Twins Land Former Top Prospect Diego Cartaya in Trade With Dodgers

[NYCTK]

14 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

...he is actually very easily replaced by just about anybody and many of those 29 guys behind him on your list would've jumped him given the same amount of opportunity. 

Are you paying the Pohald's 10 million for his salary? If we're being completely honest the only reason you have an issue with our backup catcher is because the Pohlads are cheap and you're desperately trying to cut payroll on their behalf. 

As it is, it's not actually easy to both move him and his salary and then replace his decent production (for a backup catcher). 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm generally with you. Vazquez isn't an MLB catcher. Our pitchers have better numbers with Jeffers behind the plate. Vazquez is one of the worst hitters in baseball. He costs 10 mil. He's a net massive negative on the field. Although, it does sound like he's probably a general positive in the club house, but he can be that as a coach for far less than 10 mil and not hurt the team on the field.

I don't know how you get that 10 mil off the payroll, though. Without paying in prospect costs that I don't want to pay. The Pohlads aren't eating it, as much as I'd wish they would. Carrying 3 catchers to cover up Vazquez seems like making the situation worse. I don't know what Gasper's defense behind the plate looks like but it sure feels like that's a complete no go, so it's probably Camargo and Cartaya. I'd prefer giving them a go (I'd prefer Elias Diaz, actually). But I don't know how they dump Vazquez. I wish they would. But I don't see it happening.

I'm glad to have an option for 2026, but I don't feel confident that this solves much of anything for 2025. At least not yet.

Getting the 10 million off the payroll is going to cost you at least 5 million would be my guess. And then you would have to spend that extra 5 million for another catcher who hits like Vazquez anyway.  

Camargo not getting any playing time last year told me all I needed to know. The team was pot committed to Vazquez and nothing was going to take his job away. 

For 2025 and beyond... I feel a little better... just a little better that Cartaya is here to provide another option since Camargo couldn't unseat .575. Camargo was just too risky apparently. The Twins have lost ground to make up in the catching development department. 

I'm not advocating an immediate 26 man spot for Cartaya. I'm not even thinking that Cartaya is Johnny Bench. His stock has fallen far for the price we got him.

That isn't where my happiness over this move lies. I fully expect Jeffers and Vazquez to be the tandem out of spring. My happiness is having another option, that might provide whatever confidence Rocco and the front office needs to give someone the chance to try and OPS at least .580.    

 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

Curious. Do you really think that $10M is a problem the Twins must fix this year, possibly before ST? I can't see that, but am wondering if others do.

I think others do. I don't how many articles this website has posted and how many comments that I've read saying just move Vazquez to clear 10 million for spending money. Like a snap of fingers is going to make it happen. Like the Twins just have to decide to do this. 

I'd be shocked if they could do that. It takes two teams to trade. The same reason everybody is pointing to Vazquez as the obvious trade candidate to free up some spending money... is the same reason nobody is going to trade for him. Twinsdaily writers and posters don't want him... Why would another club at that price point. 

I really think that 10M is a problem that CAN'T be fixed this year.

I think that the unwillingness to audition Camargo during the 20 plus games he spent with the big club last year was perhaps an even bigger problem that that.

I think that the 3 year 30 million contract that they gave Vazquez was a stupidity tax (Ashbury's term) for not developing your own. I think that if Camargo can't audition in front of a .575 OPS. I think they will have to pay that stupidity tax again next year when they are searching for a replacement for Vazquez when he isn't resigned.

I think it never stops until the farm system can produce a major league catcher and today... I'm just a little more hopeful... just a little more hopeful that someone will rise from the streets and we can take catcher money and invest it into someone who plays every day instead. 

I know... I do too much thinking. 😎  

[old nurse]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

True... He was DFA'd. 

However, the Dodger system over flows much better stuff than other systems.

If you got to eat out of the garbage can. Don't go to my house... Go to Paris Hiltons place.    

If Paris eats out all the time you would starve

[Riverbrian]

46 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

My only concern with this approach is that it sounds like he needs lots of AB's to figure out his strike out rate and how will he get those AB's if he is sharing with Carmargo?  Just not sure if/how he develops in a sharing situation.

They don't 162 game catchers. That's why they are always over pays. 

Catchers require rest. 

Besides all that. Camargo and Cartaya can battle it out. Let the winner get more playing time. I'm all for letting the players decide. Less letting Management just go down with the Vazquez ship like they have no other option. 

If you don't have options... You better go get some.  

[Riverbrian]

6 minutes ago, old nurse said:

If Paris eats out all the time you would starve

She is probably the only person on the planet that follows the serving size recommendations on packages. 

Two Oreo Cookies is a serving size. I noticed that the other day as I was polishing off a row of them. 

 

[TheLeviathan]

Is anyone concerned that his defensive scouting reports aren't very good?  (At least in terms of keeping him at catcher)

[Riverbrian]

Just now, TheLeviathan said:

Is anyone concerned that his defensive scouting reports aren't very good?  (At least in terms of keeping him at catcher)

I wasn't

At least not until you mentioned it. 

Thanks... Much appreciated. 

[NYCTK]

9 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

She is probably the only person on the planet that follows the serving size recommendations on packages. 

Two Oreo Cookies is a serving size. I noticed that the other day as I was polishing off a row of them. 

 

A row? Such restraint. Well done! 

[Original_JB]

 From the Athletic: Cartaya's fall has been stark, and quick. A history of back injuries have kept him off the field for spurts, and when healthy he's struggled...

Swell, though I guess he'll fit right in.

[chpettit19]

34 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Are you paying the Pohald's 10 million for his salary? If we're being completely honest the only reason you have an issue with our backup catcher is because the Pohlads are cheap and you're desperately trying to cut payroll on their behalf. 

As it is, it's not actually easy to both move him and his salary and then replace his decent production (for a backup catcher). 

I'm not trying to cut payroll for them I'm just trying to have an adult conversation based on the general 130-140 million we all assume they've set. I know you hate them and the rich and all that. It's not productive to have this conversation outside of the reality they set forth for the payroll. If I don't have to follow their rules then I'd have signed Shohei last year for 1 billion and Soto this offseason for 900 million. But that's not a conversation I find to be productive so instead I try to have conversations around the guidelines in place whether I think they're the ones that should be there or not. Do I think the payroll should be higher? Yes. But it isn't, so the 10 million matters.

You can call him a backup all you want, but he's never been a backup here. In 2023 he started 91 games at catcher and caught 793 innings. In 2024 he started 81 games at catcher and caught 719 innings. Whether you like it or not he's not the backup. Just repeating the words over and over doesn't make it so.

And it's not decent production. He had a 60 OPS+ and wRC+ last year. His WAR number based on defensive metrics that didn't result in the pitchers being better with him on the mound than Jeffers doesn't make it decent production. I've never said it's easy to move him and his salary and then replace his production. In fact, I said the opposite.

This has stopped being a productive conversation so I'm moving on with my day. I hope you enjoy the rest of yours.

[chpettit19]

39 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Getting the 10 million off the payroll is going to cost you at least 5 million would be my guess. And then you would have to spend that extra 5 million for another catcher who hits like Vazquez anyway.  

Camargo not getting any playing time last year told me all I needed to know. The team was pot committed to Vazquez and nothing was going to take his job away. 

For 2025 and beyond... I feel a little better... just a little better that Cartaya is here to provide another option since Camargo couldn't unseat .575. Camargo was just too risky apparently. The Twins have lost ground to make up in the catching development department. 

I'm not advocating an immediate 26 man spot for Cartaya. I'm not even thinking that Cartaya is Johnny Bench. His stock has fallen far for the price we got him.

That isn't where my happiness over this move lies. I fully expect Jeffers and Vazquez to be the tandem out of spring. My happiness is having another option, that might provide whatever confidence Rocco and the front office needs to give someone the chance to try and OPS at least .580.    

 

I think you can get Elias Diaz for more like 3 mil if that makes your eyes twinkle a little brighter...

[Riverbrian]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

I think you can get Elias Diaz for more like 3 mil if that makes your eyes twinkle a little brighter...

And then we can spend that 2 million in savings on Connor Joe. 

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

And then we can spend that 2 million in savings on Connor Joe. 

Want to sit next to each other at the WS parade?

[bean5302]

3 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

None of Gasper, Camargo, Cartaya, or any other catcher currently in the Twins organization are capable of replacing either of Vazquez...

I could ride the bench and watch the game just as well as Vazquez can.

[Riverbrian]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

Want to sit next to each other at the WS parade?

Chia Pet... I'd sit next to you anytime,

You can be my short sider to my long side. 

 

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

34 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Is anyone concerned that his defensive scouting reports aren't very good?  (At least in terms of keeping him at catcher)

We have done very well with improving the defensive metrics on catchers.  I feel more comfortable that we get him up to average to above average,  than him re discovery his above average hit tool and power.  

[TheLeviathan]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

We have done very well with improving the defensive metrics on catchers.  I feel more comfortable that we get him up to average to above average,  than him re discovery his above average hit tool and power.  

I think that's where I'm at too.  

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, NYCTK said:

Especially a backup catcher. Most fans can't even name their team's backup catcher. 

And even so, Vazquez was 31st in the league last year in fWAR amongst the 60 catchers with at least 100 PAs. It's not his fault the Twins gave him an over market contract and their owner's are such cheap losers that the fans are fretting over $10 million in expenses in an $11 B industry. 

Plus WAR doesn't justify enough the defense & intangibles which is essential to catching. & he's considered by most here as a backup catcher. His defense including his intangibles is always dependable, his durability plus scoring a few runs here & there & getting some game-winners what more do you need from a backup catcher he's not a DH, defense matters. Good point NYCTK, why do so many hate him, it's not his fault that Falvey overpaid him (I'm afraid when you put money in Falvey's hands).

[cmoss84]

This is obviously a move before more moves. We trade Pablo to Orioles for Rutschman, and Vazquez to Red Sox for 81 games worth of Boston Creme Pies for the concession stands. Well done front office! 

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Plus WAR doesn't justify enough the defense & intangibles which is essential to catching. & he's considered by most here as a backup catcher. His defense including his intangibles is always dependable, his durability plus scoring a few runs here & there & getting some game-winners what more do you need from a backup catcher he's not a DH, defense matters. Good point NYCTK, why do so many hate him, it's not his fault that Falvey overpaid him (I'm afraid when you put money in Falvey's hands).

I'm not trying to be combative, honestly want to know your feelings on the below numbers. I agree catching defense matters, but isn't the point of catcher defense to improve the pitching staff so they give up fewer runs? Back-to-back years Jeffers has had the better ERA and RA9 while pretty evenly splitting catching duties (both starting 81 games last year) and having neither catcher get special privileges of catching superior pitchers. Based on these numbers do you truly feel Vazquez is the defensive catcher on the Twins staff?

2023:
Vazquez- ERA: 4.09 RA9: 4.28
Jeffers-    ERA: 3.67 RA9: 3.86

2024:
Vazquez- ERA: 4.34 RA9: 4.63
Jeffers-    ERA: 4.17 RA9: 4.54

[NYCTK]

37 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm not trying to cut payroll for them I'm just trying to have an adult conversation based on the general 130-140 million we all assume they've set. I know you hate them and the rich and all that. It's not productive to have this conversation outside of the reality they set forth for the payroll.

I can appreciate the desire to have the conversation. I just think it is entirely a waste of time. You get rid of him, ok, and then you have to pay his replacement. I know backup catchers are cheaper than other positions, but they're not nothing. And who's to say they'd be as good/dependable as the 31st best catcher in baseball last season? 

 

40 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You can call him a backup all you want, but he's never been a backup here.

How many games did he play in the 2023 playoffs? 

[Riverbrian]

9 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

This is obviously a move before more moves. We trade Pablo to Orioles for Rutschman, and Vazquez to Red Sox for 81 games worth of Boston Creme Pies for the concession stands. Well done front office! 

The serving size of Boston Cream Pie is 1/6 slice. 

81 Games worth will certainly have to be stored in a refrigerator. 

[stringer bell]

4 hours ago, MMMordabito said:

"he does make Vazquez or Jeffers even more expendable than they already were"

That is moving from not expendable at all, to possibly expendable if the acquired player pans out.

[Riverbrian]

Just so you all know. 

I am laughing at myself because a catcher that has fallen so far so fast has made my day. 

It's almost like I owned a restaurant in Montevideo Minnesota and Vanilla Ice showed up for a burger. 

As I call my friends all excited. Vanilla Ice is sitting in my restaurant right now!!!     

[Linus]

19 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm not trying to be combative, honestly want to know your feelings on the below numbers. I agree catching defense matters, but isn't the point of catcher defense to improve the pitching staff so they give up fewer runs? Back-to-back years Jeffers has had the better ERA and RA9 while pretty evenly splitting catching duties (both starting 81 games last year) and having neither catcher get special privileges of catching superior pitchers. Based on these numbers do you truly feel Vazquez is the defensive catcher on the Twins staff?

2023:
Vazquez- ERA: 4.09 RA9: 4.28
Jeffers-    ERA: 3.67 RA9: 3.86

2024:
Vazquez- ERA: 4.34 RA9: 4.63
Jeffers-    ERA: 4.17 RA9: 4.54

Yep.  Always call BS when people start pointing to “intangibles” as the primary skill a player brings to the table.

[stringer bell]

The Twins' front office actions tell me they don't believe Camargo is viable as a major league catcher. Whether Gasper is regarded as a catcher or not, the Twins didn't play Camargo last year when they had the chance and now they've acquired a former top prospect who has fallen precipitously. 

It would figure that if the Twins add another position player, they would have to DFA one of Gasper, Camargo or Cartaya. It will say a lot when and if such a move is made. I think it will be Camargo.

On another matter, like @chpettit19, I don't see any significant drop-off from Vázquez to Jeffers and the run-scoring data backs it up. 

[Riverbrian]

9 minutes ago, Linus said:

Yep.  Always call BS when people start pointing to “intangibles” as the primary skill a player brings to the table.

Intangibles are not understandable.

And at 10 million taxable. 

[chpettit19]

24 minutes ago, Linus said:

Yep.  Always call BS when people start pointing to “intangibles” as the primary skill a player brings to the table.

Intangibles are important. I believe in intangibles. They are skill boosters. But they aren't skill creators. And if your main "skill" is your intangibles you should be a coach. In my opinion.

[weitz41]

Gotta love all the right sized payroll gloom on TD this off season. We get a guy that was as high as 14 on MLBs 2023 preseason top 100 for a guy nobody knew was a Twin and he's still a bag of ____....Jeez Juan Soto could play for the Twins for free and someone would complain about his defense or how he's blocking some prosect...

The chances Cartaya turns things around and is a contributor for the Twins in the future are about 1000x getter then the guy who just repeated DSL that they traded for him, He has his warts, if he didn't, he wouldn't have been traded.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Dodger traded him here because he has a better chance of getting and staying in the big leagues then some other offers, they had. IE Vasquez will be gone after the season and Jeffers the season after that with no outstanding catcher on the way.

Anyway, thrilled he's here, I hope the change of scenery works out for the best.