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Posted

The simplest standard we can apply to umpires is: let the players determine the outcome of every game. This spring, MLB umpires aren't meeting that expectation.

Image courtesy of © Orlando Ramirez-USA TODAY Sports

No Time for Games
Umpires take a lot of flak. It’s understandable. As a baseball fan, it’s almost a rite of passage as a baseball fan to heckle an umpire. This season, it seems almost duly warranted. The umpires have, seemingly, no patience for anyone. Yankees manager Aaron Boone is making a habit of getting the heave-ho, and usually, it’s warranted. Let’s be honest: Boone is a whiner. He has been ejected 35 times since 2018 - the most of any MLB manager. But in the game against the Oakland Athletics on Apr 22, 2024, a fan in the stands was heckling the umpires, and home plate umpire Hunter Wendelstedt gave no quarter. He immediately blamed Boone, and tossed him. It was the oddest of the ejections thus far this season, but certainly not the only one that raised eyebrows.

In the Twins' game against the White Sox on May 1, Byron Buxton attempted to steal second, but during the run, he slowed to a jog with a wince of pain. He passed second base, and as the trainer came out to get him, Buxton felt obvious pain and gingerly walked off the field. As he and trainer Nick Paparesta walked off the field, first-base umpire Rob Drake hollered at Buxton, “Let’s go, hurry up,” and “Get off the field.”

Like the Wendelstedt incident, it was an unforced error--an example of poor judgment from men whose entire job is judgment. The umpiring staff has been struggling to keep their composure. 

On May 4, in the game between the Blue Jays and Washington Nationals, Bo Bichette was frustrated at the plate in the bottom of the fourth, after striking out. Fed up with his own struggles and the team's, Bichette threw his helmet in frustration, and umpire Jonathan Parra immediately ejected him. 

There seems to be an influx of umpires who are either getting defensive and taking it out on players and coaches or who have legitimate concerns about the structure of the game. The game is already shorter, the bases bigger, and the rules keep changing. Umps face the real and justifiable fear of automated strike-calling, so maybe they are feeling the heat, but their handling of it has been bizarre.

The Shrinking Strike Zone
One of the fans' favorite things to do in the morning after a game is race to their favorite Twitter handle, Umpire Scorecard, to lament the umpire's job from the night before. The most egregious umpire for detrimental calls is Angel Hernandez, but these days, he's far from alone in having some ugly reports coming in.

On May 4, Yankees captain Aaron Judge was at the plate with a 3-2 count, and a pitch came in off the plate outside. Judge assumed that to be a ball, and as he started to take a walk to first, the umpire called strike three. Judge did not like that call, and informed the ump of that. In fact, he made clear what he thought of the entirety of the umpire's game, which earned him and Boone (you guessed it) an ejection. The highlight was people pointing out that former captain Derek Jeter never was ejected in his career, and this ejection was a “quick” response from the umpire. Whether it was or wasn’t, the Umpire didn’t have it, and Judge was ejected. 

Looking at the ejection, let’s look at the umpire in question. Umpire Ryan Blakney has been around for a few seasons. He’s no Joe West, but he has some tenure and is well-known. This game was low-scoring, highly competitive, and frustrating for both sides, and Blakney was adding fuel to the fire. While his scorecard favored the Yankees lineup, it is evident that he had a rough day behind the plate. Of all the strikes that were called in that game, nine were recorded as strikes and did not even come close to the strike zone. 

image.jpeg.707f4f560024f4b0f9c534b479a54229.jpeg

It’s no wonder the teams were frustrated, and that tensions were high. 

No Solution in Sight... or is there?
After reviewing the cards and the grading (which is not official, but it is interesting to look at), the umpires are simply losing control—either of the strike zone or themselves. A tour through the scorecards is a trip. There hasn’t been a change to home plate or the strike zone, but the umpires have undergone a change in attitude and comportment. 

Now, it cannot be easy to be an umpire, and the Minnesota Twins have had some really good umpires this season. With the exception of a few bad calls, there are much more egregious games out there. There are many ways to track and watch umpires throughout the season; this has been an eye-opening experience. One interesting thing is that the umpires are paid, controlled, and punished by their union, and getting fired for “poor performance” is nearly impossible. There were instances in 2012 and 2007 where repeated offenses of the commissioner's office got two separate umpires suspended for a game, but nothing since then. Poor performance is left up to the union's discretion, and is hard to prove. Yes, even in the case of Hernandez, his lawsuits keep him in the game, which is equally frustrating. 

There is no set time for robo-umpires, and they may never happen, but it’s clear that the current umpire staff is over-compensating through fear or frustration, making the games frustrating to watch for the fans and frustrating to compete in for the players. While human error is a part of the game, it should include controls and checks and balances for the good of the game. What would that even look like?


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Posted

Players need to understand that umpires have an impossible task. Calls will be missed. I'm sure that players understand that umps have an impossible job... if they don't understand how difficult it is for umpires to get every call correct, they haven't talked with a catcher about pitch framing or put two and two together after talking with a catcher about pitch framing. Your catcher is trying to steal a call or two or 50 so being upset when the other teams catcher steals a call is probably out of bounds.   

Umpires need to understand that each AB is important for not only wins and losses but also future contracts or even keeping a major league job and I'm hopeful that umpires understand that fans paid money to watch Aaron Judge play.   

Umps tossing players should be so rare that we are shocked when it happens. Frustration is going to be part of the game. 

On the other hand... Umps tossing Managers... no problem... toss away.  😄

Posted

So much history in the relationships between players/coaches and umpires.  Things are changing so fast right now, umpires, especially the older ones, are having a hard time adjusting.

If you have never seen rugby officials interact with the players, watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43AdWFSXhgs

Rugby is extremely violent and aggressive, yet watch how both sides interact with each other.  You will never look at baseball officiating the same.

Verified Member
Posted

Blink at the wrong time and you can miss a call.  Depending on the angle the umpire has some pitches can look like they clipped the corner when it was outside.  The ball is moving 90MPH or more and moving side to side or up and down.  I am surprised they are as accurate as they are. 

Still a critical bad call in an important part of the game can change the entire game.  So it is hard not to be upset that an umpire took the bat of someone's hands or kept the bat in their hands when they should have been out. .I would never want to be an umpire calling balls and strikes.  

I am not sure an automatic zone is gonna be nirvana, but it should be more consistent and I think I can live with that. 

Posted

Humans are going to miss calls, we can debate using robo-umps for that. BUT, yelling at an injured player to get off the field, tossing a manager (even Boone) for something a fan yelled, then refusing to acknowledge that you made a mistake are not acceptable. I think my issue is that there appears to be no consequences for this type of behavior. Umpires are never seemingly punished for their behavior (not blown calls, those are errors and happen), that seems to be the bigger issue. 

Posted

Quite honestly, the umpiring these days is so much better than it was 20 years ago, which was so much better than it was 20 years before that. Check out the strike zone in Game 5 of the 1997 World Series and imagine if that happened today. 

The worst umpires we see in the game are the leftovers from generations ago. Wendelstedt is a nepo baby that entered the league in '98. CB Bucknor debuted in '96. Angel Hernandez '91. Conversely, the newer umps we see have been trained with the same pitch data as the hitters and pitchers in the league and have been able to improve as they made their way into the Bigs. 

That Yankees strike zone? That's pretty consistent if not large, and Aaron Judge was rightfully tossed. Every big leaguer knows you can respectfully disagree with a call but if you call the ump ******** you're gone. Bichette, a bit of a gray area. Equipment violations are subject to being tossed. 

That being said, a Ball/Strikes challenge system IS coming as we see it being tested in the minors. It's not going to be robo-umps and frankly, I don't want that. 

Posted

There is definitely a human element to calling the game. What gets me frustrated is when a pitch in obviously in or out of strike zone and called the wrong way. Borderline pitches are just that, sometime may be called a ball and sometimes a strike depending on umps angle, movement of pitch, or how catcher catches pitch. But when a pitch appears to be 2 inches inside the zone and called a ball, or the opposite, hard to defend ump, especially when it appears consistently to be in one teams favor. 

Posted

Accuracy vs. consistency. It's been part of the game for the pitcher and hitter to be able to identify the strike zone, and as I pointed out just a minute ago in a Vazquez article, catcher physical dimensions seems to have a pretty major impact on balls/strikes called because umpires can't see through catchers.

A consistent strike zone means more to me than an accurate strike zone. In the ump scorecard posted above, the umpire was 96% consistent calling balls/strikes. Robo umps aren't perfect right now as camera angles and locations vary a bit from stadium to stadium, and hitters vary their batting stances a bit.

Posted

Umpiring is so difficult, with everything happening so fast & try to get it right. There is human bias bigger teams are favored over smaller ones,  vets especially popular ones get favored over rookies, each ump calls strikes & balls differently. Raunchy fans can pressure umps to make a certain call. Miss calls make a lot of difference for the pitcher or batters in leverage, Managers & players can't argue strikes & balls. Some say it's entertaining to watch managers argue but it doesn't pay & the ump can get it in for you. The electronic strike zone will eliminate human error & make it uniform. I prefer fairness more some crazy form of entertainment. If you like to be entertained maybe they can direct an allstar-wrestling match with a fake manager fake pile driving a fake umpire at the 7th inning stretch.

You have human error yet  I've watched replays believing it was one way & yet HQ called it the other. Sometimes even replays it's difficult to get it right. IMO we need to eliminate human error as much as possible. That's means eliminating as much as possible referees' errors & absolute dictating.

 

Posted

Yup, I saw the replay of Boone getting the bum call. The guy in the standing was the problem, no doubt. Sorry, but I laughed at that one. For all the calls the Yankees have got, they got one back on them that day. Somebody needs to buy the ump a couple beers and say good call.

Posted

No.  That stiff Wendelstadt that threw out Boone needs to go.  Him and Gardy went at it for years.  He is not a bad ump, just not a good one.  CB Bucknor and Angel Hernandez should be shipped out permanently.  I know umpiring is tough.  I don't mind the truly borderline pitches going one way or another.  But the obvious ones blown bother me.  Umpires egos are way out of line.  The umpires I respect are the ones that maybe will apologize to the pitcher or hitter later saying he missed the call or at least explaining to them what he saw on the pitch.  I have no sympathy though for players getting called out on a pitch that could have gone either way.  Home plate umpiring does need to improve.

Posted

They aren't doing the challenge system and robo umps in the minors for nothing. It's only a matter of time before it comes to MLB and I'm all for it, to make everything consistent and fair (no more favoring the veterans and discriminating against the newcomers). You can see that many rookies know what the real strike zone is and then it's like they are playing a different game when they get to MLB umping.

Posted
4 hours ago, BobAzar said:

Humans are going to miss calls, we can debate using robo-umps for that. BUT, yelling at an injured player to get off the field, tossing a manager (even Boone) for something a fan yelled, then refusing to acknowledge that you made a mistake are not acceptable. I think my issue is that there appears to be no consequences for this type of behavior. Umpires are never seemingly punished for their behavior (not blown calls, those are errors and happen), that seems to be the bigger issue. 

Umps arent punished because the union they belong to does the punishing.  In short they are not going to punish themselves.

Posted

Probably some of both. Also, some just trying to do the best job they can. Pretty much like most other professions. 

Posted

Umps have an almost impossible job. To be fair, they are generally good. The box we see on TV isn't considered accurate 100%, and there is about an inch or so allowance in reviews in regard to accuracy. I can a accept that. I don't hate the human element to the game. I see very close, borderline pitches called against and for our beloved Twins.

All I've ever wanted is consistency from an umpire. Some are. Some aren't. Some even change their zone later in games. Unfortunately, there is little to no repercussions for the truly bad or inconsistent umpires. (Why is Angel Hernandez still employed?) Tossing a manager for a loud fan, or yelling at an injured player to get off the field is inexcusable.

I Ike the milb challenge system. It's quick and concise and seems to work. I'm not yet sold on the robot ump system as there is a TON of X-Y-Z in pitches thrown that hasn't been ironed out yet, IMO, from what I've seen, read, and heard. JUST AS AN EXAMPLE, Wallner may strike out quite a bit as a power hitter, but he's also a disciplined hitter who knows the zone and works the count. Julien the same. But Wallner, in this example, has been jobbed a few times earlier in the season letting a pitch or two or three go by based on what he believed to be a ball, only to end up being a strike, or a punch out. 

Baseball is hard enough without having two differing strike zones. I believe at SOME POINT, the robo ump method may be accurate enough to implement it. And it will require adjustments for EVERYONE, not just rookies and young players, but veterans as well. I just don't feel it's ready for MLB yet. I think the challenge system comes in to play first. One step at a time. 

Posted

1. Umps could do so much for themselves if they would just drop the egos and admit when they screwed up. To me, the most egregious thing about the Boone ejection was Wendelstedt telling him "You're probably right, but I don't care!" Just admit when you screw up and apologize, and players, coaches, and fans will all start to give you more grace when they see some humility and contrition. I'll never forget Jim Joyce and Armando Galaraga meeting at home plate the next day and Joyce nearly in tears. I gained a ton of respect for Joyce right there. 

2. We have the technology to get balls and strikes consistently right. There is no excuse to not use it.

3. I like the idea (I think it was DeGrom?) of official umpire evaluations being made public and at the end of the year the bottom 5% are relegated to AAA and the top AAA umps promoted.

Posted
13 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

So much history in the relationships between players/coaches and umpires.  Things are changing so fast right now, umpires, especially the older ones, are having a hard time adjusting.

If you have never seen rugby officials interact with the players, watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43AdWFSXhgs

Rugby is extremely violent and aggressive, yet watch how both sides interact with each other.  You will never look at baseball officiating the same.

But these conversations are happening in baseball too.  Before, during and after the games, they have the same umps for a series.  I'll have the same teams 3 straight days in youth ball as well.  These conversations are had.  The slow flow of baseball makes a lot of altercations seem sudden but almost every one of them is a slow burn boiled over.

Posted

If I could get one thing out of this conversation it would be to remove that stupid box from the telecasts.  It is probably 90% of the reason we are in the position we are in.  It's not official in any way, not at all accurate but accurate enough so the fan thinks it means something, not standard by network and doesn't adjust from Altuve to Judge.  It's an F'in abomination.

I'm a working umpire, about 100 plate games a year, working mostly 12-14u travel ball.  I'm not trying to make a career, or even anything more than beer money doing it.  I have one of those super fancy suburban baseball complexs within walking distance and I love ball and working with the kids.  Last Sunday, I had to intervene after my partner tossed a dadfan and when I told him the game would not continue until he left the complex he told me he would be waiting for me in the parking lot.  (A true first for me) 

Five games later, behind the plate for a semifinal, I stone blew a tag at the plate.  During a comeback when they were down two.  I was in good position and I called what I saw.  I remember being stunned by how fast the ball came in from centerfield and while the catcher had to reach for the catch and swipe tag I had the throw making up the time and called out.  After reflection and discussion with my partner, I'm pretty sure I missed it, but not nearly by as much as the fans thought.  The accuracy of the throw and catcher motion made it look horrible, but I'm confident on replay most would say "whoa, much closer than I thought."  The fans were already on me as they had a pitcher that couldn't control his body language and they were not happy.  I don't think my pending parking lot date effected my performance, but I'm pretty sure the jeering in this game did.

As an aside, I'm sure all the parents out there always act out on whatever body language their kids exhibit, right?

The reality was that it was one bratty 14yo that hadn't been taught not to upstage an umpire.  I'm good with the zone I called for him, but if he disagrees on a pitch here or there fine-next pitch.  Honestly, I would have been perfectly justified to eject him, but I'm not here for an ump show either.

At this point, you must be thinking what the heck does any of this have to do with MLB umpiring?  For one, they are humans and are effected by the same things we all are.  I certainly agree that some need to go.  There are enough good umps working that the "not good" ones need cycled out.  We do have the tech to do that and it doesn't need to be public.

For another, I want everyone to look at that stupid strike zone box on your screen and think of it as a bratty 14yo that wants to cause trouble.  When the 14 yo gets worked up, the fans get worked up, when the fans get to feeling their oats they say things they don't mean and umpires get rattled and make bad calls.

When fans see an inaccurate measurement, they get worked up.   For the MLB strike zone, at least, MLB allowing an inaccurate representation of the zone has unnecessarily cost them credibility.   Everything else is downstream of that.

I like the umpire scorecard account as much, probably more, than anyone.  But if you can look at a scorecard for a game that Altuve and Judge both played in and say something about that umpires zone as displayed on a static square, I don't know what else to say.

Posted
7 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

that stupid strike zone

Would you say the strike zone box is accurate on the inside and outside pitches? It's the top and bottom that need adjusting to the hitter? I think many of us on TD are okay when a call goes the wrong way if it's a borderline call. These MLB umps are professionals and miss some that are two ball widths off the plate. As a one time ump, I wanted to get the call right and would have gladly welcomed technology to fix my mistakes.

I umpired one year (9 and 10 year olds) and coached kids 5-15 year-olds for many years. At the level I umpired, the coaches were most of the problem. They usually teamed the adults with a teenager. Most of the coaches knew me from me coaching and maybe that skewed things. I would make a bad call and hear nothing. My teenage partner would make the right call and they would get on him, probably figuring they could get calls to go their way later. I would immediately stop and warn the coach. That stopped it right there. 

I loved coaching 9-12 year-olds, especially 11 and 12. 13-15 year-olds, no thanks, especially those on the travel team.

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
8 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

If I could get one thing out of this conversation it would be to remove that stupid box from the telecasts.  It is probably 90% of the reason we are in the position we are in.  It's not official in any way, not at all accurate but accurate enough so the fan thinks it means something, not standard by network and doesn't adjust from Altuve to Judge.  It's an F'in abomination.

 

Concur.

Concurconcurconcur.

 

 

 

Posted
8 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

If I could get one thing out of this conversation it would be to remove that stupid box from the telecasts.  It is probably 90% of the reason we are in the position we are in.  It's not official in any way, not at all accurate but accurate enough so the fan thinks it means something, not standard by network and doesn't adjust from Altuve to Judge.  It's an F'in abomination.

I'm a working umpire, about 100 plate games a year, working mostly 12-14u travel ball.  I'm not trying to make a career, or even anything more than beer money doing it.  I have one of those super fancy suburban baseball complexs within walking distance and I love ball and working with the kids.  Last Sunday, I had to intervene after my partner tossed a dadfan and when I told him the game would not continue until he left the complex he told me he would be waiting for me in the parking lot.  (A true first for me) 

Five games later, behind the plate for a semifinal, I stone blew a tag at the plate.  During a comeback when they were down two.  I was in good position and I called what I saw.  I remember being stunned by how fast the ball came in from centerfield and while the catcher had to reach for the catch and swipe tag I had the throw making up the time and called out.  After reflection and discussion with my partner, I'm pretty sure I missed it, but not nearly by as much as the fans thought.  The accuracy of the throw and catcher motion made it look horrible, but I'm confident on replay most would say "whoa, much closer than I thought."  The fans were already on me as they had a pitcher that couldn't control his body language and they were not happy.  I don't think my pending parking lot date effected my performance, but I'm pretty sure the jeering in this game did.

As an aside, I'm sure all the parents out there always act out on whatever body language their kids exhibit, right?

The reality was that it was one bratty 14yo that hadn't been taught not to upstage an umpire.  I'm good with the zone I called for him, but if he disagrees on a pitch here or there fine-next pitch.  Honestly, I would have been perfectly justified to eject him, but I'm not here for an ump show either.

At this point, you must be thinking what the heck does any of this have to do with MLB umpiring?  For one, they are humans and are effected by the same things we all are.  I certainly agree that some need to go.  There are enough good umps working that the "not good" ones need cycled out.  We do have the tech to do that and it doesn't need to be public.

For another, I want everyone to look at that stupid strike zone box on your screen and think of it as a bratty 14yo that wants to cause trouble.  When the 14 yo gets worked up, the fans get worked up, when the fans get to feeling their oats they say things they don't mean and umpires get rattled and make bad calls.

When fans see an inaccurate measurement, they get worked up.   For the MLB strike zone, at least, MLB allowing an inaccurate representation of the zone has unnecessarily cost them credibility.   Everything else is downstream of that.

I like the umpire scorecard account as much, probably more, than anyone.  But if you can look at a scorecard for a game that Altuve and Judge both played in and say something about that umpires zone as displayed on a static square, I don't know what else to say.

I agree with you about the box on TV. It’s not the one umps are graded upon. Who knows what the umpire scorecard is using. If this is going to be shown it needs to be the one the umps are graded on. I believe the one they are graded on has a small buffer zone around the plate where either call is acceptable which is different than the box on TV. A week or so ago Angel had the plate for the Twins. According to the box on TV he did well - I only saw a couple misses during the 7 innings I watched. Another poster posted the umpire scorecard the next morning and it wasn’t very good. I think the other big change is that hitters will take borderline pitches with two strikes. The just about guarantees that someone is going to be mad. When hitters protected the plate with two strikes there were fewer of these situations. 

Posted

Umpiring is an impossible job. Always a best guess. This I agree on. So why do it? Love of the game? Somebody has to do it? It certainly has a power element, no matter how one jockeys around it. They don't guess who touches the wall first in a swimming race anymore. Why? Because there is a better way. It really is that simple. Why baseball thinks the umpire is the human element to embrace instead of the best possible way available to make it right for the players, even if that isn't perfect either, blows me away. 

I hate the close missed calls the most. The horrible ones just make the umpire look stupid and silly, especially when they are so proud. And the higher level it is, the more proud they become, embracing the circle of power that they have signed on to wield. They never apologize. Just double down, all proud and puffy. The close calls are the ones the pitcher and batter deserve the most! The human element of being able to make the perfect pitch or take. That is the excellence that makes the game the most special to me. That is the human element to showcase, not the umpire that is just guessing. To be robbed by a lesser human guesser instead of using what is readily available and better, even if it is a tiny bit better, is not embracing showcasing the player's talents. It is robbing the game at the MLB and professional level. There will always be folks that like to be a part of the game and umpire little league, and amateur levels, and we need them. I umpired at a low level for about a year, many years ago. I have known the power. The control. The mad parents, and coaches, and especially the coaches that had their own kids on the team, and I really couldn't blame them. I also admit that it is impossible and I was always giving it my best guess. A guess. I embrace ways to make the game better, and give the human element to the players, and not an umpire, especially at the MLB level, where there is all the money available to do it.

Posted

Another reason for electronic strike zone is now catcher are catchers are catching closer to the plate to get more strikes. Because of this Conteras broke his arm. If we have an electronic strike zone that won't happen & will prevent future injuries

Posted

This is the second year of Full ABS and the challenge system in AAA. Both versions work amazingly and either version would cure the issues that you reported as far as balls and strikes and instant correction.  Hope to see it in thr Bigs soon!!

Posted
14 hours ago, FlyingFinn said:

Would you say the strike zone box is accurate on the inside and outside pitches? It's the top and bottom that need adjusting to the hitter? I think many of us on TD are okay when a call goes the wrong way if it's a borderline call. These MLB umps are professionals and miss some that are two ball widths off the plate. As a one time ump, I wanted to get the call right and would have gladly welcomed technology to fix my mistakes.

I umpired one year (9 and 10 year olds) and coached kids 5-15 year-olds for many years. At the level I umpired, the coaches were most of the problem. They usually teamed the adults with a teenager. Most of the coaches knew me from me coaching and maybe that skewed things. I would make a bad call and hear nothing. My teenage partner would make the right call and they would get on him, probably figuring they could get calls to go their way later. I would immediately stop and warn the coach. That stopped it right there. 

I loved coaching 9-12 year-olds, especially 11 and 12. 13-15 year-olds, no thanks, especially those on the travel team.

I don't know about coaching, but the umpiring gets easier as the skill level increases.  In short, anticipating what a 14yo will do is very hard in the best conditions.  When they aren't very good at baseball, they throw it weird places, struggle with pitching control (lobbed pitches are the worst) and the parents don't really know what they are cheering for.   I think this has some effects at the MLB level as well,  When the highest level pitchers are constantly coming up with new pitches, sweepers/103, it's pretty tough to anticipate what crazy pitch you might see.  Not an excuse, they need scouting reports as much as anyone, but it makes it tougher.

The sides of the that stupid strike zone box are only as accurate as the tech in the truck can make it.  The camera angle will distort it and you'd be amazed how many fans think the ball has to be in the box for a strike.  I'd bet the evaluation box is plate plus a ball width on each side but the TV box tries to be plate size.  I'd love to get some tech so I can learn where I'm good and not.

Don't get me started on coaches/fans and what they will try to put over on my teenage or college age partners compared to what they will try with me.  I'm a grown man, and carry 250lbs pretty well.  I've got a grumpy biker look even as a big teddy bear.  The difference between my conversations with coaches compared to the crap they try to put over on a 17yo partner makes me want to break things.  Being willing to take advantage of someone just because you think you can is a red line for me.

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