Minnesota Twins Demote Floundering José Miranda, Activate Brooks Lee

[tarheeltwinsfan]

2 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

There is a high degree of frustration for Twins fans right now.  This team should at least be at .500 and in the mix for what should be a very competitive A.L. Central.  Yet the AB's this team takes are just as frustrating as ever.  Going with a new hitting coach has brought no improvement at all.  

The move with Miranda had to made.  Much of our frustration with the Twins stems from the lack of production of our "Star Players."  Correa and Buxton are struggling at a time when the team really needs them to step up.  Striking out on 3 consecutive change-ups yesterday with men on base was vintage Buxton.  

But while the "star core" of our lineup is either flirting with the Mendoza Line (Correa, Buxton) or M.I.A. with yet ANOTHER injury (Lewis) the greater frustration of Twins fans is the lack of growth by our younger players.  The Tigers have young players showing growth in SPADES...Torkelson, Carpenter and Greene.  On the pitching side they've developed a CY Young winner in Skubel.  Casey Mize, Reese Olson and Jackson Jobe are coming into their own. Colt Keith shows promise.  

On the Twins side, we see young players that show flashes, but no one who appears to be turning the corner.  We also see screwball lineup construction from Rocco due to who knows what from a spreadsheet.  We have a classic cleanup or #5 hitter in Matt Wallner, yet we embark on this grand experiment of hitting him leadoff.  It's idiotic moves like this that have become the trademark of Rocco Baldelli.  

It's a long season, but the Twins have earned their 4-11 record to date.  We currently sit in LAST PLACE, half a game behind the worst team in baseball history.  Rocco and the hitting coach should be feeling the heat in a major way.  

Bean is right that Miranda still has some value on the trade market.  Guys don't go from having value to zero value 15 games into the season.  Otherwise, the Twins could traded SWR to the Red Sox for Rafael Devers and moved Festa into the rotation.  

Another failing of Rocco is not fighting for guys who are clearly better options than what he's got right now.  Festa should be in this rotation,  So should Zebby Matthews.  With Pablo's injury, Andrew Morris should be making a spot start or two.  Instead, we got a guy like Paddack who should be a 2-inning BP guy at best. 

We had a Golden opportunity to trade a guy like SWR at the top of his value and get a bat who could help this lineup and go with Festa, Matthews or Morris, all guys with much higher ceilings, yet we did nothing.  Signing a Jose Quintana type or even Martin Perez (who beguiled the Twins earlier this year) would have made for a better rotation.

And as I mentioned earlier, any hope we have that some of our young talent like E-Rod, Keaschall or Brooks Lee could come up and give us some juice seems hollow because our young players just don't show any improvement once they reach the Twins.  It's a frustrating situation with Rocco and his staff but it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Toby Gardenhire either.  

And at the center of all this is a looming, potential ownership change that most of us hope ushers in BIG CHANGES throughout the Twins organization.  The longer this listless, lifeless iteration of the Twins keeps stacking up loss after loss, the less the Pohlad family can expect from a sale.  The Twins ship is taking on water on rough seas.  Will the Pohlad family go down with the ship?  

Unfortunately, your assessment is spot on Top. 

[NYCTK]

13 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Miranda has two full seasons at wRC+ 115 and he's at league minimum. BaseballTradeValues has Jose Miranda at +12 right now. In the ballpark of a guy like Zebby Matthews. Miranda would bring back a couple org top 10-15s right now.

No one's paying any sort of premium for a bat only player with a 101 career OPS+. He reminds me of Delmon Young, and he went on to accumulate 0 WAR after the age 25. 

[TheLeviathan]

13 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Miranda has two full seasons at wRC+ 115 and he's at league minimum. BaseballTradeValues has Jose Miranda at +12 right now. In the ballpark of a guy like Zebby Matthews. Miranda would bring back a couple org top 10-15s right now.

What a stunning indictment of how unseriously we should take BaseballTradeValues.

[NYCTK]

1 hour ago, rdehring said:

 

I count eight 'future stars' joining the Twins over the last several years, Jeffers, Kirilloff, Julien, Lee, Lewis, Miranda, Larnach and Wallner.  All of them showed a ton of promise while in the minors.  Most gave us glimpses of future stardom after their arrival.  

 

Fans get too invested in what the Twins Organization and other Twins fans say about their own prospects. Of that list, only Royce and Kiriloff were concensus top level prospects. Lee is kinda that next tier that we should still expect him to be a valuable player but not really an all star. 

[stringer bell]

1 minute ago, NYCTK said:

Fans get too invested in what the Twins Organization and other Twins fans say about their own prospects. Of that list, only Royce and Kiriloff were concensus top level prospects. Lee is kinda that next tier that we should still expect him to be a valuable player but not really an all star. 

Concur. Miranda was a middling prospect who absolutely destroyed the minors as he broke out, but he was never considered that highly nationally. There aren't many sure things in baseball and many of the sure things don't pan out, usually due to injury. 

I think Miranda might get another chance after a reset in St. Paul, but the sands in the hourglass are dwindling for sure. 

Personally, Miranda is exactly what the Twins have too much of, that is a guy whose value is tied to one skill--the ability to hit--and when that breaks down he doesn't have the tools to be a team asset. Larnach, Wallner and Julien to varying degrees have the same profile. 

[Doctor Gast]

Miranda is floundering (and others) because Baldelli doesn't know how to play to their strengths. Miranda shouldn't be playing 3B. Our INF stinks. Even Correa isn't on top of his game, or maybe he just has too much ground to cover. Normally, Correa is very vocal, but for a while now, he has been very quiet. Falvey & Co. has drained all the fire and chemistry from the team. Gasper & Julien shouldn't have broke camp with the team.

They should have Miranda playing 1B & Martin 2B at AAA. & have them sent up as soon as possible. If Keirsey had as many ABs as Julien he'd be able to start hitting better than Julien.

[Doctor Gast]

40 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

What a stunning indictment of how unseriously we should take BaseballTradeValues.

BTV has its formulas, like all stats. We can't take a lot of stats that serious because of the bias that's baked into them. But BTV gives us basically an unbiased ballpark idea. That said there are a lot of variables (where I differ in value & our need) in trading, where out of every 10 offers, I turn down 9.

[joefish]

Fire Gardenhire. 

[Guest]

The Twins are playing like they're still in Spring Training.

Don't we have an entirely new set of hitting coaches this year?  Haven't noticed....

[mluebker]

51 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

Ray Miller was fired on September 12th, 1986 and Tom Kelly was hired as interim manager and he ended up being our best manager ever.

Anyone have Doug Mientkiewicz’s number?

[Blyleven2011]

7 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

this is an interesting train of thought. It appears to me that this collection of misfits (outside of Bader, Buxton and Correa) have always been home run hitting, no running, can’t field, one trick ponies.

it looks to me like Rocco does manage to their strengths, but so many of the anti-Rocco voices don’t like the way the players have always played.

Sorry I cannot agree with Rocco and coaches  managing to a players strength  ...

I could give you many reasons and I'm not sure you wouldn't agree with them ..   

Margot pinch hitting is 1 ...

[Richie the Rally Goat]

1 hour ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Sorry I cannot agree with Rocco and coaches  managing to a players strength  ...

I could give you many reasons and I'm not sure you wouldn't agree with them ..   

Margot pinch hitting is 1 ...

I can’t argue with Margot pinch hitting

[nddan67]

There is never a good or bad time to fire a manager.  But I agree with earlier posts Rocco needs to go.

The Twins have played listless baseball since the second half of last season.  And at other times, too.

They need a change badly.  Attendance is down most days it seems players are going through the motions.  They need a new manager who knows the game on the field and when and when not to make a move.  Pohlad's want to sell the team.  It's going to be hard with the way they are playing and low attendance,  Make a move at manager.   More than Miranda deserve to be sent out.

[mluebker]

10 hours ago, Karbo said:

I thought Mele got fired during the season.

He did, in 1967. So did Lavagetto in 1961, making way for Mele. In 1972, Bill Rigney got fired mid-season and was replaced by Frank Quilici. Gene Mauch “resigned” in a difference of opinion with Cal Griffith and company during the 1980 and John Goryl took over. He was replaced by Billy Gardner early in the 1981 season. Gardner was replaced by Ray Miller mid-season 1985, and Miller was replaced by Tom Kelly in September 1986. You all probably know the rest.