Minnesota Twins Demote Floundering José Miranda, Activate Brooks Lee

[Doctor Wu]

8 hours ago, Western SD Fan said:

You could have thrown a dart at any position player with options left and demoted them to St. Paul with maybe the exception of Wallner or Keirsey.  Miranda just happened to be the most blatant and obvious of all of them. 

That pretty much says it. With half the team batting below the Mendoza line, Miranda may be only the first of several possible demotions or releases. 

[Karbo]

9 hours ago, Western SD Fan said:

You could have thrown a dart at any position player with options left and demoted them to St. Paul with maybe the exception of Wallner or Keirsey.  Miranda just happened to be the most blatant and obvious of all of them.  I agree that Gasper should have been DFA'd instead of sending Miranda down, but it's not a big loss either way at this point.  All of this is still flushing the system of players where they spent all their development years on trying to get everyone to hit HR's instead of just trying to put the ball in play and work on fundamentals (See Austin Martin).  As for firing Rocco, I don't expect it to happen as that would just create more turmoil when the Pohlads are trying to sell the team, and you would have a new interim manager basically with no hope of staying with the team after the season.  My 30 seconds of research also suggests that the Twins have never fired a manager midseason.  Only Gene Mauch resigned during the 1980 season, and I don't consider that a firing.  We can dream, but it's only a dream.

I thought Mele got fired during the season.

[Karbo]

8 hours ago, RpR said:

IF they lose badly, or look stupid in field or base paths -- some thing will probably happen , but predicting what is not in our realm  of knowledge shown by dozens of : I get the feeling that this ... happen has been quite wrong.

IMO Rocco will probably survive another week or 2. But if things don't change by the end of the month I don't see any choice for the FO other than a new manager.

[Doctor Wu]

2 minutes ago, Karbo said:

IMO Rocco will probably survive another week or 2. But if things don't change by the end of the month I don't see any choice for the FO other than a new manager.

I would think his leash is very short at this point. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

2 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I agree with the biggest issue , fans want a new voice leading this team , coaching the players to their strengths and not their weaknesses , we need a leader to lead , not keep looking at the spread sheets ...

We may not turn this season around  with a new leader with a voice but it's worth a try to salvage something ... 

this is an interesting train of thought. It appears to me that this collection of misfits (outside of Bader, Buxton and Correa) have always been home run hitting, no running, can’t field, one trick ponies.

it looks to me like Rocco does manage to their strengths, but so many of the anti-Rocco voices don’t like the way the players have always played.

[Peter]

Good riddance!!! Needed to be done-Miranda  is done as a twin!!!! 

[JD-TWINS]

Miranda move can’t be bad - it may turn out to be neutral offensively? Hope not!

Wallner batting lead-off - 2 RBI this year - nobody is ever on base when he’s in the box. I back Baldelli and put the responsibility on the players at every turn - this strategy is nuts!!

Total HR for Larnach - Jeffers - Correa - Julien to date, ZERO. To me, that’s not Rocco. Last April Julien had 7 HR himself.

OPS: Castro .671 - Buxton .564 - Larnach .522 - Correa .488. Again, to me, that’s not Rocco.

#1 Picks (two of them #1 overall) Buxton - Lewis - Correa - Martin - Lee ………..getting unbelievably low contributions from this group!!

[William K Johnson]

Lee can play third, moving Castro to second.    However, that is the least of our problems.   Starting pitching has been great, bullpen up and down, but the offense is as bad as I can recall.    Castro and France are the only two hitters doing anything.    Buxton, Correa, Larnac and Wallner appear overmatched at the plate right now.   I cringe when I see a lineup with both Gasper and Valazquez in it.   Two outs for sure each time through the lineup.   There is an old saying in baseball, you don't win pennants in April but you can sure lose them.   By the time this team gets righted, the train might have left the station.

[Whitey333]

Interesting article Nick.  You sure bash Miranda.  And understandably and perhaps rightfully so.  But Miranda situation is typical of so many of these young twins on the roster.  They are fundamentally unsoun̈d and just not ready fir prime time.  I don't think many of them will ever be.  Exchanging Miranda for Lee is ok but it certainly doesn't move the needle.  What has Lee done at the major league level?  Nut much.

[MGM4706]

Team has several AAA Players on its roster.

But just doing the basics has been lost since Rocco arrived. Outfielders don't play the wall well, they miss the cutoff man or throw to the wrong bases. Base running is atrocious. And none of it ever improves under Rocco! He just shrugs and stares off into the distance when in the dugout. Never gets mad at anyone. If he's mad at Miranda it will be a first!

And how is Gasper on a Major League Roster?

 

 

 

[Doctor Wu]

36 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Wallner batting lead-off - 2 RBI this year - nobody is ever on base when he’s in the box

Hey, at least our LOB stats are low this season!

[mikelink45]

9 hours ago, FlyingFinn said:

For a team that can't hit right now, you want to get rid of our hottest hitter in Julien???

No - you misread me.  I would love to see Julien regain his status of two years ago.  But if I am looking at the players who would follow Miranda to the minors I see him as one of them - his defense is not keeping him here and he has had a very long down period.  Can he sustain what he is doing now?  I suspect (hope) that Gaspar is next to go down or DFA, but if I am looking at past and present prospects Julien is in danger of losing his roster spot in the future. 

[TopGunn#22]

There is a high degree of frustration for Twins fans right now.  This team should at least be at .500 and in the mix for what should be a very competitive A.L. Central.  Yet the AB's this team takes are just as frustrating as ever.  Going with a new hitting coach has brought no improvement at all.  

The move with Miranda had to made.  Much of our frustration with the Twins stems from the lack of production of our "Star Players."  Correa and Buxton are struggling at a time when the team really needs them to step up.  Striking out on 3 consecutive change-ups yesterday with men on base was vintage Buxton.  

But while the "star core" of our lineup is either flirting with the Mendoza Line (Correa, Buxton) or M.I.A. with yet ANOTHER injury (Lewis) the greater frustration of Twins fans is the lack of growth by our younger players.  The Tigers have young players showing growth in SPADES...Torkelson, Carpenter and Greene.  On the pitching side they've developed a CY Young winner in Skubel.  Casey Mize, Reese Olson and Jackson Jobe are coming into their own. Colt Keith shows promise.  

On the Twins side, we see young players that show flashes, but no one who appears to be turning the corner.  We also see screwball lineup construction from Rocco due to who knows what from a spreadsheet.  We have a classic cleanup or #5 hitter in Matt Wallner, yet we embark on this grand experiment of hitting him leadoff.  It's idiotic moves like this that have become the trademark of Rocco Baldelli.  

It's a long season, but the Twins have earned their 4-11 record to date.  We currently sit in LAST PLACE, half a game behind the worst team in baseball history.  Rocco and the hitting coach should be feeling the heat in a major way.  

Bean is right that Miranda still has some value on the trade market.  Guys don't go from having value to zero value 15 games into the season.  Otherwise, the Twins could traded SWR to the Red Sox for Rafael Devers and moved Festa into the rotation.  

Another failing of Rocco is not fighting for guys who are clearly better options than what he's got right now.  Festa should be in this rotation,  So should Zebby Matthews.  With Pablo's injury, Andrew Morris should be making a spot start or two.  Instead, we got a guy like Paddack who should be a 2-inning BP guy at best. 

We had a Golden opportunity to trade a guy like SWR at the top of his value and get a bat who could help this lineup and go with Festa, Matthews or Morris, all guys with much higher ceilings, yet we did nothing.  Signing a Jose Quintana type or even Martin Perez (who beguiled the Twins earlier this year) would have made for a better rotation.

And as I mentioned earlier, any hope we have that some of our young talent like E-Rod, Keaschall or Brooks Lee could come up and give us some juice seems hollow because our young players just don't show any improvement once they reach the Twins.  It's a frustrating situation with Rocco and his staff but it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Toby Gardenhire either.  

And at the center of all this is a looming, potential ownership change that most of us hope ushers in BIG CHANGES throughout the Twins organization.  The longer this listless, lifeless iteration of the Twins keeps stacking up loss after loss, the less the Pohlad family can expect from a sale.  The Twins ship is taking on water on rough seas.  Will the Pohlad family go down with the ship?  

[LambchoP]

Finally a move I agree with. Miranda had to be sent down. Both due to his ineptitude at the plate and Saturdays mistake. Finally some accountability. Lee probably won't help much at the plate, at least for awhile, but he should help our pathetic defense improve at the least. Hopefully Lewis and Martin get healthy. Keaschal playing more second base and continuing to hit would be huge too. Lewis can replace Gasper. Keaschal could be a big boost to the lineup. If Mccusker keeps hitting like he has been, maybe he gets a shot. I said this in another thread, we're not making the playoffs so might as well reward some of these guys doing well in AAA with a cup of coffee and see if anyone sticks. This would be the most excitement we can hope for this year I think :(

[FargoFanMan]

11 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Derek Falvey went to Trinity college, which isn’t part of the Ivy League.

Buuuuut, you know what I mean.

[FargoFanMan]

11 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Miranda has two full seasons at wRC+ 115 and he's at league minimum. BaseballTradeValues has Jose Miranda at +12 right now. In the ballpark of a guy like Zebby Matthews. Miranda would bring back a couple org top 10-15s right now.

Not when he hasn’t hit in the last 50 games going back to last year and hasn’t been consistent since last June/July. Also, not in mid April.

[Linus]

Miranda wasnt hitting at all so the demotion is fine with me. What I find interesting is that his bone head play is now the reason for some “accountability “.  It was a bad play but a totally screwy play that Ive not seen before yet it’s the straw that breaks the camels back. Not the mistakes made every game on routine plays that we see over and over. This team makes so many fundamental mistakes nearly every game but this is the one that can’t be tolerated. I don’t get it. Maybe it’s a new era of accountability. 

[mluebker]

12 hours ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

…this team is just not prepared mentally or any other way to play on a daily basis.

Couldn’t agree more. They’ve got a bunch of at-best average ball players being expected to carry the team while getting no visible leadership or inspiration from management. Meanwhile, the handful of big-dollar stars are either on the IL or struggling even more. This formula doesn’t seem to be working

[mluebker]

10 hours ago, RpR said:

IF they lose badly, or look stupid in field or base paths -- some thing will probably happen , but predicting what is not in our realm  of knowledge…

They certainly keep surprising us, but rarely in a good way.

[$tryf4Life]

Makes senses.

This team is terrible. 

Keep the moves coming. M

[shimrod]

44 minutes ago, Linus said:

 It was a bad play but a totally screwy play that Ive not seen before yet it’s the straw that breaks the camels back.

You haven't seen it before because it's indicative of a player who's completely lost focus on the game. 

We've all seen fielders miss the bag. We've seen umpires miss calls. We are not accustomed to seeing offensive players so checked out they fail to take advantage of the fielder's mistake. 

Miranda is not the only player who's lost focus and, unless things turn around, he won't be the last shipped out one way or another. Just like hitting, chronic inattention is contagious. This should have been nipped in the bud many months ago, as in last season, and we have to hope it isn't too late. 

[T.O.]

13 hours ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

If they lose tomorrow I honestly think Rocco is done. I just have that feeling.

I wish that were true but I'm not holding my breath.

[Linus]

11 minutes ago, shimrod said:

You haven't seen it before because it's indicative of a player who's completely lost focus on the game. 

We've all seen fielders miss the bag. We've seen umpires miss calls. We are not accustomed to seeing offensive players so checked out they fail to take advantage of the fielder's mistake. 

Miranda is not the only player who's lost focus and, unless things turn around, he won't be the last shipped out one way or another. Just like hitting, chronic inattention is contagious. This should have been nipped in the bud many months ago, as in last season, and we have to hope it isn't too late. 

Yea so you missed my point. Truckloads of mistakes have been made on routine plays that happen nearly every game with no apparent consequences. I’m much more concerned about accountability on those plays than on a screwy play we won’t see again for the rest of the year.  Make no mistake I’m fine with him getting demoted mainly because he isn’t hitting. 

[T.O.]

Miranda became one of my favorites in 22. He had a very good rookie year. In particular I remember that the Twins prima donnas stars, Correa and Buxton, went into a slump after the All Star game and most of the team followed. Miranda was the one that kept getting clutch hits at least until September.
After that he's thrived some but struggled mostly.
I hate to see him go but can't argue with the move.

I wouldn't count him out completely. Who knows.

[LA Vikes Fan]

While this demotion can help, I think the team needs something more drastic to get out of this funk. Firing the manager would shake things up but I'm not sure who replaces Rocco. Tingler stunk in San Diego and who knows if Toby Gardenhire is MLB quality. Bringing up Keaschall to replace Gaspar might help fi we actually play Keaschall regularly, probably at the expense of Castro. A new lineup that puts Wallner in an RBI position might help, but only if someone actually gets on base ahead of him. I guess we should try all of the above since the one thing we know is that what we're doing now isn't working. 

[bean5302]

12 hours ago, USAFChief said:

You couldn't give away Miranda if you ADDED a couple top 10-15s.

Fortunately, your personal rage doesn't factor into teams' assessment of players. I'd imagine that'd make for an awfully unstable player valuation market, haha.

[rdehring]

2 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

There is a high degree of frustration for Twins fans right now.  This team should at least be at .500 and in the mix for what should be a very competitive A.L. Central.  Yet the AB's this team takes are just as frustrating as ever.  Going with a new hitting coach has brought no improvement at all.  

The move with Miranda had to made.  Much of our frustration with the Twins stems from the lack of production of our "Star Players."  Correa and Buxton are struggling at a time when the team really needs them to step up.  Striking out on 3 consecutive change-ups yesterday with men on base was vintage Buxton.  

But while the "star core" of our lineup is either flirting with the Mendoza Line (Correa, Buxton) or M.I.A. with yet ANOTHER injury (Lewis) the greater frustration of Twins fans is the lack of growth by our younger players.  The Tigers have young players showing growth in SPADES...Torkelson, Carpenter and Greene.  On the pitching side they've developed a CY Young winner in Skubel.  Casey Mize, Reese Olson and Jackson Jobe are coming into their own. Colt Keith shows promise.  

On the Twins side, we see young players that show flashes, but no one who appears to be turning the corner.  We also see screwball lineup construction from Rocco due to who knows what from a spreadsheet.  We have a classic cleanup or #5 hitter in Matt Wallner, yet we embark on this grand experiment of hitting him leadoff.  It's idiotic moves like this that have become the trademark of Rocco Baldelli.  

It's a long season, but the Twins have earned their 4-11 record to date.  We currently sit in LAST PLACE, half a game behind the worst team in baseball history.  Rocco and the hitting coach should be feeling the heat in a major way.  

Bean is right that Miranda still has some value on the trade market.  Guys don't go from having value to zero value 15 games into the season.  Otherwise, the Twins could traded SWR to the Red Sox for Rafael Devers and moved Festa into the rotation.  

Another failing of Rocco is not fighting for guys who are clearly better options than what he's got right now.  Festa should be in this rotation,  So should Zebby Matthews.  With Pablo's injury, Andrew Morris should be making a spot start or two.  Instead, we got a guy like Paddack who should be a 2-inning BP guy at best. 

We had a Golden opportunity to trade a guy like SWR at the top of his value and get a bat who could help this lineup and go with Festa, Matthews or Morris, all guys with much higher ceilings, yet we did nothing.  Signing a Jose Quintana type or even Martin Perez (who beguiled the Twins earlier this year) would have made for a better rotation.

And as I mentioned earlier, any hope we have that some of our young talent like E-Rod, Keaschall or Brooks Lee could come up and give us some juice seems hollow because our young players just don't show any improvement once they reach the Twins.  It's a frustrating situation with Rocco and his staff but it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Toby Gardenhire either.  

And at the center of all this is a looming, potential ownership change that most of us hope ushers in BIG CHANGES throughout the Twins organization.  The longer this listless, lifeless iteration of the Twins keeps stacking up loss after loss, the less the Pohlad family can expect from a sale.  The Twins ship is taking on water on rough seas.  Will the Pohlad family go down with the ship?  

Was planning a similar comment, TopGunn.  Thanks, loved it.

I count eight 'future stars' joining the Twins over the last several years, Jeffers, Kirilloff, Julien, Lee, Lewis, Miranda, Larnach and Wallner.  All of them showed a ton of promise while in the minors.  Most gave us glimpses of future stardom after their arrival.  

But none have improved after their first exposure as rookies with the Twins.  Several have gotten worse.  You couldn't have expected all of them to develop into big-league players that solidify a competitive roster, but certainly some of them should.  Add the fact that five of the eight have dealt with injuries and you have what we are watching today.

Will the next group of future stars, EmRod, Keaschall, Winokur and Jenkins, be different?  

[bean5302]

1 hour ago, FargoFanMan said:

Not when he hasn’t hit in the last 50 games going back to last year and hasn’t been consistent since last June/July. Also, not in mid April.

That's why Miranda's value is +12 and not +100. Had Miranda continued his .325/.366/.522 OPS .888 wRC+ 151 pace he had at the All Star Break for the full season, he'd be one of the most coveted players in all of baseball right now.

What is known is Miranda played with a hurt back, and he's got 800 PA in two full seasons where he was well above average.

[rdehring]

1 hour ago, FargoFanMan said:

Not when he hasn’t hit in the last 50 games going back to last year and hasn’t been consistent since last June/July. Also, not in mid April.

I expect Miranda's stay with the Twins is over.  What the Twins need from Miranda is a couple months at St. Paul where he begins hitting like he did in the minors before.  Then they need to move him and get something in return, probably around the all-star break.

[Blyleven2011]

3 hours ago, Doctor Wu said:

Hey, at least our LOB stats are low this season!

LOB is low because they can't hit to get on base enough and because they have mental errors on the bases for outs ...