regular-season and playoff experience both contribute to team success. That is, teams with more experienced players tend to do better. These findings were similar to those of a 2002 study by Shawn Berman, Jonathan Down, and Charles Hill on tacit knowledge among NBA players.

Obviously, there are easy criticisms to make of this methodology. Players who have played longer tend to be better players. You don’t see a bunch of guys playing 15 years while also being bad. But the researchers attempted to control for that as well. Beyond other types of tacit knowledge, like manager experience, tenure within a team, or the number of lineup changes in a year, the authors also controlled for previous years’ winning percentage, market size, and payroll. And they found that even beyond those effects, experience made a real difference. Having 'been there' matters.

Rogers understands the game in a way his less-experienced colleagues do not. He knows how to navigate late innings in a way his teammates don’t, simply by dint of having done it before.

By definition, he’s in a better position to navigate bullpen and late-inning life. Even if he’s regressed to a similar skill as someone like Funderburk, he has the background to help him outperform his sheer talent at age 35. Sands might be better than him at this point in his career, but Rogers has two 30-save seasons under his belt. He knows what it feels like to close a nailbiter out. He’s done it dozens of times.

Given that experience, he can immediately step into a high-leverage role. That might just be keeping a high-leverage seat warm for one of the younger guys, but it’s an experienced presence that can anchor a bullpen.

Of course, there’s also explicit knowledge. There are things that he can teach younger guys. Not just “throw a slider in this count” or “move your index finger a little to the left,” but he can be a resource for living the big-league bullpen life, because this will be his 11th year doing it. Many pitchers struggle with finding the right weight-lifting and throwing routines to navigate the unpredictable schedule of a reliever's work. Some aren't as sharp as they need to be when they enter the game, because their preparation in the pen itself before entering is imperfect. Applying scouting and analytical data about opposing hitters is a skill that requires development. Rogers can help with all of that.

A player can communicate some of their experience to others. It’s not all locked in their head, tacit and uncommunicable. A good veteran has both types of knowledge to share.


Berman, S. L., Down, J., & Charles W. L. Hill. (2002). Tacit Knowledge as a Source of Competitive Advantage in the National Basketball Association. The Academy of Management Journal, 45(1), 13–31.

Shamsie, J., & Mannor, M. J. (2013). Looking inside the dream team: Probing into the contributions of tacit knowledge as an organizational resource. Organization Science, 24(2), 513-529.


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Posted

His stats from last year were respectable, so his contribution has real upside. His experience can’t hurt when being around other young arms!

Latrell Hawkins & Ryan Pressley have been hired to be part of the organization. They must have 25-30 years between them in MLB bullpens……….I think Hawkins is going to be on field in the PEN & not really sure of Pressley’s role?

Rogers can generally just focus on pitching and these other two guys, along with Maki, can focus on the group’s and individual’s mind sets & approach.

 

Posted

Rogers being older and experienced isn't going to make any difference in my opinion.

Justin Topa's 35 this year.

Sands and Funderburk have several years of MLB experience.

The grizzled veteran is another one of those "intangibles" usually used to justify bad veteran players' existence on the roster. We didn't see big growth when Joey Gallow was here. Nelson Cruz wasn't able to make Miguel Sano GG. Vazquez couldn't teach Ryan Jeffers how to be a good defensive catcher. 

There is no value in the grizzled veteran IMHO. We have coaches. There are plenty of veteran players who've been there on the team.

Posted
12 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Rogers being older and experienced isn't going to make any difference in my opinion.

Justin Topa's 35 this year.

Sands and Funderburk have several years of MLB experience.

The grizzled veteran is another one of those "intangibles" usually used to justify bad veteran players' existence on the roster. We didn't see big growth when Joey Gallow was here. Nelson Cruz wasn't able to make Miguel Sano GG. Vazquez couldn't teach Ryan Jeffers how to be a good defensive catcher. 

There is no value in the grizzled veteran IMHO. We have coaches. There are plenty of veteran players who've been there on the team.

Kind of agree, I think Rogers professionalism can always be a positive piece of this current club.

His main purpose is saving games and stacking wins for a team that might not win many games. Prioritize pitching, the team needs him to pitch well.

Posted
1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

Rogers being older and experienced isn't going to make any difference in my opinion.

Justin Topa's 35 this year.

Sands and Funderburk have several years of MLB experience.

The grizzled veteran is another one of those "intangibles" usually used to justify bad veteran players' existence on the roster. We didn't see big growth when Joey Gallow was here. Nelson Cruz wasn't able to make Miguel Sano GG. Vazquez couldn't teach Ryan Jeffers how to be a good defensive catcher. 

There is no value in the grizzled veteran IMHO. We have coaches. There are plenty of veteran players who've been there on the team.

Expecting Cruz to make Sano GG (which I assume means Gold Glove?) is wrong on two levels.  First, Cruz was a hitter, not a fielder.  And second, asking Cruz to turn Sano into a Gold Glove candidate is like asking Wolfgang Puck to make a Michelin-star meal out of rotting vegetables and the grizzle from a cheap cut of meat.  There has to be some inherent ability with which Cruz could work.

Posted
14 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

Expecting Cruz to make Sano GG (which I assume means Gold Glove?) is wrong on two levels.  First, Cruz was a hitter, not a fielder.  And second, asking Cruz to turn Sano into a Gold Glove candidate is like asking Wolfgang Puck to make a Michelin-star meal out of rotting vegetables and the grizzle from a cheap cut of meat.  There has to be some inherent ability with which Cruz could work.

git gud was my thought pattern.

Veterans are often cited as having some sort of veteran capability to teach players how to be better, but I've rarely seen any long term evidence of that. 

Even truly talented guys like Cruz aren't going to be able to sprinkle magic fairy dust on players to add talent, but the very same arguments are made for any and all veteran signings. 

It's like the tech definition of an expert shared with me years ago. Apparently "expert" means somebody who lives more than 500 miles away.

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
14 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Veterans are often cited as having some sort of veteran capability to teach players how to be better, but I've rarely seen any long term evidence of that. 

FWIW, that really wasn’t the topic of this article, because tacit knowledge is by definition difficult to communicate.

Verified Member
Posted
19 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Veterans are often cited as having some sort of veteran capability to teach players how to be better, but I've rarely seen any long term evidence of that. 

 

True. It is less eye-roll inducing than when people kept bringing up the fact that Brooks Lee's dad is a baseball coach last season, but equally useless.  

Verified Member
Posted

As I e stated numerous times on these boards, when they start rolling out intangibles as a player quality it usually means they aren’t very good anymore. You can keep the intangibles and give him 4mph on his fastball. 

Verified Member
Posted
3 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Experience and  personality are important to team performance. Rogers knows his time as an MLB player is closing and he is pumped to reach 10 years with the Twins. I like Rogers as a player to guide the kids. Nobody should be expecting the same pitcher that left in the trade to San Diego, but he has value.

I agree with this.  It's a decent move that is only sad because, thus far, it's our big move with the bullpen.  I am ever so curious to see if/which starter the Twins move to the pen.  Those hoped for moves could make a bigger difference to the Twins fortunes.   We all know the candidates...

Posted

Taylor Roger's was brought in to pitch , pitch cheaply at 2 million  for the year ...

If the younger players are inquisitive and ask Roger's how he does this and that , im sure he'll cooperate and help them out ...

He's here to pitch and concentrate on helping the twins win games however that may be ...

Verified Member
Posted

More? 

Signing Rogers is basically baseballs equivalent of HGTV’s Flip or Flop.

The Twins are looking at Taylor Rogers like a fixer-upper house they hope to flip for "More" prospects by August.

Posted

I think there is some value to have players who have experienced just about everything in their time as a big leaguer. It is also about as difficult to measure as any other variable. Rogers was signed to pitch, not serve as a coach or mentor, but having him around probably will help the inexperienced guys in learning how to thrive as a major league pitcher. 

Posted

There's going to be at least one more trade or signing for the bullpen, supposedly. We'll see if that guy is above or below Rodgers in the experience category. I'm looking forward to that article, too.😊

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted

"The rest of the Twins’ projected Opening Day bullpen (Justin Topa, Cole Sands, Kody Funderburk, Eric Orze, Pierson Ohl, Travis Adams, John Klein) has 11 years and 83 days in total"

Nitpic, but: 

Pierson Ohl? Did I miss something? 

 

As to the article, experience is always a good teacher, and that can include watching others with experience. I know I've sometimes benefitted from it, both ways.

Posted
9 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

"The rest of the Twins’ projected Opening Day bullpen (Justin Topa, Cole Sands, Kody Funderburk, Eric Orze, Pierson Ohl, Travis Adams, John Klein) has 11 years and 83 days in total"

Nitpic, but: 

Pierson Ohl? Did I miss something? 

 

As to the article, experience is always a good teacher, and that can include watching others with experience. I know I've sometimes benefitted from it, both ways.

If you're just picking through guys on the roster that have already thrown in the Twins bullpen, he's as likely a suspect as anyone. I doubt Adams, Ohl, or Klein have anything locked down.

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
10 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Pierson Ohl? Did I miss something? 

This was penned before Ohl’s DFA, and I forgot that I had listed him.

Swap him out for another bullpen candidate name on the current 40 and it might get shorter (Prielipp, Rojas, Raya, Morris) or slightly longer, if they moved a starter to the pen (Abel, Zebby)

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
1 hour ago, Greggory Masterson said:

This was penned before Ohl’s DFA, and I forgot that I had listed him.

 

As I said, nitpic.

Still, details matter.

Posted
1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

Rogers being older and experienced isn't going to make any difference in my opinion.

Justin Topa's 35 this year.

Sands and Funderburk have several years of MLB experience.

The grizzled veteran is another one of those "intangibles" usually used to justify bad veteran players' existence on the roster. We didn't see big growth when Joey Gallow was here. Nelson Cruz wasn't able to make Miguel Sano GG. Vazquez couldn't teach Ryan Jeffers how to be a good defensive catcher. 

There is no value in the grizzled veteran IMHO. We have coaches. There are plenty of veteran players who've been there on the team.

"No value in a grizzled veteran"? I disagree.  In my life, I have appreciated mentors helping me along in the infantry in the Korean DMZ on patrols. We never put new guys at point. Even though "f.....g" new guys had been to advanced infantry training, they still didn't know what the heck to look for or to listen for or to smell, especially in the pitch dark quietly walking to our night ambush position in the dangerous DMZ. I also learned a lot from 3 older lawyers in my law firm when I first started practicing law.  Even though I had my law degree and had passed the North Carolina Bar Exam, I truly did not know when to stand or sit down in a courtroom. As I gained courtroom experience, I understood why it became important to be a mentor to the younger lawyers who came along in my firm.  I have two friends, who are college professors at Appalachian State University and Harvard, who are both baseball nuts like I am. Both of them teach creative writing and are widely published. They gladly critique with honesty my short stories and poems. I listen to them, because they have successfully done what I am attempting to do with my writing. I also an currently am a mentor to veterans who have gotten into criminal trouble and are in our judicial district's veterans treatment court, to give the veteran defendants encouragement as they go through this year-long recovery program.  They listen to me, not because I was formerly a lawyer (I have retired), but because we can relate to one another due to our military service. We walked the same walk. Being mentored and mentoring have been important to me in my life. I plead guilty to being a grizzled veteran. When a grizzled veteran talks, I listen. 

Posted

Rogers has a lot to share. It will be seen and heard differently from a veteran who is out there doing it. The benefit from his experience will be tied to his success as a reliever. His experience isn’t going reap benefits if he is getting shelled every time he takes the mound. He needs to be out there getting guys out.

Posted
1 hour ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

"No value in a grizzled veteran"? I disagree.  In my life, I have appreciated mentors helping me along in the infantry in the Korean DMZ on patrols. We never put new guys at point. Even though "f.....g" new guys had been to advanced infantry training, they still didn't know what the heck to look for or to listen for or to smell, especially in the pitch dark quietly walking to our night ambush position in the dangerous DMZ. I also learned a lot from 3 older lawyers in my law firm when I first started practicing law.  Even though I had my law degree and had passed the North Carolina Bar Exam, I truly did not know when to stand or sit down in a courtroom. As I gained courtroom experience, I understood why it became important to be a mentor to the younger lawyers who came along in my firm.  I have two friends, who are college professors at Appalachian State University and Harvard, who are both baseball nuts like I am. Both of them teach creative writing and are widely published. They gladly critique with honesty my short stories and poems. I listen to them, because they have successfully done what I am attempting to do with my writing. I also an currently am a mentor to veterans who have gotten into criminal trouble and are in our judicial district's veterans treatment court, to give the veteran defendants encouragement as they go through this year-long recovery program.  They listen to me, not because I was formerly a lawyer (I have retired), but because we can relate to one another due to our military service. We walked the same walk. Being mentored and mentoring have been important to me in my life. I plead guilty to being a grizzled veteran. When a grizzled veteran talks, I listen. 

Thank you for your service!

Old-Timey Member
Posted

I agree as to Rogers providing mentorship as an added value. It doesn't matter if Prielipp has outstanding STUFF already, harnesses it more this year, maybe even develops his 2 seamer still, and looks ready sometime in June, he's probably going to be worked in middle innings first. 

And that goes for Raya, Lewis, Klein, and anybody else who moves to a pen role. Hawkins brings a WEALTH of knowledge as a coach who has "been there, done that."  But it's valuable to WATCH a ML pen arm go about his business, and impart knowledge, and even show how to respond when you have a bad day. 

Now, messages tend to fall flat if said veteran, Rogers in this instance, suddenly hits a wall and tanks. But he's smart, experienced, and was having a really solid season with the Cubs before the trade to Cincinnati. So I'm still expecting decent, solid results, even though he's not the pitcher he once was.

The biggest question remaining...only slightly off topic...is whether or not there's 1 or 2 decent "Rogers-like" RH options available to acquire who can help bridge the pen opportunities while the younger arms work their way in to more pressured roles without crapping themselves on the mound.

Unless the Twins spent enough $ for a TOP arm, or two, it was always going to be 2-3 veteran guys to just hold the fort, be decent, and not just blow up on a daily basis as bridge arms. Placeholders. But those placeholders HAVE the ability pass on knowledge, even non verbally, just by showing how they prepare, and how they respond when things go well, and also when things don't go so well.

Verified Member
Posted

Rogers value will come from whether or not he can still get batters out. Serving as a role model or being able to give advice or answer questions is great but he needs to get batters out. 

The Twins have 3 major league pitching coaches. There is a  video coach or two available.  Probably a system pitching coordinator available if you need some more advice. If you go back to AAA, there are couple of pitching coaches there.  I don't really believe support for young pitchers should be a problem. It is possible conflicting advice could be or maybe not. 

Verified Member
Posted

They already hired Hawkins to stand around and be wise. Taylor could add a lot, but his experience is only relevant as long as he pitches well. Veteran leadership is harder for pitchers than pinch hitters and backup catchers since as soon as he says "just work the edges and it'll get better" and then gets pounded again the kids will say "yeah, that totally worked."

No one will listen to some superannuated dude with a 6 ERA who can't stay out of the meaty center of the strike zone. As long as he can stay effective they'll treat him like a sage and he'll offer something that Hawkins doesn't.

Posted

Everybody has their favorite teacher from high school or college right? I bet if you compare notes it isn't always the same one for each person. Having a second guy who has been there is fine, but if Rogers is cooked he probably won't last much more than 27 days. It does seem that big leaguers do think reaching ten years service time is noteworthy, more than I would have thought. 

Big picture, Taylor Rogers is quite a success story for the Twins previous FO, A mid-round draft choice out of college who will almost certainly have a 10+ year career and make several million dollars, an All-Star nod and good career stats.

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