Guardians 5, Twins 2 (F/10): Gray's Gem Goes to Waste in Extras

[Blyleven2011]

4 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Plenty of blame to go around, but IMO putting Funderbunk into that situation was just plain bad managing. 

Worse than bad. Please don't try to tell me "managers don't matter."

Worst loss of the year. 

In order for this manager to win the players all need to have career years , see 2019 stats ...

[jjotto]

4 hours ago, rickyriolo said:

Cleveland may well win the division as the Twins continue to give away ball games.

Jamie Quirk is going to die laughing…

[terrydactyls]

5 hours ago, UK Twin said:

TBH the title of this could be "Rocco Baldelli beats the Twins, 5-2" because he pretty much single handedly handed this game to Cleveland with some of the most inept game management I've ever seen. Sonny Gray should have pitched the 8th inning but I could at least see why he went to the bullpen. But Jax shouldn't have been taken out for Thielbar - Kwan hits righties and lefties pretty much equally well. But Thielbar managed to limit the damage to one run and OK, we're still in front. 

The 9th inning is the only reason why Baldelli doesn't get ALL the blame - Duran deserves some with a simply wretched wild pitch with 2 strikes on the batter with 2 out. I think Naylor reaches even if the swinging strike had been spotted so the run would have scored anyway.

 

And so to extras. Pagan comes in and does a solid job getting 2 outs without the ghost runner scoring. Naturally Ramirez is walked with first base open - no issue with that, obvious move. But what happened next had me shaking my head in disbelief. Not learning his lesson from the 8th inning, Baldelli is determined to have a lefty v lefty matchup. So much so he calls for Funderburk, a lefty who has only thrown a handful of pitches at MLB level. What happened next was inevitable. You cannot call for such an inexperienced rookie for a situation like that in any situation. You've got to trust your veteran to get the job done, even if it is Pagan. Pagan was actually in a nice groove, his fastball had good life on it. Trust him to do the job. Very unfair to expect Funderburk to do the job in that situation. This is Rocco's biggest flaw - trying so desperately hard to get, statistically, the ideal match up. He was so blinded by that today it cost us the game and gives Cleveland a huge boost. Let's just hope the 5 game lead doesn't get eroded over the next month. 

If Baldelli had left Pagan in the game and the same result happened, you would be complaining that Baldelli never should have left Pagan in the game, especially with a left hander ready in the bullpen.  20/20 hindsight is pretty accurate, ain't it?

[Aerodeliria]

I've defended Rocco more this year than in the past couple of years, but pulling Gray in a game where he's dealing, and has only thrown 85 pitches, is meant to do what? Piss Gray off? I'm sure that was achieved. 

[jorgenswest]

I wonder if the front office has the message yet that Gallo is of little use. Rocco certainly is having a hard time finding a use for him. He is pinch hit for by a right handed hitter that doesn’t hit right handed well. Baldelli probably assessed that Luplow had a better chance than Gallo in that spot. It is hard to disagree.

If Baldelli doesn’t trust Gallo to hit in that spot where would he use him. This isn’t the first time that he pinch hit for Gallo reverse platoon though I think the other times it was Solano batting. Hopefully using Luplow there sent the message that he needs a better option. Choosing between Gallo and Luplow there is a no win situation.

His options in the pen have been thin also. Funderburk was put in a high leverage situation and couldn’t command the ball today. I think he will better the next time but the Twins do need to find out if Funderburk is somebody that can be trusted in the playoffs. Brock Stewart was also used late game early in his tenure (3rd game?) and I think walked three White Sox. He settled down more after that,

 

[knothole61]

6 hours ago, Hubie29 said:

To all the baseball doctors out there.  What is wrong with me? 62 y/o male. Grew up with Halsey Hall, and of course the best of all time Herb Carneal. I was ecstatic when the Twins won and it took me hours to get over a loss.  It was like this up until about 3 years ago. Slowly but surely, I am losing interest and affection for my partner, the Twins. I don't get excited with a win anymore, and don't really care if they lose.  Playoffs were the ultimate reward, couldn't get any better than that.  We have almost clinched the division by default this year, and I am not even excited about it.  Lost today, by typical means, and it doesn't bother me at all. Any other old timers have this disease? Have you gotten treated for it? Is there a cure? 

Hubie, "

"Love is not love 

Which alters when it alteration finds, 

Or bends with the remover to remove. 

O no! it is an ever-fixed mark 

That looks on tempests and is never shaken;

...Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, 

But bears it out even to the edge of doom." 

                                                                          W.S.

 

[beckmt]

i don't claim to know the rules, but if they ask the 3rd base umpire, it was clear Naylor swung and did not get to first, (because of the umps).  I don't know how an inadvertent play stop is ruled, but Rocco should have had Jeffers throw to first and then ask the 3rd base umpire if he swung (he clearly did).  Now this probably gets both managers appealing the play and the ruling would be interesting.  Maybe the Twins get a do over be cause of inadvertent umpire error.  

Maybe someone who knows better than me can weigh in. 

[BH67]

7 hours ago, rickyriolo said:

Cleveland may well win the division as the Twins continue to give away ball games. We need a closer now as Duran has lost it

Duran is that closer. Today he didn't do his job, and unfortunately a closer not doing his job is often the biggest contributor to losing a game. Given a huge opportunity, Jhoan blinked. But that's our horse, and we ride him as long as he stays healthy. Hopefully he figures it out mechanically...and emotionally.

[theBOMisthebomb]

5 hours ago, beckmt said:

i don't claim to know the rules, but if they ask the 3rd base umpire, it was clear Naylor swung and did not get to first, (because of the umps).  I don't know how an inadvertent play stop is ruled, but Rocco should have had Jeffers throw to first and then ask the 3rd base umpire if he swung (he clearly did).  Now this probably gets both managers appealing the play and the ruling would be interesting.  Maybe the Twins get a do over be cause of inadvertent umpire error.  

Maybe someone who knows better than me can weigh in. 

Here is what I believe is the applicable rule. Good luck sorting out what the umps say what would have happened since the check swing wasn't initially questioned and the play naturally stopped. 

8.02 Appeal of Umpire Decisions

(a) Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as, but

not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a

pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is

final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to

any such judgment decisions.

Rule 8.02(a) Comment: Players leaving their position in the

field or on base, or managers or coaches leaving the bench or

coaches box, to argue on BALLS AND STRIKES will not be

permitted. They should be warned if they start for the plate to

protest the call. If they continue, they will be ejected from the

game.

(b) If there is reasonable doubt that any umpire’s decision may be

in conflict with the rules, the manager may appeal the decision

and ask that a correct ruling be made. Such appeal shall be

made only to the umpire who made the protested decision.

(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may

ask another umpire for information before making a final deci-

sion. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere

with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the

umpire making it. If the umpires consult after a play and

change a call that had been made, then they have the authority

to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier

call that they are reversing, including placing runners where

they think those runners would have been after the play, had

the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding

interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the play;

failures of runners to tag up based upon the initial call on the

field; runners passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all

in the discretion of the umpires. No player, manager or coach

shall be permitted to argue the exercise of the umpires’ discretion in resolving the play and any person so arguing shall be

subject to ejection. Notwithstanding the foregoing, correction

of a missed ball-strike count shall not be permitted after a pitch

is thrown to a subsequent batter, or in the case of the final bat-

ter of an inning or game, after all infielders of the defensive

team leave fair territory.

Rule 8.02(c) Comment: A manager is permitted to ask the

umpires for an explanation of the play and how the umpires

have exercised their discretion to eliminate the results and con-

sequences of the earlier call that the umpires are reversing.

Once the umpires explain the result of the play, however, no

one is permitted to argue that the umpires should have exercised their discretion in a different manner.

The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask

his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls

the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The

manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper

call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field

umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire

and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a

ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information

about a half swing.

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball

and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to

a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the

base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

Appeals on a half swing must be made before the next pitch, or

any play or attempted play. If the half swing occurs during a

play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before

all infielders of the defensive team leave fair territory.

Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base

umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of

a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in

jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher

must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is

reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the

plate umpire.

The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing.

On a half swing, if the manager comes out to argue with first or

third base umpire and if after being warned he persists in arguing,

he can be ejected as he is now arguing over a called ball or strike.

[Doctor Wu]

we can all justifiably moan about the bullpen in that game, but on the other side of the coin we only managed 4 hits. Not going to win many games with an offense like that. And oh yeah, Correa hit into another double play! At least he's leading the league in one category this year. 

[William K Johnson]

Next month as we watch Cleveland celebrate another Central title, we will look back at this game.     Can anyone really blame Sonny Gray for wanting to pitch somewhere else next season?

[Jeff D.]

Mr. Baldelli, what a manager. He insists on the Jax - Duran combo and consistently we end with blown games that waste tremendous pitching. We will continue to be limited with the team's potential as long as this computer whiz guy is leading the club in the dugout. 

Twins Geezer..........out!

Go Twins!

[TwinsDr2021]

Geez, if only there would have been a way for the Twins to upgrade their bullpen.

[beterday]

12 hours ago, Oldtimer said:

Yes...I'm with you.

I keep wishing I could quit caring, but when Carlos Correa swings and misses on a pitch 3 feet outside, I still scream, "Why do you swing at that"?  And then he looks at a called third strike right down the middle that Roy Smalley doesn't even bother the tell us, "He doesn't miss that very often", causes double the frustration.   Day game yesterday, still working so I had to miss game, and first thing I checked was the score and my heart sank when I read they lost.  Herb Carneal, Halsey Hall, (wasn't the third guy Ray Scott?) in the front seat of a Nash Rambler in the early 60s and I'm still cursed with a passion for the Twins - has lead to a most unsatisfying year, but still hoping.

 

[HoskenPowell]

NO way in the world Gray comes back next year....He cant get away from this manager fast enough.......should have traded him at all star break for some young lottery tickets. Twins are NOT going anywhere in the playoffs and Grays gone 100% for sure.  He's missed out on about 10 wins in his time here with Baldellis game plans and our failures in the pen.  

[Woof Bronzer]

30 minutes ago, beterday said:

I keep wishing I could quit caring, but when Carlos Correa swings and misses on a pitch 3 feet outside,

 

Anyone know if plantar fascitis causes hitters to swing at terrible pitches?  

[Hubie29]

38 minutes ago, beterday said:

I keep wishing I could quit caring, but when Carlos Correa swings and misses on a pitch 3 feet outside, I still scream, "Why do you swing at that"?  And then he looks at a called third strike right down the middle that Roy Smalley doesn't even bother the tell us, "He doesn't miss that very often", causes double the frustration.   Day game yesterday, still working so I had to miss game, and first thing I checked was the score and my heart sank when I read they lost.  Herb Carneal, Halsey Hall, (wasn't the third guy Ray Scott?) in the front seat of a Nash Rambler in the early 60s and I'm still cursed with a passion for the Twins - has lead to a most unsatisfying year, but still hoping.

 

You are correct, it was Ray Scott. He was also excellent, but I only mentioned Halsey and Herb. Maybe it's nostalgia I long for, but this era and new wave decisions made from technological data drives me crazy. And a manager who has no clue is the nail in the coffin. I hope I can get over this 3 year sickness, cuz baseball is still the greatest game ever! (Coached our Jr. Legion team to the state tournament in Granite Falls this year. Nothing better than amateur baseball.)

[CRF]

We only got 4 hits...that's not gonna cut it. There's just no consistency from game to game, and I believe the constant lineup changes affect that. I don't agree with that and never will. Gray certainly deserved better, but he's kind of had bad luck that way all season. Yes, this bullpen is really hurting us right now...every single one of them. I also don't like throwing Funderburk into that situation. There's still time for this team to blow their lead. I don't expect it, but it's happened before. This road trip is crucial! 

[David Maro]

Next 6 games they can't play dumb sloppy baseball like the last 2 games. Why Correa thought it was a good idea to let a pop up hit the ground was dumb. Why would you want to put the leading base stealer on. Duran throwing a pitch behind the batter to the backstop was dumb. I don't think anyone in the ballpark knew what happened or how to rule on it. MAT poor play turning a single into a double should of never happened. Rocco pulling Pagan for Funderburk was a dumb move. Its time for him to take some of the blame for the team's up and down play. This division is still not a sure thing. They could go 0-6 easily against Texas and Cleveland. Remember there is some bad blood with Texas. Hitters being hit by pitches,both benches getting warnings.

[jmlease1]

11 hours ago, Aerodeliria said:

I've defended Rocco more this year than in the past couple of years, but pulling Gray in a game where he's dealing, and has only thrown 85 pitches, is meant to do what? Piss Gray off? I'm sure that was achieved. 

I get that people are now conditioned to think only about pitch count, but Gray hardly had a great 7th inning. he got through it, but walked the leadoff man, nearly beaned a guy, hucked a seriously wild pitch, and couldn't figure out what to do with the rock in his shoe until the trainer told him to take it out. 

Gray got through 7, which was great. It should have been enough. the bullpen blew it when they only needed to get 2 innings. A rested Duran couldn't close the game, which really sucks...but on what planet is that Rocco's fault? He's the best reliever we have, has been one of the best in baseball until recently, has ridiculous, electric stuff...and couldn't close the game.

I'm also really weary of the "Sonny Gray's mad!" nonsense and how we've guaranteed he's gone after this season because of how we've supposedly mismanaged him and treated him poorly and angered him by taking him out of games before he wanted to go, blah blah blah. Go back and take a look at Sonny Gray's career: he hasn't thrown 200 innings since he was 25. He hasn't been a guy who goes deep into games, and has been prone to the later inning blow-up once hitters have gotten dialed in against him. But despite all the complaints people are making about how he's being mistreated...he's having one of the best season of his career. He's on pace to throw more innings than in any season since he was 25. he's leading the league in ERA, ERA+, and FIP. He's never going to want to come out of a game: his arm could get ripped off by a combine harvester and he'd be all "give me a second with this staple gun and I can pitch", so you can't take his opinion at face value. They've handled him very well this season: he's on pace to hit 30+ starts, clear 175 IP (likely surpassing anything he's done since he was 25), has been effective and consistent, and is entering September healthy. If he leaves in the off-season it's because someone makes him a 4-5 year offer at $18-20M+ AAV, not because they've "pissed him off". (and if he or anyone else thinks that his next club is going to handle him much differently...dream on)

It's a disappointing loss. The offense was poor again and really only Polanco and Solano had good days out there. (Wallner was ok) Jeffers was brutal (and has really cooled off over the last 2 weeks), but Kepler, Correa, Julien, and Lewis didn't do anything either. After a really nice run, the bats have gone quiet at the worst possible time. They need to pick it back up.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

I keep going back and forth on "Bring on the playoffs" and "I hope Cleveland wins this thing so we don't get embarrassed in the playoffs, and continue the losing streak" . After the last two games I'm more firmly in the latter.