Blue Jays 3, Twins 0: Time to Do Something Else

[PDX Twin]

My morning started with elation! The football team I follow ended it's season with a win and qualified for a European competition next year for the first time in 13 years. 

Then the Twins happened. Pathetic performance with all the spirit of a spreadsheet!

[Nashvilletwin]

August and September could be fun. Via the trade deadline or DFA, we get rid of the one year players and our expensive vets - specifically, Gallo, Kepler, Taylor, Solano, Castro, and possibly Polanco.  We actually INVEST in our young players by giving them the ABs and innings to become solid major leaguers. Kiriloff, Larnach, Lewis, Lee, Julien and Wallner should play every day. We then see what we have and build the core for the next several years. And it will be way more fun to watch as well.

Now, if we could just find a manager and coaching staff with a track record of developing young major leaguers……

Btw, Ober should have given up zero runs today - he’s outperforming Lopez and is now our #3.  Varland is a warrior and is a strong #5.  I wonder how long we would have stayed with Maeda and Mahle when Ober and Varland are clearly better?  It took injuries, not strong decision making by our the FO/Manager regime. We will now do the same thing with Wallner and Kepler…..

[Old Crow]

Agree with getting Buck back in CF.  He is still the best outfielder we have and it would open the DH lot to someone that can hit.

[Nashvilletwin]

4 hours ago, rv78 said:

And this is why this team will continue to lose ballgames that matter. Performance means little. If it did mean something Kepler would have got his walking papers before the season even started. As for Wallner, I said when they acquired Gallo that Wallner would have been a better option and they could have used the $11M they spent on Mr .199 and the $4.5M they spent on Taylor, tied that money together at $15.5M for 1 player that could actually hit.

There were so many mistakes and miscues that led to the Arraez trade: namely, the sending of two really good prospects (one of whom is now a very strongly performing major leaguer) for Mahle and, as you point out, the signing of Gallo, and to some degree Taylor. Keeping Kepler as well, possibly.

I wonder if the Marlins would have taken our two Mahle prospects and Kepler and/or Polanco for Lopez? Or, I wonder which FA starter(s) we could have signed with the money we could have saved on Mahle, Gallo, Kepler and possibly Taylor and Polanco as well.

Yeah, I get it, hindsight is 20/20, but the risks were evident at the time all of these decisions were made.  Someone has to be accountable. Oh, that’s right, a big part of the regime just got an extension. Geez. 

[D.C Twins]

1 hour ago, Whitey333 said:

Yes very boring, listless baseball going on three years now.  Players look like they don't care.  Why should they?  They have a manager that appears to not care as long as the plan is followed.  It'd one thing to lose but fir crying out loud do theyveven care how bad they look.  And Juluen made a terrible play for sure. BUT where was Buxton and Kiriloff the next two batters up?  They did nothing.  They had chance to pick up a couple of runs after Julien gaffe but did nothing.  And what are we telling our young players?  Waller reaches base 8 straight tired.  His reward for.actually performing?  Send him back to St. PAUL.  LETS NOT TALK about options he had left.  Let's talk about common sense.  That's where it's point.  The FO and manager don't have much common sense.  What a boring and undisciplined team.  At least we know they can blame it all on bad umpiring and injuries.  They wonder why people are upset.  Do they ever watch their own product?  If our prospects are so good why do they appear to make such little influence on the team?  Enough ranting and raving on my part.  A lot of pent up frustration over the past two and half years.  I continue to hope things get better.  Been waiting for a long time.  When will they ever consistently show any life in them?

"Do they ever watch their own product?"

This is wonderfully insightful question that succinctly encapsulates our overwhelming frustration. 

[D.C Twins]

"We (have) played a disjointed game today past 3 years is what we('ve) done did."

I fixed that for you Rocco! 

[dxpavelka]

Berrios solid.  Woods-Richardson, not so much.  who'dathunkit

 

[dxpavelka]

Don't know why folks are so surprised.  We scored fewer than 700 runs last year and did nothing to improve the offense.  The fact that the offense is not improved is not shocking.  Solano STILL stuck on FIVE rbi.  On a positive note, Garlick being send across the river.

 

[RickOShea]

3 hours ago, PDX Twin said:

Is Rocco gone yet?

What, just days after signing an extension?

[ashbury]

5 minutes ago, RickOShea said:

What, just days after signing an extension?

Days after us finding out.  It happened quietly a while back, for some reason.  Prior to last season, in fact.

[big dog]

1 hour ago, ashbury said:

I am secretly a member of the ownership group. Don’t tell anyone. 

[Rosterman]

Like the players were in the stands. 14 whiffs. A double play a,mongst the 17 balls put in play (of which five were hits). Another half-dozen walks. A lot of looking at the balls going by these days.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

How does Matt Wallner have a negative 0.159 WPA, when he went 2 for 2 plus 2 walks????????????  If this is correct, then I don't have much use for WPA.

[darwin22]

4 hours ago, TwinkieFan4life said:

I can't believe my mind is going here already, and I realize it is unreasonable, but if we continue this way through June do we consider being sellers?

We would be maybe 4 or more games below 500.  We could shop Gallo, Gray, Polanco, Kepler, even Buck if someone is willing to dream on him and give us an offer.  If Maeda and Thielbar prove their health they could be added to the list.  We could let the younger players play (Lee) and add talent around them.

I know this is a depressing thought, but for me less depressing than continuing to invest resources in this lifeless team.

Not an unreasonable thought to express in any way.  This team is to put it mildly rudderless.  Where is the direction from the front office?  Where is the accountability?  This is for the coaching staff as well as the manager.

Unless there is a DRAMATIC turnaround in the next 6 weeks---around the ASB---imo you absolutely explore trade avenues for Gallo, Polanco, Kepler, Gray and possibly Farmer.  I doubt Buxton will be considered to be dealt due to backlash from (younger) fans as well as the fact that I dont see many contending teams willing to ante up fair value for an unproductive bat that offers nothing defensively.

As many are hoping the future of this team lies with our youth.  In the present that would include Lewis, Julien  and to an extent Wallner.  I've seen enough of Kepler.  Time to cut bait with him.  Hopefully, the bat (and glove) of Brooks Lee will prove he's MLB ready by the start of next season.

[Jocko87]

2 hours ago, ashbury said:

Rocco's comments rarely are pointed.  Today, while he threw no individual under the bus, his remarks were pointed.  He's not a fire and brimstone manager, so one can smirk over his use of the word "disjointed," but there was depth to his meaning.  How that translates to better performance, I can't say; this roster has its limitations.

But what are the roster limitations?  Nothing that playing to their capabilities wouldn't overcome.  At least 60% of this roster is playing like crap, 30-40% under ability.  Normalize that a bit and everyone here is delighted. They can comfortably put forth a starting 9 of nothing but highly touted 1st and 2nd round draft picks.  This website is filled with pages upon pages of roster crunch where every choice results in a good player being effected.

What we are seeing is a coaching and leadership problem.  Preparation and approach are abysmal.  Don't let the coaches off the hook even a little bit right now.  There isn't much more we could have asked for from the front office this offseason and certainly nothing that would address what we are seeing now.  Our bullpen woes would almost certainly be eased by a functional lineup.  We would be nervous for October but the FO will act at the trade deadline. 

The front office should be looking at this very carefully as they can't pull many levers outside of the coaching staff starting with Rocco.  I will say I'm seeing a bit more outward frustration, open coaching today with Julien was good to see.  I do believe they like to do most things behind closed doors but sometimes a public callout can be helpful. 

A mild public callout of Correa would send shockwaves through the clubhouse.  Rocco probably needs to put that demon to bed, the backup GM talk is tough for a leader to overcome.  As motioned, he is rarely pointed so he has an opportunity to use a pointed moment to great effect.  I wouldn't be surprised if they could work that out between themselves for effect.  If I were Rocco I would consider it.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Wallner gets on base his last 8 at bats,  uses his rifle arm and throws out a runner at 2B, so the FO sends him down. I could figure out a better way to utilize  Wallner  (like DH or RF and have Buck play CF) and  still activate Kepler. Kepler is a good defender, but brings nothing to the team by way of any observable enthusiasm, and Kepler's constantly pulling the ball has resulted in the phrase,  "Kepler hits a 2 hopper to the second baseman for the final out"  being repeated so often, that Dick Bremer has a recording with a red button which he presses during Kepler's bats, to rest Bremer's voice and so  Bremer's true feelings will not be evident in his voice inflections. With Lewis being activated, the Twins could have traded 35 year old Solano for a really young pitching prospect, or just released Solano.  I don't think there is much danger that Solano would be signed by Miami and win the National League batting title.

[dxpavelka]

1 hour ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

How does Matt Wallner have a negative 0.159 WPA, when he went 2 for 2 plus 2 walks????????????  If this is correct, then I don't have much use for WPA.

advanced analytics are an excellent means of predicting the past

 

[dxpavelka]

41 minutes ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Wallner gets on base his last 8 at bats,  uses his rifle arm and throws out a runner at 2B, so the FO sends him down. I could figure out a better way to utilize  Wallner  (like DH or RF and have Buck play CF) and  still activate Kepler. Kepler is a good defender, but brings nothing to the team by way of any observable enthusiasm, and Kepler's constantly pulling the ball has resulted in the phrase,  "Kepler hits a 2 hopper to the second baseman for the final out"  being repeated so often, that Dick Bremer has a recording with a red button which he presses during Kepler's bats, to rest Bremer's voice and so  Bremer's true feelings will not be evident in his voice inflections. With Lewis being activated, the Twins could have traded 35 year old Solano for a really young pitching prospect, or just released Solano.  I don't think there is much danger that Solano would be signed by Miami and win the National League batting title.

Dude, let's go a little easy on Solano.  He's got FIVE RBI.

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

How does Matt Wallner have a negative 0.159 WPA, when he went 2 for 2 plus 2 walks????????????  If this is correct, then I don't have much use for WPA.

Don't know where the author picks up the WPA numbers on the same day of the game, but that Wallner outcome looks like a straight-up typo, or mistaken copy-paste from somewhere.  I look forward to cross-checking with the game log on baseball-reference.com tomorrow.

You're right to question it, but the instinct to blame the stat itself could be misplaced.

[Parfigliano]

Sending Wallner down at this moment sends a terrible signal to every minor leaguer in the organization.

[Nashvilletwin]

30 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

Sending Wallner down at this moment sends a terrible signal to every minor leaguer in the organization.

This is an excellent point. At the moment I’m not sure several of our prospects might not think they’d have better futures in other organisations. More than a handful of them probably look at Steer and think “ Hey, I’m better than that guy, but I’m still slogging it out in AAA while has beens are brought in to take away my ABs and innings”.  Steer may be the luckiest of them all for being shipped out last season.  

[Doctor Wu]

5 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

This is an excellent point. At the moment I’m not sure several of our prospects might not think they’d have better futures in other organisations. More than a handful of them probably look at Steer and think “ Hey, I’m better than that guy, but I’m still slogging it out in AAA while has beens are brought in to take away my ABs and innings”.  Steer may be the luckiest of them all for being shipped out last season.  

Yeah, I'm sure that Steer is very happy to be starting with the Reds this year. His stats are looking better and better this month. Don't think the Reds are thinking about sending him back to AAA at this point. 

[Major League Ready]

10 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

There were so many mistakes and miscues that led to the Arraez trade: namely, the sending of two really good prospects (one of whom is now a very strongly performing major leaguer) for Mahle and, as you point out, the signing of Gallo, and to some degree Taylor. Keeping Kepler as well, possibly.

I wonder if the Marlins would have taken our two Mahle prospects and Kepler and/or Polanco for Lopez? Or, I wonder which FA starter(s) we could have signed with the money we could have saved on Mahle, Gallo, Kepler and possibly Taylor and Polanco as well.

Yeah, I get it, hindsight is 20/20, but the risks were evident at the time all of these decisions were made.  Someone has to be accountable. Oh, that’s right, a big part of the regime just got an extension. Geez. 

The majority of people here were very supportive of the Mahle trade.  There were loud cries that we had to go for it because we were in 1st place.  There was a minority that wanted BP additions but were against spending that much prospect capital on a team that may have been in 1st place but were definitely not contenders.  

Arraez would have just been another guy standing on base while Buxton and Correa failed to deliver.  Buxton looks lost and Correa has been anemic.  Both were extremely popular signings for most TD followers.

[Major League Ready]

Apparently Rocco is a great leader / motivator of starting pitchers but can't motivate position players.  Apparently getting paid $33M/year does not inspire performance.  Is lack of motivation what influences Buxton to swing at pitches with absolutely no chance of being a strike?

[big dog]

6 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Arraez would have just been another guy standing on base while Buxton and Correa failed to deliver.  Buxton looks lost and Correa has been anemic.  Both were extremely popular signing here for most TD followers.

True- I was really pleased they signed Buxton to that contract.

However, if I'd known that Buxton was only going to be a mediocre DH and not play in the field, my attitude would probably have been different.

The Mahle trade just didn't work out. That happens. Trying to keep Buck healthy so he can play like this...that's not a long-term strategy.

 

[William K Johnson]

Just think, if Polanco is at second and Buxton in center, the game yesterday may still be going on.   

I am rooting for Urshela and Arraez to both win batting titles.   It would have to be the first time a team has traded both batting title champs prior to a season.   Oh well, we still have Miranda.

Seriously, time to cut the crap and put Buxton in centerfield.   If he gets hurt, so be it, we deal with it then.   Apparently, the DH role does not suit him.    Taylor is a late inning defensive replacement if even at that.    

With Lewis returning and hopefully playing third base, why don't we move Farmer to second and send Julien down?    Instead we send a guy down who was the only consistent hitter in the lineup this weekend.    Farmer holds the position until Polanco is back.  Put Buxton in center, Kepler in right and DH Wallner and Solano.   Gallo in left, Kiriloff at first.   This stuff is not that hard.  

[Karbo]

Twins hitters swing at so many non-competitive pitches that other teams let go, at times I wonder if they are closing their eyes and swinging hard on the chance they hit it. Swinging at pitches 6-8 inches outside or balls in the dirt? Yes hitting a round ball with a round stick is hard, but these guys get paid so much money I'd think they could do better. 

Also, the league needs to do something about umps and the ball strike calling. As pitchers have gotten to throwing harder, the umps are missing more calls. It would be one thing if they were consistent, but they aren't. 

[Squirrel]

9 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

uses his rifle arm and throws out a runner at 2B

Keep in mind he had to use his rifle arm because he misplayed a catchable ball. It worked out, because he has that arm. But we need his bat. I said in another thread about that same play. I’d rather have the bat and sacrifice a bit of the defense. I’m disappointed for Wallner, though, but he’d be sitting on a bench most days. I’m hoping that someone gets traded soon.

[tony&rodney]

I'm not at all convinced that Matt Wallner will evolve at a point in time to become a regular starter much less a star, but his athleticism is enticing despite the raw inexperienced nature of his play and it seems necessary to find out. Would the Twins even allow a young player to develop into a star? Wallner reached base in eight straight plate appearances, yet more impressive was the manner in which he accomplished it. He was focused and in control of the strike zone and fouled off some good pitches. Certainly it makes sense to see how his play would proceed in several subsequent games at the very least. Does this portend that the return of Maeda results in Varland being returned to AAA? A shift, even if for a brief time, to twelve pitchers is also something to consider. I expect that to be the norm within a year or two actually. The Twins are confounding to me. 

[rv78]

9 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

But what are the roster limitations?  Nothing that playing to their capabilities wouldn't overcome.  At least 60% of this roster is playing like crap, 30-40% under ability.  Normalize that a bit and everyone here is delighted. They can comfortably put forth a starting 9 of nothing but highly touted 1st and 2nd round draft picks.  This website is filled with pages upon pages of roster crunch where every choice results in a good player being effected.

What we are seeing is a coaching and leadership problem.  Preparation and approach are abysmal.  Don't let the coaches off the hook even a little bit right now.  There isn't much more we could have asked for from the front office this offseason and certainly nothing that would address what we are seeing now.  Our bullpen woes would almost certainly be eased by a functional lineup.  We would be nervous for October but the FO will act at the trade deadline. 

The front office should be looking at this very carefully as they can't pull many levers outside of the coaching staff starting with Rocco.  I will say I'm seeing a bit more outward frustration, open coaching today with Julien was good to see.  I do believe they like to do most things behind closed doors but sometimes a public callout can be helpful. 

A mild public callout of Correa would send shockwaves through the clubhouse.  Rocco probably needs to put that demon to bed, the backup GM talk is tough for a leader to overcome.  As motioned, he is rarely pointed so he has an opportunity to use a pointed moment to great effect.  I wouldn't be surprised if they could work that out between themselves for effect.  If I were Rocco I would consider it.

If a roster lineup of 1st and 2nd round draft picks can be comfortably constructed then why doesn't it happen? Roster crunches resulting in good players being affected is partly Rocco's fault. The musical chairs lineup is of his doing. We all see it. This is titled "Time to do Something Different". Maybe one of those things is for Rocco to set a lineup that would actually be the same for more than a day or two and go with it, playing only his best players consistantly everyday for a couple of weeks and see if that doesn't jump start these guys into making better contact and getting some timely hits. Bench players are suppose to be that, not shuffled into the lineup at every opportunity taking at bats away from your best hitters.

As for the FO acting at the trade deadline.... that is not going to instill any confidence in any Twins fan right now. Both Mahle and Lopez have done nothing for this team since they have arrived and those moves looks to be a total failure for the Twins. The FO also didn't help this team by signing Free Agents (Gallo, Taylor, Castro) that couldn't hit. If anyone that is running this team has their eyes open, they should notice a very disturbing trend that even the players that use to be able to hit with some consistancy, now cannot. Changes need to be made. It is one thing to address one or two players that are not hitting by the coaches, but when it is basically the whole team then it is not a player issue but a coaching, managing issue. Since when do Managers get rewarded for getting their players to play below their ability? The wrong message is being sent from the top. That mediocrity is okay. We've seen it for three years now. Nothing will change until Ownership demands more and the fans need to stop going to games and supporting this feeble attempt at being a playoff caliber team.