Park

[PopRiveter]

Two hits in game one. According to mlb.com "both hits came on 93- mph fastballs. "

[Platoon]

It's not quite as hard to catch up to a FB you are sitting on. But in April the guys that went north didn't get there throwing FB you are sitting on! That said, the ball does jump off his bat. That part is pretty impressive!

[Tuba]

The question isn't if he makes the team, its if he wins AL MVP. I say yes. 

[KirbyDome89]

It counts, just not as much as later ST games or obviously regular season games. A huge gripe last year was that the Twins went into ST with their rotation already decided. I voiced my displeasure that Nolasco, who picked up where he left off the previous season (ie pitching poorly), was gifted the starting spot ahead of both May and Duffey. I certainly wasn't alone in that sentiment. The games need to be taken with a grain of salt but they certainly aren't meaningless as is being suggested. 

[mikelink45]

Do  not look past Vargas.  I think he has talent and we have underestimated it.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Don't remember Luke Hughes either. Too many unmemorable outfielders passing through that revolving door in the past 5 years.

 

I agree that it's too early to make this decision. Hitters will not see a lot of MLB pitching until mid March. Lots of prospects and hopefuls throwing fastballs and stretching out their arms right now.

 

Having said that, it is a lot of fun to see Park park the ball in CF bleachers. When he connects, the ball flies a log way.

id say you are telling the truth that you don't remember him as an outfielder since according to fangraphs Luke Hughes was an infielder. At least for 14.25 minutes

[David HK]

 

Way too early to make decisions. Remember Luke Hughes?

Crikey!  Oi remember ol' Luke!  He was a fair dinkum ripper from down under, mate!  

 

I'll throw another one at ye--  fer the old guys, like me--  Brant Alyea, how's that?  He had a heck of a hot streak once...

Halsey?  Anyone?

[Oxtung]

It counts, just not as much as later ST games or obviously regular season games. A huge gripe last year was that the Twins went into ST with their rotation already decided. I voiced my displeasure that Nolasco, who picked up where he left off the previous season (ie pitching poorly), was gifted the starting spot ahead of both May and Duffey. I certainly wasn't alone in that sentiment. The games need to be taken with a grain of salt but they certainly aren't meaningless as is being suggested.

 

I don't think spring training games are meaningless but the stats they provide are. If a pitcher is throwing 87 mph late in ST that is very meaningful, but if he has a 5.40 ERA that tells me nothing because the sample size is too small.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

There are a few encouraging signs, for example:  His biggest issue last season was allegedly catching up to MLB fastballs.  His HR today was off a 96 mph fastball.

 

That said:  Vargas, Park, Grossman.   Pick 2.  That's pretty much the equation and it is too early to solve.  Broken record, but Vargas leaving for 2+ weeks to play for Puerto Rico is not doing himself a favor.

I disagree on Vargas playing in the WBC. I think it is better for him. The competition is amped up and is played like the MLB post season... especially by the non U.S. teams. For some reason, the U.S. comes off as disinterested in the history of this tournament.

 

Vargas will get his fair share of at bats and they will be meaningful against competition the will be equal to ST or better. Especially in the later rounds if Puerto Rico goes that far, which I think is a decent bet.

[ashbury]

That said, the ball does jump off his bat. That part is pretty impressive!

The better the pitching, the less often you see the pitch that you like. That said, it's important to be able to really DO something with the pitch you like, because every now and then you do get one. That's where the hope for Park remains. If you can do it a high enough percentage of those few times, then there's a purpose in dealing with the 95% of pitches that don't suit you. It's how I view Dozier's rise in the second half last year - I doubt he became particularly better at depositing high inside fastballs over the left field wall, but he got incrementally better at fighting off or doing something with all the other pitches, letting him live a little longer until the inside fastball came. I don't think I'm saying anything very revolutionary, and it's what I hope Park and every Twins prospect does.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I don't think spring training games are meaningless but the stats they provide are. If a pitcher is throwing 87 mph late in ST that is very meaningful, but if he has a 5.40 ERA that tells me nothing because the sample size is too small.

The point is that you can't have it both ways. If Park or another fringe player was struggling right now that would be held against them, but if they're hitting the ball well its because they're facing inferior competition and you shouldn't read too much into it. Yes I agree that these guys aren't seeing prime MLB pitching every AB during ST, but they won't in the regular season either. Look no further than the Twins staff for evidence of that. Like I said, take it with a grain of salt. ST performance doesn't necessarily matter for established players, but it certainly does for guys like Park. Their performance shouldn't be as severely discounted as some are implying. 

[Squirrel]

The point is that you can't have it both ways. If Park or another fringe player was struggling right now that would be held against them, but if they're hitting the ball well its because they're facing inferior competition and you shouldn't read too much into it. Yes I agree that these guys aren't seeing prime MLB pitching every AB during ST, but they won't in the regular season either. Look no further than the Twins staff for evidence of that. Like I said, take it with a grain of salt. ST performance doesn't necessarily matter for established players, but it certainly does for guys like Park. Their performance shouldn't be as severely discounted as some are implying.

 

I don't hear anyone discounting his performance. Good OR bad it's February. Players are still finding their rhythm ... especially pitchers ... we are four days into playing games and there is still a ways to go. Good OR bad it's waaaaaaaaaaaay too early to be prognosticating one way or the other. I hope Park puts together a good spring and gives the team a lot to think about, but it's too early for it to mean anything at this point.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I don't hear anyone discounting his performance. Good OR bad it's February. Players are still finding their rhythm ... especially pitchers ... we are four days into playing games and there is still a ways to go. Good OR bad it's waaaaaaaaaaaay too early to be prognosticating one way or the other. I hope Park puts together a good spring and gives the team a lot to think about, but it's too early for it to mean anything at this point.

My OP was literally a response to another comment that said none of these games matter. That is discounting his performance. 

 

I'm have prognosticated anything. All I've said is that his performance thus far does have some meaning. For a guy trying to get back onto the roster and make the team out of ST these games are important. Sorry, but they matter. He's fighting for a job. Like I said before, for guys like Mauer and Dozier the games probably are meaningless, but for fringe players every AB of every game matters. 

[stringer bell]

 

Crikey!  Oi remember ol' Luke!  He was a fair dinkum ripper from down under, mate!  

 

I'll throw another one at ye--  fer the old guys, like me--  Brant Alyea, how's that?  He had a heck of a hot streak once...

Halsey?  Anyone?

Alyea started one season off very well and seemed to have most of his success when Jim Perry was pitching IIRC. I would say that year was '70 or '71. I checked (BB Ref has upgraded!). His good start/year was 1970.

[twinssporto]

I really hope Park makes the trip north after Spring Training.  Between Park and Vargas, I think Park has the potential to create more momentum for the team.  After watching both players I think Park strikes more fear into a pitcher than Vargas.  Just my humble opinion.  

[David HK]

Well, it is exceedingly early, and the sample sizes exceedingly small-  but here's a guy who's already playing like he seriously wants to go north, and that is something right there.

[HitInAPinch]

Need to update your spelling.  Byung Ho Park now wants to be called ByungHo Park. 

 

"Concerned that people were calling him “Byung” rather than “ByungHo,” he informed the Twins this spring that he prefers the space be removed from the Americanized version."

 

 

[HitInAPinch]

 

 

Well, it is exceedingly early, and the sample sizes exceedingly small-  but here's a guy who's already playing like he seriously wants to go north, and that is something right there.

It's it's waaaaaaaaaaaay to early, etc.     

 

Sure hope that isn't copy-write protected.....

[diehardtwinsfan]

Definitely encouraging, but let's see if it continues. I was hoping we'd have a Park/Vargas/Mauer 3 way platoon at 1B/DH.  Perhaps that could still happen.  Might have to DFA Santana to get it to work though... not that anyone here would be upset about it.

 

That said, with the DFA, I have to think Park is on the outside looking in, no matter well he hits this spring.  The Twins were able to clear his spot just a few months ago, I don't think they will bein a hurry to put him back in.

[big dog]

It's great that we at least have the opportunity to think he might have turned a corner.  Here's hoping he keeps it up until, say, 2023.

[Platoon]

Completely concur with the "way to early" crowd, and with Ash about adjustments like Doziers. Although there is this difference between Dozier and Park. Dozier basically hits one certain pitch to one certain place when he hits one out. Park has the power to hit any pitch out of any park in any direction. The other difference might be localized past experience, Dozier has been seeing spreads between 97 mph FB's and 82 mph breaking stuff all his career. Park has not. I have no doubt that Park can hit a mid 90's FB. In fact I doubt anyone is on a MLB roster who cannot. But the big reveal will be whether he can adjust to a much higher and much wider range of velocities. Where things went wrong for him last year was when they started to throw off speed stuff in FB counts. It produced a lot of half swings, and some that bordered on comical. While I agree that's the adjustment to make, it will surprise me if he does. And apparently it will surprise the other 29 teams in MLB.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't hear anyone discounting his performance. Good OR bad it's February. Players are still finding their rhythm ... especially pitchers ... we are four days into playing games and there is still a ways to go. Good OR bad it's waaaaaaaaaaaay too early to be prognosticating one way or the other. I hope Park puts together a good spring and gives the team a lot to think about, but it's too early for it to mean anything at this point.

On top of that, Spring Training shouldn't be a numbers game. Scouting and evaluation is what should dictate who makes the roster on Opening Day.

 

If Park left spring with zero home runs but put it on the warning track ten times against 95mph fastballs, he should get consideration for the 25 man roster. If he hit 15 home runs on 88mph fastballs but missed every 95mph fastball thrown his direction, he should pack his bags and head to Rochester.

 

Obviously, those are unrealistic scenarios but they illustrate how little Spring Training numbers should matter. What the guy is doing during 80-ish plate appearances, half of which came against minor leaguers and pitchers lobbing softballs in February, shouldn't matter much to the front office and coaching staff. And it probably doesn't, as all of those people are professionals and smart enough to realize what matters and what doesn't.

[Shaitan]

I wonder if Feb ST games are basically the equivalent of KBO pitching quality. 

[GP830]

 

On top of that, Spring Training shouldn't be a numbers game. Scouting and evaluation is what should dictate who makes the roster on Opening Day.

 

If Park left spring with zero home runs but put it on the warning track ten times against 95mph fastballs, he should get consideration for the 25 man roster. If he hit 15 home runs on 88mph fastballs but missed every 95mph fastball thrown his direction, he should pack his bags and head to Rochester.

 

Obviously, those are unrealistic scenarios but they illustrate how little Spring Training numbers should matter. What the guy is doing during 80-ish plate appearances, half of which came against minor leaguers and pitchers lobbing softballs in February, shouldn't matter much to the front office and coaching staff. And it probably doesn't, as all of those people are professionals and smart enough to realize what matters and what doesn't.

Thanks for the insight, Brock. How then does an organization evaluate player or performance during spring training?Also, am I incorrect to assume that spring training is ever used for player evaluation or is it solely just easy reps to get back up to speed?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Thanks for the insight, Brock. How then does an organization evaluate player or performance during spring training?Also, am I incorrect to assume that spring training is ever used for player evaluation or is it solely just easy reps to get back up to speed?

I have no idea how this front office evaluates Spring Training. Unfortunately, the old front office seemed to put some weight on in-game performance, as evidenced by the untimely promotion of Aaron Hicks in 2013.

 

But Spring Training is different for every player. I doubt Brian Dozier cares at all about his ST numbers but I bet Byung Ho Park cares deeply about his numbers. And it's up to the front office and coaching staff to sort through each player and judge them accordingly.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Thanks for the insight, Brock. How then does an organization evaluate player or performance during spring training?Also, am I incorrect to assume that spring training is ever used for player evaluation or is it solely just easy reps to get back up to speed?

 

Of course they use ST to evaluate players. They just don't rely as much on stats and outcomes, as they do process and approach, imo. I have no idea, but that's what you read on line.

[LimestoneBaggy]

 

Thanks for the insight, Brock. How then does an organization evaluate player or performance during spring training?Also, am I incorrect to assume that spring training is ever used for player evaluation or is it solely just easy reps to get back up to speed?

 

Variable-Observed Statistical Adjustment (I completely made this up based on Brock's assessment). In other words, look at the context of the situations which built the stats. Was this against a low quality pitcher or low quality defense; at what point in spring training was this going on (early in year when guys are working on fb location); was the wind blowing out so hard someone hit three home runs in a small park (Hicks/2013); etc.

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

I wonder if Feb ST games are basically the equivalent of KBO pitching quality. 

Japan and Korea have many pitchers with top shelf breaking balls. What they don't have is many guys who throw mid-to-high 90's FB with movement.

 

In the USA we call those guys Yu Darvish and we pay them lots of money and then giggle because we got such a bargain.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Variable-Observed Statistical Adjustment (I completely made this up based on Brock's assessment). In other words, look at the context of the situations which built the stats. Was this against a low quality pitcher or low quality defense; at what point in spring training was this going on (early in year when guys are working on fb location); was the wind blowing out so hard someone hit three home runs in a small park (Hicks/2013); etc.

On top of that, there's a huge portion of Spring Training that happens (largely) outside what we see as fans. There are practices, backfield sessions, preparation, and even locker room atmosphere to consider. I don't know how much those do (or should) weigh into the player evaluations, but they all count for something.

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

Crikey!  Oi remember ol' Luke!  He was a fair dinkum ripper from down under, mate!  

 

I'll throw another one at ye--  fer the old guys, like me--  Brant Alyea, how's that?  He had a heck of a hot streak once...

Halsey?  Anyone?

I don't remember Alyea, but I remember Glenn Williams.

 

That Australian played 3B for us and hit .425/.452/.450 (.902) for us in 2005 in 43 PA.

 

Not a very long career, but damn fine stats to retire with!