Braves 3, Twins 0: The Bats Disappear Once Again, Waste a Solid Maeda Start

[Whitey333]

This team looks like it's hit rock bottom.  But this has been going on for the third season now.  This isn't new Herr.  But I will admit it's about as bad as it has been.  They continue to play listless undisciplined baseball.  Our veterans haven't played anywhere near veteran status.  I used to get mad when Baldelli had Buxton and or Correa out of tge lineup.  Now I'm glad when they are not playing.  They are hurting the team especially Buxton.  Kepler and Gallo should be gone immediately.  The only thing g they are accomplishing is taking playing time away from some of our younger developing players.  This was created by the FO and their unwillingness ir inability to improve the team says a lot.  There never seems to be any accountability  for this poor play.  Nothing changes with this team.  They continue to play boring baseball with no sense of urgency.  They look and play like they don't care.  That's about the worst thing to say about a team.  That is a direct reflection on the manager and Front Office.

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[sampleSizeOfOne]

Walp.

 

Sorry i was a no show for the game thread....

 

And first place was nice while it lasted.

 

(just checked in on the score, and Cleveland has a 13 run lead in the 9th.)

[Danchat]

1 hour ago, LastOnePicked said:

No, I think he merely let them have a "players only" meeting. Besides, does this sound like Rocco? I can't even imagine him tearing into a bag of chips.

It seems to me he's no longer hiding his frustration with the team anymore:

Not to mention how he's been ejected a couple times the past week. I know folks like to hate on Rocco for being bland and overbearingly politically correct in his post-game pressers, but I think behind the scenes he has been signing a different tune. I have to wonder if deep down he is thinking "why the heck did we hire a High A coach to be our major league batting coach"?

[curt1965]

2 points-one about today’s game. Why didn’t Rocco pinch hit for Solano with Julien in the 5th in the middle of the Twins “rally?” He pinch hit for Julien and AK in the 2nd inning recently!

The point was made-quite accurately-how bad the Twins have been  historically  bad against LH pitching in the past and continuing to this year. I think adding someone this year to combat this was like their #1 priority. What did they do? Added Solano and Taylor (on the cheap)? This one is on the FO!

[VivaBomboRivera!]

8 hours ago, Danchat said:

Wow, that's a disgusting chart. The hitters really mailed it in today.

Sounds like Rocco tore into them behind closed doors, seeing as how the media wasn't allowed in the locker room after the game. I'd guess he's at his wit's end.

Is something rotten in the state of Minnesota?

By now most people are tired of conspiracy theories, but that doesn't mean the Black Sox were not real. Sports gambling is on the rise, and the consistently poor performance of a lineup that ought to do better is starting to look suspicious.

Perhaps we need to prove that the Twins lame effort really is a combination of age, injury, overthinking, carelessness and/or lack of talent. They may just all be bad at the same time, and that certainly isn't the worst reason for so many batters to be watching pitches in the happy zone sail past them.

[Karbo]

14 hours ago, RJA said:

Frankly, Rocco should go.  I am not saying he doesn't have strengths, but this team does not play with any sense of urgency, and does not make adjustments.  He is a "player's manager", but I suggest that this team needs someone who demands more accountability and has a stronger personality.  As Gleeman pointed out, since May we have the third worst record in the American League.  Watching this team flail away at the plate makes them almost unwatchable.  Yes, the players need to perform, but it is a manager's job to make sure they do.  Rocco has been unable to do that for whatever reason.  The buck stops with him with regard to onfield performance.  And for heaven's sake, why are we still running Kepler and Gallo out there instead of Wallner?  The FO has also bungled things in a major way, giving away Steer, Povich, CES and others for injured and/or players with little history of performance.  And, dare I mention Pagan?  I am almost afraid of what they might do at this trade deadline.  It is truly a sad situation.  

I agree that Rocco should go. But the FO has to take a big share of the blame for the construction of the team. There mantra of picking up hitters based on how they drive the ball is fine for the heart of the lineup, but you need guys with OBA to set the table. And the strikeouts! Look at in zone contact rate and its shameful. Time for Kepler and Gallo to go to make room for Larnach and Wallner. They should also be working on moving Julien to 1st base. When Polo comes back, send Julien down to work exclusively at 1st. The kids are just plain better at this point then the Vets.

[LastOnePicked]

6 hours ago, Danchat said:

I know folks like to hate on Rocco for being bland and overbearingly politically correct in his post-game pressers, but I think behind the scenes he has been signing a different tune.

I don't hate on Rocco, certainly not for being professional or thoughtful. I merely hate having him as the Twins manager. He's not a leader of men. Go back and watch the "egg toss" episode of the Twins spring promotional videos. Rocco is a college student activities coordinator. He's not big league coach material. You can tell that the players are barely listening to him when he talks. And he says a lot, but very little with clarity or emphasis.

[Doctor Wu]

Well, we were playing the Braves what did anyone expect? Okay, a close game or two might have been interesting, but the bottom line is that current Twins team is not very competitive. Certainly not one that can win a playoff series. If we miraculously capture the Central, it's a given that we will be swept again in the first round. Hey, at this point we are all VERY frustrated. I can't totally blame the front office. They managed to cobble together a pretty good team on paper, but with all the injuries, combined with lackluster performances (STRIKEOUTS!!!!), we are playing poorly. I'm sitting on the fence in regards to Rocco. I can't blame him for the strikeouts or groundouts, or hitting into double plays, but if getting rid of him and putting a better motivator/communicator in charge will help right this ship, I'm all for it. But as so many others have said, we need some changes, and the sooner the better. 

[wabene]

58 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

I don't hate on Rocco, certainly not for being professional or thoughtful. I merely hate having him as the Twins manager. He's not a leader of men. Go back and watch the "egg toss" episode of the Twins spring promotional videos. Rocco is a college student activities coordinator. He's not big league coach material. You can tell that the players are barely listening to him when he talks. And he says a lot, but very little with clarity or emphasis.

"I TOLD YOU TO TOSS THAT F'IN EGG SOLDIER!! NOW GET DOWN AND GIVE ME FIFTY AND SOMEONE HOLD HIS G'DAMN EGG!! ARRRGGG!! 

[Blyleven2011]

12 hours ago, CRF said:

Agree...he talks a lot, but doesn't say anything. 

Him and the FO  are practicing  with their mumble jumble  , don't you know they're going into politics  ....

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

12 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

Same reason that Gallo and Kepler play instead of Wallner and Larnach - we have no willingness to step up, make changes, force the issues.  Blah - boring - sit back and hope for the best.  Yuck.

Sad, but incredibly true.

[big dog]

There need to be multiple and significant personnel changes, now. Will they work? I don't know, but things can't get much worse.

When you have a bad plan, continuing to do it while "trying harder" isn't much of a choice.

I haven't felt this badly about the team since the days when Calvin Griffith would play anyone who would work for minimum wage.

[big dog]

I just sent an email to the fan feedback account, expressing my disappointment. I'm sure the intern who reads it will forward it right to the Pohlads, so hey, problem solved.

[Linus]

It’s not going to get any better. This is the lineup the FO compiled and there isn’t really any changing it. Polo healthy would help and Wallner deserves a shot. After that the cupboard is bare. Larnach can’t hit anything offspeed and Miranda and Julien are DHs. Who else is there?

Anybody have confidence in this FO making the right decisions at the trade deadline?  They do not deserve the chance to start over. They’ve tanked the farm system and compiled an aging roster that can’t hit or run and is mediocre at best in the field. 

[OvertheHill]

I'm retirement age. I honestly wonder if I'll live long enough to see:

• the Twins owners put together a front office that can be at least league average at drafting/talent evaluation, player development, and on-field product,
• a shift in organizational hitting philosophy away from the all and/or mostly nothing approach to plate appearances,
• an renewed emphasis on fundamentals e.g. base running, moving up runners, throwing to the right base, etc.
• some semblance of continuity in line ups, batting orders, if only for the fans sake
• some emphasis on conditioning, wellness and injury prevention so that "injuries" aren't the on-going excuse for everything
• a higher level of outward sincerity towards the fanbase regarding the availability or limitations of players

Posted it before, but I'll repeat - I'd like to feel good about buying my granddaughter a Twins replica jersey, with a players name that would be meaningful to her, but I'm stumped.

I could go on, but you probably got my point. Oh yeah, GO TWINS!

[Mike Sixel]

15 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Buxton ought to restructure his contract if we’ve already seen him max out 

Would you expect teams to pay over performing players more than their contract? I'd consider retiring if I was him, but maybe he thinks he can come back next year?

[Woof Bronzer]

3 hours ago, Doctor Wu said:

Well, we were playing the Braves what did anyone expect? 

Don't think it was intended this way, but one would be hard pressed to find a more damning sentiment about the state of this franchise 6 years into the Falvine era.  

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Would you expect teams to pay over performing players more than their contract? I'd consider retiring if I was him, but maybe he thinks he can come back next year?

No, but players (and managers) do get extensions and reworked contracts before their original contract is up. Usually due to over performance. The twins did take a chance on him considering his prior injury history. And it’s somehow gotten even worse than before. He’s playing, but extremely limited in what he can do.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, OvertheHill said:

 I'd like to feel good about buying my granddaughter a Twins replica jersey, with a players name that would be meaningful to her, but I'm stumped.

 

That might be one of the most profound and damning statements about the state of the Twins I've read on Twins Daily ever.

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

No, but players (and managers) do get extensions and reworked contracts before their original contract is up. Usually due to over performance. The twins did take a chance on him considering his prior injury history. And it’s somehow gotten even worse than before. He’s playing, but extremely limited in what he can do.

You posted Buxton should take less money, do you really think that's realistic? The money is not important to this team, the fact he's not healthy is. He should, IMO, be on the IL until he can play in the field.

[howeda7]

17 hours ago, TwinkieFan4life said:

Players that are "not hurt" are typically medically capable of playing all components of the game.  When a guy (who one year ago was considered among the best fielders in the game) can't play one inning in the field as a late game replacement, they are hurt.  

There is NO ONE on the active roster right now who is less valuable.  Julien, who is awful defensively, is more valuable than Buck because he can attempt to play defense.  Look at his hitting numbers from May and June.  He has been really bad at the plate.  

The only thing keeping him on the roster right now is sunk cost (which is a poor reason).

 

He's hitting a bit the last week. Now is not the time, especially when there are far more worthy candidates ahead of him like Kepler and Gallo.

[TwinkieFan4life]

9 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

He's hitting a bit the last week. Now is not the time, especially when there are far more worthy candidates ahead of him like Kepler and Gallo.

Buck is 1 for 18 in his last 6 games with 8 strikeouts.  He had a big game 7 games ago (2hr).  That game was about it for the month.  In the month of June he hit 6 for 49 with 20 strikeouts and 3 home runs.  This is a player who can only DH.  We could give his at bats to any player regardless of position.  HE HIT 120 and STRUCK OUT 40% OF HIS ABs.  In May he was 15 for 84 with 27 strikeouts and 3hr.

Max has also been bad, but better than Buck in May and June at the plate.  He is also physically capable of playing a position.

[Aggies7]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

You posted Buxton should take less money, do you really think that's realistic? The money is not important to this team, the fact he's not healthy is. He should, IMO, be on the IL until he can play in the field.

I don’t expect him to, but why is the money not important? He’ll make 15 mil every year, that’s 3 times the current league average. 3x the average for what is essentially a DH who won’t steal bases and has appeared in over 100 games only once in his career. Since he doesn’t play the field anymore (and will he ever again), he is technically the second highest paid DH (tied with soler) in the league behind the monstrosity contract that is Miguel Cabrera.

I’m not saying he’s an albatross and I know it won’t happen, I’m just saying.

[howeda7]

1 hour ago, TwinkieFan4life said:

Buck is 1 for 18 in his last 6 games with 8 strikeouts.  He had a big game 7 games ago (2hr).  That game was about it for the month.  In the month of June he hit 6 for 49 with 20 strikeouts and 3 home runs.  This is a player who can only DH.  We could give his at bats to any player regardless of position.  HE HIT 120 and STRUCK OUT 40% OF HIS ABs.  In May he was 15 for 84 with 27 strikeouts and 3hr.

Max has also been bad, but better than Buck in May and June at the plate.  He is also physically capable of playing a position.

Max is bad, has limited to no upside and will not be here next year. Buxton has significant upside if he gets hot and will be here for 5 more years. It's not even a close call who should go out the door first.

[ashbury]

7 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

You posted Buxton should take less money, do you really think that's realistic?

I think* it's the case that MLB contracts of any significant value carry a clause regarding so-called "diminished skills."  It's not often brought into play but here is a link to what happened with Frank Thomas a couple of decades ago. link

I'd imagine the current contract does not specify that Buxton has to play CF specifically, so it depends on how exactly the diminished skills clause is worded.

It's kind of a nuclear option, and the FO would want to think extremely carefully before trying to invoke it; not only could it result in a grievance hearing or a lawsuit, but they'd have to feel sure of where the teammates stand on the matter.  Perhaps "only" $15M for several years isn't enough to justify the risk.

However, actually invoking it is not the only value the clause carries for the team.  It could also be the basis for starting a frank discussion, where a renegotiated contract would be the outcome.

 

* okay, for all I know, such clauses could have been banned by more recent Collective Bargaining Agreements.

[ashbury]

3 hours ago, ashbury said:

I think* it's the case that MLB contracts of any significant value carry a clause regarding so-called "diminished skills."

Replying to my own post, just for simplicity, the current CBA is found online here and Appendix A contains a uniform player's contract.  (Any important contract no doubt contains unique language beyond this.) There are many clauses of course and amateur legal sleuths may enjoy digging through them all, but I found 7(b)(2) in that appendix to contain the language regarding skills, notably, "fail, in the opinion of the Club’s management, to exhibit sufficient skill or competitive ability to qualify or continue as a member of the Club’s team"

(my emphasis)

This specifies contract termination, so like I said. Nuclear Option.  And of course the distinction between "exhibit" versus being injured is going to be fraught.

[TwinkieFan4life]

57 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

Max is bad, has limited to no upside and will not be here next year. Buxton has significant upside if he gets hot and will be here for 5 more years. It's not even a close call who should go out the door first.

They both have no upside.  The contract difference is legitimate.  Buck has a bum knee that apparently can't be addressed with a medical approach or rest.  He is the definition of no upside.

 

 

[VivaBomboRivera!]

8 hours ago, USAFChief said:

  10 hours ago, OvertheHill said:

 I'd like to feel good about buying my granddaughter a Twins replica jersey, with a players name that would be meaningful to her, but I'm stumped.

 

That might be one of the most profound and damning statements about the state of the Twins I've read on Twins Daily ever.

In the same boat. If I were shopping today, I'd only be looking at pitchers' names.

My 2019 vintage Kepler jersey no longer has any shine.  I've been hoodwinked.