Yankees 5, Twins 1: Umpires Stubbornly Refuse to Award Five Runs for Cool Homer

[ChermesZ]

10 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Ober was, indeed, exasperated because the strike zone seemed to move from inning to inning. There is nothing more frustrating for a pitcher than to not know what the umpire is calling a ball or a strike.

Still, except for pitch count which is very important, the bad calls did not necessarily influence the game. We have all seen egregious calls for the Yankees, especially in New York. This pretty much happens from time to time to all teams when they play the Yankees in New York and I don't believe it is a conscious decision by the umpires. Such is life.

Easy solution.  We can track missed calls…just give extra draft picks in round 4 of the draft to offset systemic bias in umpiring.

[PatG]

5 minutes ago, Patzky said:

I don't want to see anyone hurt but a soft plunk on Stantons keister would rile up the natives 

Just to get them slightly uncomfortable at the plate; move their feet just a bit.

Also, do it to Judge or Stanton and the others will take notice.....

[Doctor Gast]

9 hours ago, strumdatjag said:

Is there anyone other than me who thought the home plate umpire, on the close pitches, clearly favored the Yankee pitchers over the Twins pitchers tonight?

it wasn’t just one or two pitches.  

It happens a lot with NYY, Lucky we have instant review to overturn incorrect calls otherwise that great Lewis/ Miranda play would been safe. The sooner we have an electronic balls/ strikes system the better.

[terrydactyls]

45 minutes ago, PatG said:

IMO, we need "Hrbek pulling Gant off first base for the Out", Moment in Time!!  (I know Gant was Atlanta)

Then get nasty with the Yanks; Can anyone say "inside pitch"??!!

When the North Stars first started playing, they lost to the Boston Bruins for about the first 150 games (slight exaggeration) and looked awful doing so.  Much like the current Twins-Yankees situation.  Then it all changed.  Instead of getting pushed around for the entire game like usual, they came of the locker room for the opening faceoff and ran up about 500 minutes of penalties in the first period (slight exaggeration).  After that, the rivalry was pretty even.  I know the Twins can't duplicate that scenario, but Hrbek/Gant and high and tight behavior sure would be a welcome change.  What would I do?  I would call up a marginal pitcher from AA for his MLB debut and have him drill in the back as many Yankees in a row that he can before being ejected.  Then I would give him a large bonus and send him back to AA.

[Cap'n Piranha]

27 minutes ago, h2oface said:

Kinda like Correa last year. Short memory for how good Polanco can and will be.

Polanco was a very good player.  But now he is almost 31, and has seen his strikeout rate increase every year since 2020.  His average EV has declined every year since 2021, as has his hard hit rate.  His contact rate (with the exception of a 0.1 percentage point increase in 2023) has declined every year since 2021, while his swinging strike rate has increased every year since 2020.  He is not the player he once was, likely never will be again, and will probably go the Brian Dozier route—all-star caliber player in his prime who tailed off quickly upon exiting his prime.  Not for nothing, but Dozier’s last truly good year was 2017, the year he turned 30.  There’s a non-zero chance Polanco’s last truly good year will be 2023, the year he turned, you guessed it, 30.

All that said, I would have been fine this offseason keeping Polanco, I certainly didn’t think he HAD to be gone.  My post was more in response to the OP’s assertion that the Polanco trade would go down as one of the worst in Twins history, which is at this point, a comically ridiculous statement.

[Doctor Gast]

Great to have Lewis back! They pitched away from him until they made a mistake & he hit a HR. Hope the rest of the lineup wakes up soon. Didn't understand why they had Miranda playing 1B against a RHP since we had Santana. Nevertheless, the result might have been the same & it was nice seeing him playing there. If Santana can't hit RHPs why have him?

 

[David Maro]

Same old Twins,they see the pinstripes and are a bunch of turtles pulling their heads back inside their shells.Then of course Correa the so called team leader strikes out 4 times.If people think ha we have the Pirates next,good luck.It is time to find something else to root for.

[JD-TWINS]

2 hours ago, William K Johnson said:

Random thoughts - 

-  Was surprised that Phil Cuzzi wasn't assigned to this series, but tonight's home plate umpire did his best to fill in.  There is just a different strike zone for the Yankees.   The ball four call on Judge was atrocious.   An earlier poster indicated that it did not make a difference in the outcome, I disagree.    It ran up Ober's pitch count and frustrated him as well.

- Royce Lewis is a real baseball player

- With the exception of the catcher position, I liked our lineup tonight.   I know we only had two hits, but the defense was good, and that lineup will hit most right-hand pitchers.   The problem is going to be when we switch back to that right hand hitting lineup with Margot, Santana, Farmer and Vasquez.    Lewis will help with that, but those four bats in the lineup are not going to win many games.

- Royce Lewis is a real baseball player

- The Jorge Polanco trade will go down as one of the worst Twins trades ever.   Keep in mind that includes the Bill Smith era.  For the second time in three years the Twins trade a solid major league player to clear room for a prospect (see Gio Urshela).   Mistakes like that are not easily overcome.

- Royce Lewis is a real baseball player

- I realize it is early June but quite honestly, we are playing for a wild card position.   Cleveland will run away with this division.  Better front-line pitching, unexpected contributions from Freeman, Fry and Brennan, and Classe can pitch every day.    Jose Ramirez is the best player in the division and Kwan seems to be over his injury.

- Did I mention that Royce Lewis is a real baseball player?

 

 

So, I yelled at the umpire through my TV on the missed strike 3 to Judge - that’s what fans do. After seeing the replay……Vazquez sets up down and away and Ober throws a slider that backs up and barely catches the zone up & in ……probably only a strike to guys over 6’4”…..the guy missed it but it had no effect in runs scored nor a balloon in pitches thrown. Not really anything other than an irritant relative to the game!

So Classe lost 9 games last year, I believe. He’s been nearly perfect. It’s a long season. The kid that threw last night is pitching through injury and could drop any start the rest of the year - much more potential than with others for injury. They are playing great - no doubt!!! Are they great? I think they are pretty good and finish in the low 90’s for wins. Just my opinion.

Don’t understand the Polanco dismay other than it being sentimental? Polanco has performed worse than Julien. We got 4 players……one pitcher is way more than a long shot, agreed. Gonzalez may become something or we may make him part of another trade - perceived value at a minimum. DeSclafani an obvious bust! Topa is here at least through next year if not longer and he can still bring considerable value. Frankly, there’s no production from the traded player that makes any difference for the Twins - right? 2-3 weeks ago, Polanco was leading the A.L. in K’s and was hitting .196……haven’t looked since.

[Aggies7]

2 hours ago, PatG said:

IMO, we need "Hrbek pulling Gant off first base for the Out", Moment in Time!!  (I know Gant was Atlanta)

Then get nasty with the Yanks; Can anyone say "inside pitch"??!!

I don’t think Ober pitched inside to a right handed hitter more than a time or two all night. And they were probably mistake pitches…

[DJL44]

3 hours ago, William K Johnson said:

- The Jorge Polanco trade will go down as one of the worst Twins trades ever.   Keep in mind that includes the Bill Smith era.  For the second time in three years the Twins trade a solid major league player to clear room for a prospect (see Gio Urshela).   Mistakes like that are not easily overcome.

Jorge Polanco has been awful this season and is now (predictably) on the injured list. Gio Urshela had a WAR of 0.8 and an $8.4M salary for the Angels after the Twins traded him away. Both of those trades look even better with hindsight than they did on the day the trade happened.

[Whitey333]

Yes the ump missed some balls and strikes..  the worst on on the Judge walk that didn't cost us anything.  If we are being totally honest you will note the Twins pitchers got several pitches called strikes that were outside.  But it is very frustrating I agree.  It did not cost us the game.

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, MABB1959 said:

Especially when trading with the Yankees where it seems we get the short end of the stick.

Yes, Josh Donaldson was a coup for the Yankees.

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, singlesoverwalks said:

If he had been traded for anyone other than Jake Cave you would find a much more sympathetic audience.

Cave was a perfectly serviceable 4th OF his first 2 seasons in MN. Then he fell apart. But just because he finished poorly doesn't mean he wasn't a useful reserve when we acquired him, which was the role he was supposed to play. Gil is rolling this season, but he was a teenager with injury history (missed all of 2016) that hadn't thrown a pitch outside of rookie ball, and the injury history continued, since he needed Tommy John. Sometimes these guys eventually work out, but a lot of the time they don't. The Yankees took a flier on his talent, but it's taken 6 seasons for it to be realized. This isn't the Twins not realizing what they had and throwing away a sure thing, this is a lottery ticket coming home.

That said, I hate the Yankees. I hate playing the Yankees, I hate losing to the Yankees, I hate feeling like we're never going to get a fair shake against the Yankees, I hate their stupid ballpark where the best seats are never filled for the opening pitch and seem to be half-empty most of the game, along with it's ridiculous short porch in RF. I hate the fact that they can buy themselves out of any mistake they make. I hate the Yankees.

but I love Royce Lewis.

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Can we get over the Gil trade, he never even played for a Twins minor league team and had pitched all of 65 innings in the Dominican league in three years. Maybe give the Yanks credit for developing an injury prone ball throwing machine into a dominant starting pitcher for now.

How about getting over ALL the trades the Twins made in the past 10 years. Do other teams fans whine as much about players they traded away as Twins fans?

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

the OP’s assertion that the Polanco trade would go down as one of the worst in Twins history, which is at this point, a comically ridiculous statement.

Right. If the Polanco trade is the worst trade in Twins history then the Twins are the best team in the history of MLB at making trades.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

Didn't understand why they had Miranda playing 1B against a RHP since we had Santana. Nevertheless, the result might have been the same & it was nice seeing him playing there. If Santana can't hit RHPs why have him?

Santana hits lefties best. He has for several seasons. Miranda is a much better choice at 1B vs RHP. Miranda should move to DH vs LHP and let Santana play 1B.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

12 hours ago, strumdatjag said:

Is there anyone other than me who thought the home plate umpire, on the close pitches, clearly favored the Yankee pitchers over the Twins pitchers tonight?

it wasn’t just one or two pitches.  

[LambchoP]

I don't know if it's Baldelli's decision or management, but this obsession with platooning, leaving someone like Vasquez to hit in the 8th inning when Jeffers was available is just ridiculous. Day after day well see our best hitters sitting in favor of our worst hitters, just because of which side they hit from. I don't get it. Vasquez and Margot at a minimum need to go. We have other options that can't be any worse. I sadly also think Thielbar is cooked. Any relief pitcher with a 6 era would be DFAd already on a contending team.

[jmlease1]

3 hours ago, William K Johnson said:

- The Jorge Polanco trade will go down as one of the worst Twins trades ever.   Keep in mind that includes the Bill Smith era.  For the second time in three years the Twins trade a solid major league player to clear room for a prospect (see Gio Urshela).   Mistakes like that are not easily overcome.

 

Seems doubtful. I loved Polanco, who I think deserves consideration for the Twins Hall of Fame for his many seasons of excellent service. But he's been terrible for Seattle this season while carrying a $10M salary. Unless he turns it around drastically in the second half, they're probably going to decline his option for 2025. (he looked totally lost at the plate when he came home to play us, going 2-18 with no walks and 7 K's too and it's not like he's hit poorly at Target Field) The market was lower for Polanco than most of us here expected; the rest of the league saw a declining player who was likely to have injury problems...so far they've been right.

We certainly didn't miss Urshela once Royce Lewis arrived; they played about the same about last season and Royce crushed him in every metric. And Miranda has shown why the Twins had confidence in him and were ready to move off Urshela in the first place now that he's healthy again. Urshela attracted little attention in free agency, is increasingly sliding down the defensive scale, and doesn't hit enough for the positions he's playing. he only looks ok in Detroit because of the poor alternatives and is cheap.

i think both of these decisions are looking like the right ones and certainly haven't been hard to overcome.

[MABB1959]

54 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Yes, Josh Donaldson was a coup for the Yankees.

What about Hicks for John Ryan Murphy?

[bean5302]

9 hours ago, Ted Schwerzler said:

"management's failure" is a wild way to define an ownership group that took away all spending power.

I've stated this time and again. Falvey blew $20MM on backups and fringy platoon guys while keeping Kepler and Vazquez costing us another $20MM of emergency spending reserves. It's Falvey's job to know what his budget is and what he needs.
1) Starting caliber center fielder to back up Byron Buxton (fail)
2) RHH power bat (fail)
3) Front end starter (fail)

Sonny Gray is earning $10MM this year. 3.00 ERA, 2.64 FIP, 2.48 xFIP. 12.16 K/9, 2.37 BB/9 EASILY better than any pitcher we have.
JD Martinez is earning $4.5MM this year.
 

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, bean5302 said:

I've stated this time and again. Falvey blew $20MM on backups and fringy platoon guys while keeping Kepler and Vazquez costing us another $20MM of emergency spending reserves. It's Falvey's job to know what his budget is and what he needs.
1) Starting caliber center fielder to back up Byron Buxton (fail)
2) RHH power bat (fail)
3) Front end starter (fail)

Sonny Gray is earning $10MM this year. 3.00 ERA, 2.64 FIP, 2.48 xFIP. 12.16 K/9, 2.37 BB/9 EASILY better than any pitcher we have.
JD Martinez is earning $4.5MM this year.
 

How would you have gotten rid of Vazquez?

[bean5302]

4 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

How would you have gotten rid of Vazquez?

If Falvey had to, packaged prospects to dump his salary, but I don't think it would have taken much. Vazquez is worthless at this point, but before the season, the Twins could have picked up Joey Bart from San Francisco as an adequate backup, sent Vazquez and a 15-20 grade prospect. Obviously, that trade would look especially good in hindsight, but there were other options of a similar nature.

[DJL44]

31 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

What about Hicks for John Ryan Murphy?

What about Eric Milton and Cristian Guzman for Chuck Knoblauch?

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

Seems doubtful. I loved Polanco, who I think deserves consideration for the Twins Hall of Fame for his many seasons of excellent service. But he's been terrible for Seattle this season while carrying a $10M salary. Unless he turns it around drastically in the second half, they're probably going to decline his option for 2025. (he looked totally lost at the plate when he came home to play us, going 2-18 with no walks and 7 K's too and it's not like he's hit poorly at Target Field) The market was lower for Polanco than most of us here expected; the rest of the league saw a declining player who was likely to have injury problems...so far they've been right.

We certainly didn't miss Urshela once Royce Lewis arrived; they played about the same about last season and Royce crushed him in every metric. And Miranda has shown why the Twins had confidence in him and were ready to move off Urshela in the first place now that he's healthy again. Urshela attracted little attention in free agency, is increasingly sliding down the defensive scale, and doesn't hit enough for the positions he's playing. he only looks ok in Detroit because of the poor alternatives and is cheap.

i think both of these decisions are looking like the right ones and certainly haven't been hard to overcome.

I don't think the trade will go down as one the the Twins worst or possibly even a bad trade, If Gabriel Gonzalez works out at all and Topa is decent (at some point) people will quickly forget it cost 10 million dollars. The trade was made because the Twins picked up Polanco's option and thus were forced to trade him. It could go down as one of the worst decisions this front office as made because of none of the players work out the trade was made because they picked up the option, and after that pretty much had to make the trade.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, LambchoP said:

Vasquez and Margot at a minimum need to go. We have other options that can't be any worse.

In the case of Vazquez the Twins have Jair Camargo, who just came back after injury, and a whole lot of other catchers who hit and field worse than Vazquez. Camargo is likely to have an OPS around 600 with defense worse than Vazquez. At best he's a push.

[Schmoeman5]

3 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

When the North Stars first started playing, they lost to the Boston Bruins for about the first 150 games (slight exaggeration) and looked awful doing so.  Much like the current Twins-Yankees situation.  Then it all changed.  Instead of getting pushed around for the entire game like usual, they came of the locker room for the opening faceoff and ran up about 500 minutes of penalties in the first period (slight exaggeration).  After that, the rivalry was pretty even.  I know the Twins can't duplicate that scenario, but Hrbek/Gant and high and tight behavior sure would be a welcome change.  What would I do?  I would call up a marginal pitcher from AA for his MLB debut and have him drill in the back as many Yankees in a row that he can before being ejected.  Then I would give him a large bonus and send him back to AA.

So this is whats needed to let them Yankees know that these Twins won't be pushed around anymore.  How about that!

[python85]

4 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

or maybe the Twins actually develop a young player like that into a viable starting pitcher

You mean like Bailey Ober? He seems viable to me. Or Joe Ryan? Or SWR? I know the last two were trades, but they certainly haven't regressed since they got in the organization. 

[TwinsDr2021]

18 minutes ago, python85 said:

You mean like Bailey Ober? He seems viable to me. Or Joe Ryan? Or SWR? I know the last two were trades, but they certainly haven't regressed since they got in the organization. 

I guess you completely missed the point on developing a viable young starting pitcher. When the Yankees acquired Gil he was 20 and hadn't played in the minor leagues. Ober was a three year college player, Ryan was a 4 year college player and had pitched multiple years in other teams minors, SWR had pitched multiple years in other teams minors but I will give you he was young but also a HIGHLY rated prospect prior to getting to MN. My statement wasn't to take anything away from the Twins for these three pitchers, but to point out the FACT that they haven't developed a pitcher similar to Gil, since Berrios?

[jmlease1]

2 hours ago, bean5302 said:

I've stated this time and again. Falvey blew $20MM on backups and fringy platoon guys while keeping Kepler and Vazquez costing us another $20MM of emergency spending reserves. It's Falvey's job to know what his budget is and what he needs.
1) Starting caliber center fielder to back up Byron Buxton (fail)
2) RHH power bat (fail)
3) Front end starter (fail)

Sonny Gray is earning $10MM this year. 3.00 ERA, 2.64 FIP, 2.48 xFIP. 12.16 K/9, 2.37 BB/9 EASILY better than any pitcher we have.
JD Martinez is earning $4.5MM this year.
 

Sonny Gray is also making $60M guaranteed over the next 2 years and has an option for 2027 that will cost $5M to decline, so while they might have been able to structure a deal that would have kept the 2024 number around $10M, let's not pretend for a minute that Sonny Gray only costs $10M.